From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4453138247 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:38:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 388A4E0B37; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:38:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com (mail-pa0-f43.google.com [209.85.220.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02BBEE0B07 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:38:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id fa1so2324162pad.16 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=5N/VXrM3BJk/8ijAGAMcYRZ1GaeJ5+gCACiXMZTxW88=; b=iBEomKM4gv7Hj9oD/7ZQqJyRLqqwjMVU6prsBm+kOefz0dNE02zq33lmGfXEPvTPCm r8gUV8dtUpYc1la82u43zJCrmyucGOgQkuka487esFFMuK8agowgjsMs79N3AtJ0iZBs oqLG3FMN6sJbV5pDEPQcSQedIVy50zE7sit+aAiGjf8iDlI+qkVZRKDhKRu3xrG4xf5w BTcWQE85ywSecTmJ6oUnaY4u4h/4ybRH9NwugxrlqC8b9fmOExBzcYFQaf8ad11mTCX8 LHQjO4raMVXKZs5uqNQ9zsf5bKyENWx82A/CYaQXqLpzIieX8lIxaFB8jUVNZf60w2+A utsg== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.118.129 with SMTP id km1mr2203022pab.127.1384447081879; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: yngwin@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.40.198 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20131113151012.04145837@gentoo.org> <5283948F.1000409@gentoo.org> <52841023.9010208@gentoo.org> <20131114061328.09136f6f@gentoo.org> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 00:38:01 +0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: SATMd3NUwHwBlwyTPNtRKA-anh4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Please consider removing use.stable.mask and package.use.stable.mask From: Ben de Groot To: gentoo-dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Archives-Salt: 1f1c1cb8-fd94-4ae9-afae-c2f717023b59 X-Archives-Hash: b8cfb6ca3d663d10b9fe31eb72a6485d On 14 November 2013 23:12, Rich Freeman wrote: > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: >>> I said >> As it is always happy to point out, Council doesn't see itself as >> leadership, just as a supreme court of appeal, when everything else >> seems to have failed. It likes to get involved as little as possible. > > The last time I talked to Council she said that she doesn't like it > when you anthropomorphize her. > > Certainly I stated in my manifesto that I believe that Council members > SHOULD be leaders, and should not limit their leadership of the distro > to casting votes. That's why we're chatting on a list, and I'm not > sitting back waiting for you to put this issue on a Council agenda. That is nice of you, but many of your fellow councilmen (historically, as well as currently) do not hold similar views, as was made painfully clear to me a few years ago. >>> We >>> also have Comrel, which is a better starting point for cases >>> concerning individuals vs policies. >> >> This also displays little real leadership. It concerns itself with >> conflict resolution, with various degrees of success. (I still have a >> bad taste in my mouth from my past dealings with that institution.) > > Well, that is the role of Comrel. I don't expect it to decide whether > developers can touch each other's ebuilds to add systemd units to > them, etc. However, if the Council establishes a policy then Comrel > should certainly take issue with devs that ignore that policy. Comrel > certainly can show leadership when it comes to how it operates, > facilitating better relations in the community in general, etc. > >> >> The costs are higher than the benefits, in my opinion. Where are the >> use cases for this high-cost solution that is being pushed upon us? > > Where are the costs for this high-cost solution that you purport the > existence of? Just what about this solution is difficult to maintain? > I keep hearing that it is painful, but I haven't seen specific > examples of HOW it is painful. See how much effort is expended on this, and how many maintainers are being involved: https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+multilib I was particularly hit by this as maintainer of freetype, see bugs 455070 and 459352 for some of the mess that could have been avoided. >>> The problem with having top-down leadership in a volunteer-based >>> organization is that it tends to drive away anybody who doesn't agree >>> with the leader. If a supreme leader said "mgorny has the right >>> solution to multilib - everybody is going to work to implement it" >>> that would probably cause more harm than good. Everybody wants a >>> supreme leader until the leader backs something they oppose. >> >> But what's the alternative? Having a few dozen self-appointed leaders >> doing whatever they want, and often taking things in opposing >> directions. It's not top-down leadership, but rule of the strongest. > > When you have officially-appointed leaders they usually tend to be the > same people who would otherwise be the self-appointed leaders. They > just have more power to kick everybody out who disagrees with them. > It is still the rule of the strongest. How did Linus become the > leader of Linux? He wrote it... At least there is one person in charge who sets a clear direction, and is accountable. > I used to get philosophical about things like this, but I think the > model Gentoo has is actually not a bad one. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one then. > In the end, stuff only > gets done if people write code. Your power in any FOSS project really > comes down to your ability to write code or convince others to write > code on your behalf. No, it's more about your ability to commit and get away with it. > We can argue about what piece of software is > conceptually the best, but implemented software will almost always win > over the unimplemented competitor, unless the merits of the competitor > are such that people will flock behind it and actually implement it. > > Rich > -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer