From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <gentoo-dev+bounces-84298-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org> Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 642071382C5 for <garchives@archives.gentoo.org>; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:11:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A489E0993; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:11:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-io0-x22d.google.com (mail-io0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87206E097A for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:11:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-io0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o4so2119687iod.3 for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:11:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sAMzsO5kQDIrh0zKcyKFbbYsk80ir0A4b9SjuC0dfYQ=; b=nfYeCuJ8dzh8DTcFSL7uX7Gf6UG9VAJTGlK/VI+GFZp5km8JEVVLx2/IFCDEsW8jsS V4jQdPr3PGOz8D3ZxjftJds8qTKauoZ613KOo7/mGtASEBbRf0TuQZ8KqLkzFXf4hQT0 xVH4FvCXeT2yrQ8NoUmdc+ntHFUcDVxxgMW2akwiwCTRUWJa+7TZ7AhqE3YGo9i4uJso NxVPYwLaNxlgZIycGx/SeenLuiwxvG1NYsYzhR3ZqfOdcnhWNGa99d2h2ENOKSMCjOIF 2fvwb7PLGtvJKo3EvcHl0/TeTxzDxWGOmBTYzfmMGNzuniIkW6dAvRQD2c6JIRjVc5d2 Ib3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=sAMzsO5kQDIrh0zKcyKFbbYsk80ir0A4b9SjuC0dfYQ=; b=Xz7wCCDmBjVDk6nTRJUNnYBs7EXYbZltOIyCbRnlbTcWj00yGEq7srVP9kTP2F0F3b kPwhXpOaEHKagxfHZOHIw+Fr0/qBvB+AaJX7OhUba3BFzqRS99yOKx7oN58hZPY7ARBc U0ojXwpdplHxT7LLvLwFyvnwNcsp0Zlm7bQ0TniWXdutQ088C1f3yXrfKtSUdDvasp9+ vsoxd3QWKSajlDf7+bxPgBwDUGY/1pKFhFaDE0jWg3KXooBZCjsdFCxnGjzsFEPxPydq ZPYtF0jf7mc5d/rGg8UCT+5elAKDUSmnLFQmr/cNxqhErtRiOfNJ4qFFtxA3bjT4lOKW su0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7E7D1Vs7SKlrfaaK0IX+Nxtx67rG+Ac0BBPJvZpuD9YQtU36kUw JRJ6Ks/AHU/vcYF9zcVdEiLcfoOdv1TimqdEkqUXPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuRpManaPz1r8JBo+D/FIlcIdrPUWcH0XRij2ccA4Ei28htgfzFWSFi/wps7qQ+4oV1T+F+lj1fnXP8087uqGY= X-Received: by 10.107.6.231 with SMTP id f100mr48879223ioi.23.1522217503399; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org> List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-dev+help@lists.gentoo.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-dev+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-dev+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-dev.gentoo.org> X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.154.6 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:11:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <CAGfcS_=wy70mVWtNCBCruWy-eA1TdKYGxX7VA6jWHTrAEcW_3g@mail.gmail.com> References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <0818a5b0-cc1e-403f-6c08-1285999de30f@gentoo.org> <20180320160316.GA5785@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <87605qs3pi.fsf@gentoo.org> <CAGfcS_nfVWtaq6cJz2m_-OB2+poVmxeYWi3sgUY9qHoxoKQWrg@mail.gmail.com> <p9cs5i$co7$1@blaine.gmane.org> <CAGfcS_kHOjnESQRsiQrifyipV6i2OHVo=fXRBcjM5+qKtJ6Dpg@mail.gmail.com> <p9dqgr$67b$1@blaine.gmane.org> <CAGfcS_=wy70mVWtNCBCruWy-eA1TdKYGxX7VA6jWHTrAEcW_3g@mail.gmail.com> From: Dawid Weglinski <dawid.weglinski@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:11:42 +0200 Message-ID: <CADj72HzY6_RDSQMMmrMaxCS7DN75k01gf=JZ2HX=FhxTWAdMDA@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Mailing list moderation and community openness To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188" X-Archives-Salt: fb3e99de-16e0-42fc-8322-1d10e5ab6643 X-Archives-Hash: 495f5fe575fb2280af9f7195fdaaf600 --001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-03-27 18:39 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>: > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote: > > Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> wrote: > >>> > >>> It is about openness vs. isolation. > >> > >> I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welcome > >> contributions. > > > > Closing of the mailing list does not sound like that. > > > > Sure, but it is actually part of the motivation. > > Consider this scenario. > > Fred is a community member. Fred consistently harasses and trolls new > contributors in private. New contributors end up leaving because of > Fred. > Fred gets booted out as a result. No mention is made of why Fred as > booted out, because everything happened in private. > And how this work on forums? Do moderators have the ability to ban Fred for his harrasments on private channels? > > Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out > without reason. Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the > leadership on something. People start arguing endlessly about > openness. > Very same efect you will get when Fred is whitelisted by a developer, and kicked out when he starts acting inappriopriate. Please kindly show me the difference. > > Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors > aren't getting driven away. They can't explain that because then they > create potential civil liability for the project. The problem is that > the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and > now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away. > Please explain. I can imagine a troll on some #gentoo-${ISO3166-1_alpha-2} who is banned by channel operator. Does this create potential civil liability for the project? > > What solution would you propose for this problem? It isn't > hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where > this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the > only one. > Saying as an ex-dev and community member by last 12 years - banning trolls and explaining reasons to others is always better solution. > > > And anyway, you can be sure that the problem will appear again, > > no matter how closed the list will be. > > Sure, but we can at least force the negative advertising of Gentoo to > go elsewhere, rather than basically paying to run a negative PR > campaign against ourselves. > > >> A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these > >> debates probably are well-intended. > > > > Taking away freedom is never justified by good intention. > > You might want to choose a BSD-based distro then. :) > > And what about the freedom to endlessly troll and harass you and > others? Is this truly a freedom we want to stand for? How about the > freedom to harass members of legally-protected classes (something that > also has happened historically in the community)? > Trolls are trolls, and when banned/blacklisted by default THEN, they will start their trolling on private channels. > > Surely Gentoo's mission isn't to run completely unrestricated forums > for discussion of anything and everything. Our main purpose here is > to maintain a Linux distro, not provide a platform for anybody who has > an opinion on anything. Free expression has to be balanced against > the interests of people who want to actually contribute to the distro > without being endlessly trolled and harassed. > > -- > Rich > > --=20 Pozdrawiam Dawid W=C4=99gli=C5=84ski --001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2018= -03-27 18:39 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto= :rich0@gentoo.org" target=3D"_blank">rich0@gentoo.org</a>></span>:<br><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le= ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"gmail-">On T= ue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Martin Vaeth <<a href=3D"mailto:martin@mva= th.de">martin@mvath.de</a>> wrote:<br> > Rich Freeman <<a href=3D"mailto:rich0@gentoo.org">rich0@gentoo.org<= /a>> wrote:<br> >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth <<a href=3D"mailt= o:martin@mvath.de">martin@mvath.de</a>> wrote:<br> >>><br> >>> It is about openness vs. isolation.<br> >><br> >> I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welc= ome<br> >> contributions.<br> ><br> > Closing of the mailing list does not sound like that.<br> ><br> <br> </span>Sure, but it is actually part of the motivation.<br> <br> Consider this scenario.<br> <br> Fred is a community member.=C2=A0 Fred consistently harasses and trolls new= <br> contributors in private.=C2=A0 New contributors end up leaving because of<b= r> Fred.</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px= 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> Fred gets booted out as a result.=C2=A0 No mention is made of why Fred as<b= r> booted out, because everything happened in private.<br></blockquote><div><b= r></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-seri= f;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-vari= ant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgro= und-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-co= lor:initial;float:none;display:inline">And how this work on forums?=C2=A0</= span>=C2=A0Do moderators have the ability to ban Fred</div><div>for his har= rasments on private channels?</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out<br> without reason.=C2=A0 Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the<br> leadership on something.=C2=A0 People start arguing endlessly about<br> openness.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Very same efect you will get = when Fred is whitelisted by a developer, and</div><div>kicked out when he s= tarts acting inappriopriate. Please kindly show me the difference.</div><di= v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px= 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors<br> aren't getting driven away.=C2=A0 They can't explain that because t= hen they<br> create potential civil liability for the project.=C2=A0 The problem is that= <br> the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and<br> now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away.<br></bloc= kquote><div><br></div><div>Please explain. I can imagine a troll on some #g= entoo-${ISO3166-1_alpha-2} who</div><div>is banned by channel operator. Doe= s this create potential civil liability for the project?</div><div>=C2=A0</= div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor= der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> What solution would you propose for this problem?=C2=A0 It isn't<br> hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where<br= > this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the<= br> only one.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Saying as an ex-dev and commu= nity member by last 12 years - banning trolls</div><div>and explaining reas= ons to others is always better solution.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><block= quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1= px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <span class=3D"gmail-"><br> > And anyway, you can be sure that the problem will appear again,<br> > no matter how closed the list will be.<br> <br> </span>Sure, but we can at least force the negative advertising of Gentoo t= o<br> go elsewhere, rather than basically paying to run a negative PR<br> campaign against ourselves.<br> <span class=3D"gmail-"><br> >> A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these<= br> >> debates probably are well-intended.<br> ><br> > Taking away freedom is never justified by good intention.<br> <br> </span>You might want to choose a BSD-based distro then.=C2=A0 :)<br> <br> And what about the freedom to endlessly troll and harass you and<br> others?=C2=A0 Is this truly a freedom we want to stand for?=C2=A0 How about= the<br> freedom to harass members of legally-protected classes (something that<br> also has happened historically in the community)?<br></blockquote><div><br>= </div><div>Trolls are trolls, and when banned/blacklisted by default THEN, = they will start</div><div>their trolling on private channels.</div><div>=C2= =A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e= x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> Surely Gentoo's mission isn't to run completely unrestricated forum= s<br> for discussion of anything and everything.=C2=A0 Our main purpose here is<b= r> to maintain a Linux distro, not provide a platform for anybody who has<br> an opinion on anything.=C2=A0 Free expression has to be balanced against<br= > the interests of people who want to actually contribute to the distro<br> without being endlessly trolled and harassed.<br> <span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> --<br> Rich<br> <br> </font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <b= r><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Poz= drawiam<br><div>Dawid W=C4=99gli=C5=84ski</div></div></div></div></div> </div></div> --001a113f9be48fa3bb056872e188--