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From: Dawid Weglinski <dawid.weglinski@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:11:42 +0200
Message-ID: <CADj72HzY6_RDSQMMmrMaxCS7DN75k01gf=JZ2HX=FhxTWAdMDA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Mailing list moderation and community openness
To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
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2018-03-27 18:39 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote:
> > Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is about openness vs. isolation.
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welcome
> >> contributions.
> >
> > Closing of the mailing list does not sound like that.
> >
>
> Sure, but it is actually part of the motivation.
>
> Consider this scenario.
>
> Fred is a community member. Fred consistently harasses and trolls new
> contributors in private. New contributors end up leaving because of
> Fred.
> Fred gets booted out as a result. No mention is made of why Fred as
> booted out, because everything happened in private.
>
And how this work on forums? Do moderators have the ability to ban Fred
for his harrasments on private channels?
>
> Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out
> without reason. Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the
> leadership on something. People start arguing endlessly about
> openness.
>
Very same efect you will get when Fred is whitelisted by a developer, and
kicked out when he starts acting inappriopriate. Please kindly show me the
difference.
>
> Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors
> aren't getting driven away. They can't explain that because then they
> create potential civil liability for the project. The problem is that
> the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and
> now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away.
>
Please explain. I can imagine a troll on some #gentoo-${ISO3166-1_alpha-2}
who
is banned by channel operator. Does this create potential civil liability
for the project?
>
> What solution would you propose for this problem? It isn't
> hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where
> this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the
> only one.
>
Saying as an ex-dev and community member by last 12 years - banning trolls
and explaining reasons to others is always better solution.
>
> > And anyway, you can be sure that the problem will appear again,
> > no matter how closed the list will be.
>
> Sure, but we can at least force the negative advertising of Gentoo to
> go elsewhere, rather than basically paying to run a negative PR
> campaign against ourselves.
>
> >> A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these
> >> debates probably are well-intended.
> >
> > Taking away freedom is never justified by good intention.
>
> You might want to choose a BSD-based distro then. :)
>
> And what about the freedom to endlessly troll and harass you and
> others? Is this truly a freedom we want to stand for? How about the
> freedom to harass members of legally-protected classes (something that
> also has happened historically in the community)?
>
Trolls are trolls, and when banned/blacklisted by default THEN, they will
start
their trolling on private channels.
>
> Surely Gentoo's mission isn't to run completely unrestricated forums
> for discussion of anything and everything. Our main purpose here is
> to maintain a Linux distro, not provide a platform for anybody who has
> an opinion on anything. Free expression has to be balanced against
> the interests of people who want to actually contribute to the distro
> without being endlessly trolled and harassed.
>
> --
> Rich
>
>
--=20
Pozdrawiam
Dawid W=C4=99gli=C5=84ski
--001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2018=
-03-27 18:39 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto=
:rich0@gentoo.org" target=3D"_blank">rich0@gentoo.org</a>></span>:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"gmail-">On T=
ue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Martin Vaeth <<a href=3D"mailto:martin@mva=
th.de">martin@mvath.de</a>> wrote:<br>
> Rich Freeman <<a href=3D"mailto:rich0@gentoo.org">rich0@gentoo.org<=
/a>> wrote:<br>
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth <<a href=3D"mailt=
o:martin@mvath.de">martin@mvath.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> It is about openness vs. isolation.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welc=
ome<br>
>> contributions.<br>
><br>
> Closing of the mailing list does not sound like that.<br>
><br>
<br>
</span>Sure, but it is actually part of the motivation.<br>
<br>
Consider this scenario.<br>
<br>
Fred is a community member.=C2=A0 Fred consistently harasses and trolls new=
<br>
contributors in private.=C2=A0 New contributors end up leaving because of<b=
r>
Fred.</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Fred gets booted out as a result.=C2=A0 No mention is made of why Fred as<b=
r>
booted out, because everything happened in private.<br></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgro=
und-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-co=
lor:initial;float:none;display:inline">And how this work on forums?=C2=A0</=
span>=C2=A0Do moderators have the ability to ban Fred</div><div>for his har=
rasments on private channels?</div><div>=C2=A0
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out<br>
without reason.=C2=A0 Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the<br>
leadership on something.=C2=A0 People start arguing endlessly about<br>
openness.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Very same efect you will get =
when Fred is whitelisted by a developer, and</div><div>kicked out when he s=
tarts acting inappriopriate. Please kindly show me the difference.</div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors<br>
aren't getting driven away.=C2=A0 They can't explain that because t=
hen they<br>
create potential civil liability for the project.=C2=A0 The problem is that=
<br>
the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and<br>
now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away.<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Please explain. I can imagine a troll on some #g=
entoo-${ISO3166-1_alpha-2} who</div><div>is banned by channel operator. Doe=
s this create potential civil liability for the project?</div><div>=C2=A0</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
What solution would you propose for this problem?=C2=A0 It isn't<br>
hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where<br=
>
this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the<=
br>
only one.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Saying as an ex-dev and commu=
nity member by last 12 years - banning trolls</div><div>and explaining reas=
ons to others is always better solution.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
> And anyway, you can be sure that the problem will appear again,<br>
> no matter how closed the list will be.<br>
<br>
</span>Sure, but we can at least force the negative advertising of Gentoo t=
o<br>
go elsewhere, rather than basically paying to run a negative PR<br>
campaign against ourselves.<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
>> A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these<=
br>
>> debates probably are well-intended.<br>
><br>
> Taking away freedom is never justified by good intention.<br>
<br>
</span>You might want to choose a BSD-based distro then.=C2=A0 :)<br>
<br>
And what about the freedom to endlessly troll and harass you and<br>
others?=C2=A0 Is this truly a freedom we want to stand for?=C2=A0 How about=
the<br>
freedom to harass members of legally-protected classes (something that<br>
also has happened historically in the community)?<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>Trolls are trolls, and when banned/blacklisted by default THEN, =
they will start</div><div>their trolling on private channels.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Surely Gentoo's mission isn't to run completely unrestricated forum=
s<br>
for discussion of anything and everything.=C2=A0 Our main purpose here is<b=
r>
to maintain a Linux distro, not provide a platform for anybody who has<br>
an opinion on anything.=C2=A0 Free expression has to be balanced against<br=
>
the interests of people who want to actually contribute to the distro<br>
without being endlessly trolled and harassed.<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
Rich<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Poz=
drawiam<br><div>Dawid W=C4=99gli=C5=84ski</div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>
--001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188--