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From: Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:13:16 -0500
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Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev
mailing list
To: Gentoo Dev <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>
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On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:48 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
> On 10/01/18 19:31, Alec Warner wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny <mgorny@gentoo.or=
g> wrote:
>
>> W dniu =C5=9Bro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09=E2=88=B611 -0800, u=C5=BCytkow=
nik Matt Turner
>> napisa=C5=82:
>> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny <mgorny@gentoo=
.org>
>> wrote:
>> > > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17=E2=88=B608 -0800, u=C5=BCytkown=
ik Matt Turner
>> > > napisa=C5=82:
>> > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel <
>> dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to
>> implement
>> > > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
>> > > > >
>> > > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will
>> come into
>> > > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it
>> is now.
>> > > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
>> and
>> > > > > whitelisted additional participants.
>> > > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We
>> intend this
>> > > > > to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
>> > > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour
>> against the
>> > > > > Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting
>> permission.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion =
on
>> > > > > gentoo-dev,
>> > > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask
>> him/her to
>> > > > > forward your message,
>> > > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you
>> whitelisted.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please
>> comment on
>> > > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you
>> are vouching
>> > > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their
>> activity.
>> > > >
>> > > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer
>> acks
>> > > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly
>> unlikely.
>> > > > Then what do we do?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Then it becomes comrel business.
>> >
>> > If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be
>> solved?
>>
>> One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
>> evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case
>> it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his
>> new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
>> positive to post.
>>
>> Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
>> the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.
>>
>
> This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.
>
> https://www.gentoo.org/donate/
>
> Get membership posting privs.
>
> -A
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny
>>
>>
>>
> Do I read a hint of sarcasm there too Alec?! :]
>
As I (attempted badly) to explain on IRC; I don't like this decision. But
ultimately the project elects the council to do stuff like this.
As engineers I think we remain bad at making decisions that are imperfect,
or based on incomplete information. I don't
fault the council for taking action (even action I don't like) because I
believe they felt something had to be done to improve the lists.
No one should be afraid to try something because it might not work; trying
things are how we learn.
-A
--001a1143f734fd3bd00562727faf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:48 PM, M. J. Everitt <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:m.j.everitt@iee.org" target=3D"_blank">m.j.everitt@iee.org<=
/a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div class=3D"h5">
On 10/01/18 19:31, Alec Warner wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM,
Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:=
mgorny@gentoo.org" target=3D"_blank">mgorny@gentoo.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">W dniu =C5=9B=
ro, 10.01.2018
o godzinie 09=E2=88=B611=E2=80=89-0800, u=C5=BCytkownik Matt =
Turner<br>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2020001478440612940gmail-h5">napisa=C5=82:=
<br>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3=
rny
<<a href=3D"mailto:mgorny@gentoo.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mgorny@gentoo.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie
17=E2=88=B608=E2=80=89-0800, u=C5=BCytkownik Matt Turner<=
br>
> > napisa=C5=82:<br>
> > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas
K. Huettel <<a href=3D"mailto:dilfridge@gentoo.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">dilfridge@gentoo.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> > > > During the last Gentoo council
meeting, the decision was made to implement<br>
> > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing
list [1].<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > These changes affect only the
gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come into<br>
> > > > effect on 23 January 2018.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > * Subscribing to the list and
receiving list mail remains as it is now.<br>
> > > > * Posting to the list will only be
possible to Gentoo developers and<br>
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0whitelisted additional
participants.<br>
> > > > * Whitelisting requires that one
developer vouches for you. We intend this<br>
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0to be as unbureaucratic a=
s
possible.<br>
> > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic
posting as well as behaviour against the<br>
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Code of Conduct [2] will =
lead to
revocation of the posting permission.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > If, as a non-developer, you want
to participate in a discussion on<br>
> > > > gentoo-dev,<br>
> > > > - either reply directly to the
author of a list mail and ask him/her to<br>
> > > > forward your message,<br>
> > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of
your choice to get you whitelisted.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > If, as a developer, you want to
have someone whitelisted, please comment on<br>
> > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to
Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are vouching<br>
> > > > for a contributor you are expected
to keep an eye on their activity.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > It seems like the obvious way this
fails is some Gentoo developer acks<br>
> > > one of the problem people. I don't
think that's particularly unlikely.<br>
> > > Then what do we do?<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > Then it becomes comrel business.<br>
><br>
> If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the
problem already be solved?<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
One of the problems mentioned before was that a person
could easily<br>
evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address.
In this case<br>
it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the
vouching for his<br>
new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to
have something<br>
positive to post.<br>
<br>
Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new
people out of<br>
the blue but expecting them to have something to
contribute first.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.gentoo.org/donate/" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.gentoo.org/donate/</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Get membership posting privs.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-A</div>
<div>=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"m_-2020001478440612940gmail-HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"m_-2020001478440612940gmail-h5"><br>
--<br>
Best regards,<br>
Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>
Do I read a hint of sarcasm there too Alec?! :]<br></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>As I (attempted badly) to explain on IRC; I don't li=
ke this decision. But ultimately the project elects the council to do stuff=
like this.</div><div>As engineers I think we remain bad at making decision=
s that are imperfect, or based on incomplete information. I don't</div>=
<div>fault the council for taking action (even action I don't like) bec=
ause I believe they felt something had to be done to improve the lists.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>No one should be afraid to try something because it m=
ight not work; trying things are how we learn.</div><div><br></div><div>-A<=
/div></div></div></div>
--001a1143f734fd3bd00562727faf--