From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 642071382C5 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:11:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A489E0993; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:11:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-io0-x22d.google.com (mail-io0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87206E097A for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:11:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-io0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o4so2119687iod.3 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:11:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sAMzsO5kQDIrh0zKcyKFbbYsk80ir0A4b9SjuC0dfYQ=; b=nfYeCuJ8dzh8DTcFSL7uX7Gf6UG9VAJTGlK/VI+GFZp5km8JEVVLx2/IFCDEsW8jsS V4jQdPr3PGOz8D3ZxjftJds8qTKauoZ613KOo7/mGtASEBbRf0TuQZ8KqLkzFXf4hQT0 xVH4FvCXeT2yrQ8NoUmdc+ntHFUcDVxxgMW2akwiwCTRUWJa+7TZ7AhqE3YGo9i4uJso NxVPYwLaNxlgZIycGx/SeenLuiwxvG1NYsYzhR3ZqfOdcnhWNGa99d2h2ENOKSMCjOIF 2fvwb7PLGtvJKo3EvcHl0/TeTxzDxWGOmBTYzfmMGNzuniIkW6dAvRQD2c6JIRjVc5d2 Ib3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=sAMzsO5kQDIrh0zKcyKFbbYsk80ir0A4b9SjuC0dfYQ=; b=Xz7wCCDmBjVDk6nTRJUNnYBs7EXYbZltOIyCbRnlbTcWj00yGEq7srVP9kTP2F0F3b kPwhXpOaEHKagxfHZOHIw+Fr0/qBvB+AaJX7OhUba3BFzqRS99yOKx7oN58hZPY7ARBc U0ojXwpdplHxT7LLvLwFyvnwNcsp0Zlm7bQ0TniWXdutQ088C1f3yXrfKtSUdDvasp9+ vsoxd3QWKSajlDf7+bxPgBwDUGY/1pKFhFaDE0jWg3KXooBZCjsdFCxnGjzsFEPxPydq ZPYtF0jf7mc5d/rGg8UCT+5elAKDUSmnLFQmr/cNxqhErtRiOfNJ4qFFtxA3bjT4lOKW su0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7E7D1Vs7SKlrfaaK0IX+Nxtx67rG+Ac0BBPJvZpuD9YQtU36kUw JRJ6Ks/AHU/vcYF9zcVdEiLcfoOdv1TimqdEkqUXPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuRpManaPz1r8JBo+D/FIlcIdrPUWcH0XRij2ccA4Ei28htgfzFWSFi/wps7qQ+4oV1T+F+lj1fnXP8087uqGY= X-Received: by 10.107.6.231 with SMTP id f100mr48879223ioi.23.1522217503399; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.154.6 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:11:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <0818a5b0-cc1e-403f-6c08-1285999de30f@gentoo.org> <20180320160316.GA5785@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <87605qs3pi.fsf@gentoo.org> From: Dawid Weglinski Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:11:42 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Mailing list moderation and community openness To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188" X-Archives-Salt: fb3e99de-16e0-42fc-8322-1d10e5ab6643 X-Archives-Hash: 495f5fe575fb2280af9f7195fdaaf600 --001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-03-27 18:39 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman : > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Martin Vaeth wrote: > > Rich Freeman wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth wrote: > >>> > >>> It is about openness vs. isolation. > >> > >> I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welcome > >> contributions. > > > > Closing of the mailing list does not sound like that. > > > > Sure, but it is actually part of the motivation. > > Consider this scenario. > > Fred is a community member. Fred consistently harasses and trolls new > contributors in private. New contributors end up leaving because of > Fred. > Fred gets booted out as a result. No mention is made of why Fred as > booted out, because everything happened in private. > And how this work on forums? Do moderators have the ability to ban Fred for his harrasments on private channels? > > Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out > without reason. Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the > leadership on something. People start arguing endlessly about > openness. > Very same efect you will get when Fred is whitelisted by a developer, and kicked out when he starts acting inappriopriate. Please kindly show me the difference. > > Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors > aren't getting driven away. They can't explain that because then they > create potential civil liability for the project. The problem is that > the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and > now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away. > Please explain. I can imagine a troll on some #gentoo-${ISO3166-1_alpha-2} who is banned by channel operator. Does this create potential civil liability for the project? > > What solution would you propose for this problem? It isn't > hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where > this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the > only one. > Saying as an ex-dev and community member by last 12 years - banning trolls and explaining reasons to others is always better solution. > > > And anyway, you can be sure that the problem will appear again, > > no matter how closed the list will be. > > Sure, but we can at least force the negative advertising of Gentoo to > go elsewhere, rather than basically paying to run a negative PR > campaign against ourselves. > > >> A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these > >> debates probably are well-intended. > > > > Taking away freedom is never justified by good intention. > > You might want to choose a BSD-based distro then. :) > > And what about the freedom to endlessly troll and harass you and > others? Is this truly a freedom we want to stand for? How about the > freedom to harass members of legally-protected classes (something that > also has happened historically in the community)? > Trolls are trolls, and when banned/blacklisted by default THEN, they will start their trolling on private channels. > > Surely Gentoo's mission isn't to run completely unrestricated forums > for discussion of anything and everything. Our main purpose here is > to maintain a Linux distro, not provide a platform for anybody who has > an opinion on anything. Free expression has to be balanced against > the interests of people who want to actually contribute to the distro > without being endlessly trolled and harassed. > > -- > Rich > > --=20 Pozdrawiam Dawid W=C4=99gli=C5=84ski --001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2018= -03-27 18:39 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>:
On T= ue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org<= /a>> wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is about openness vs. isolation.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welc= ome
>> contributions.
>
> Closing of the mailing list does not sound like that.
>

Sure, but it is actually part of the motivation.

Consider this scenario.

Fred is a community member.=C2=A0 Fred consistently harasses and trolls new=
contributors in private.=C2=A0 New contributors end up leaving because of Fred.

Fred gets booted out as a result.=C2=A0 No mention is made of why Fred as booted out, because everything happened in private.
And how this work on forums?=C2=A0=C2=A0Do moderators have the ability to ban Fred
for his har= rasments on private channels?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out
without reason.=C2=A0 Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the
leadership on something.=C2=A0 People start arguing endlessly about
openness.

Very same efect you will get = when Fred is whitelisted by a developer, and
kicked out when he s= tarts acting inappriopriate. Please kindly show me the difference.
=C2=A0

Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors
aren't getting driven away.=C2=A0 They can't explain that because t= hen they
create potential civil liability for the project.=C2=A0 The problem is that=
the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and
now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away.

Please explain. I can imagine a troll on some #g= entoo-${ISO3166-1_alpha-2} who
is banned by channel operator. Doe= s this create potential civil liability for the project?
=C2=A0

What solution would you propose for this problem?=C2=A0 It isn't
hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the<= br> only one.

Saying as an ex-dev and commu= nity member by last 12 years - banning trolls
and explaining reas= ons to others is always better solution.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

> And anyway, you can be sure that the problem will appear again,
> no matter how closed the list will be.

Sure, but we can at least force the negative advertising of Gentoo t= o
go elsewhere, rather than basically paying to run a negative PR
campaign against ourselves.

>> A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these<= br> >> debates probably are well-intended.
>
> Taking away freedom is never justified by good intention.

You might want to choose a BSD-based distro then.=C2=A0 :)

And what about the freedom to endlessly troll and harass you and
others?=C2=A0 Is this truly a freedom we want to stand for?=C2=A0 How about= the
freedom to harass members of legally-protected classes (something that
also has happened historically in the community)?

=
Trolls are trolls, and when banned/blacklisted by default THEN, = they will start
their trolling on private channels.
=C2= =A0

Surely Gentoo's mission isn't to run completely unrestricated forum= s
for discussion of anything and everything.=C2=A0 Our main purpose here is to maintain a Linux distro, not provide a platform for anybody who has
an opinion on anything.=C2=A0 Free expression has to be balanced against the interests of people who want to actually contribute to the distro
without being endlessly trolled and harassed.

--
Rich




--
Poz= drawiam
Dawid W=C4=99gli=C5=84ski
--001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188--