From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69C31138330 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 78DFFE0B0A; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:13:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-vk0-x22b.google.com (mail-vk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 240C4E0AB5 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:13:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id p144so238314vke.11 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:13:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=scriptkitty-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=ZeajJ7FzPNJ80qbjnv1suOXNg3qf69cdkunY9prfbMU=; b=czl99AR5LY4obUnwBg+eH+B+abAvDQ37gzva5t06qrAxoPBytILqPuPcMLq3zcvp45 B0jE0rvUUxNo3VQgAtnCIhW4IvIKg772BatMIgBbPbn4yKjqvDFDP63MrEOXU7DbWcra F5sFdKV/mIx8bpAwyDghAL6u9yiZQ97TWNhfwwTWQe2qaZPDc5WpSlsVHVgj5oRGF1pl //Ay1KMfgpIEA6IDQD2xLOGvXIzXEFOyLJcP97uHSPP0Bn9DIzA1SJKchGL3LWppLlOw N25Gb1eVXcBa9zsdwf8s1Yluoc9B6XLQZbQVwX0IidQ/ROXWE1S2tQmYUxpidD4oABz0 yI3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZeajJ7FzPNJ80qbjnv1suOXNg3qf69cdkunY9prfbMU=; b=bIvTclyZ4Rsbab6XKSy182NEDm0LS2QkO3pv5pDwuFaM0AisEet5sMzk0/0Mw2Ejv/ XL7KBg+xKGJJykieAfzIIKDK3sQyDG52hlKnI848F1W5A92YDju9n+hMUPzKV8ERZYkR QCcI6ZT9rxZyiytSpPQBhtZULLXAbMN8XdjtD3zyZVDZAGnf2A2GSgYypcSb3nuJ/4PB uVB3kKtjMDKU0Qgwyn+efEFCO89KjBXUmjMyEBuv/cQvS2UhqaYEjNWR0zdpSE3U1Piq HyI5ymcqfdW14eMHny2wrxZ4rByugmachRqKXgO1hEVbMG/NkPEgLU+xFZeorPKZmDC7 3wuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytf+MbA0Xe7mawKMIhhol4B69kO1OM6DRkl8KsoXtw41l6pmPR+u H4PH3yeikMud+8lDkFPYelmeKo5Eur2bGRzMdX5lFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBote/gOQbQFSk/AAJGZDUNZ+RXnPD0sFnU257vCZdztwX58Rz/rpLlIwE7nJQOLmVQ1Oe/FvGC86Bx/z9pxTxWs= X-Received: by 10.31.161.215 with SMTP id k206mr17706778vke.82.1515618796638; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:13:16 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: antarus@scriptkitty.com Received: by 10.159.54.141 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:13:16 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2620:0:1003:410:70fb:b96d:b61a:b6c5] In-Reply-To: <5f92dd6c-a051-26f7-744a-a3810deb207f@iee.org> References: <1685019.DAF74n7IXa@pinacolada> <1515578120.1284.5.camel@gentoo.org> <1515611196.1284.15.camel@gentoo.org> <5f92dd6c-a051-26f7-744a-a3810deb207f@iee.org> From: Alec Warner Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:13:16 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mS_PQf7DPvU1J-W9slVU5OqT1-w Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list To: Gentoo Dev Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1143f734fd3bd00562727faf" X-Archives-Salt: 2b510d9e-f09a-47b2-82f8-577fab58ed87 X-Archives-Hash: f001c40277b03add74063c9bdf6e731d --001a1143f734fd3bd00562727faf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:48 PM, M. J. Everitt wrote: > On 10/01/18 19:31, Alec Warner wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: > >> W dniu =C5=9Bro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09=E2=88=B611 -0800, u=C5=BCytkow= nik Matt Turner >> napisa=C5=82: >> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny >> wrote: >> > > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17=E2=88=B608 -0800, u=C5=BCytkown= ik Matt Turner >> > > napisa=C5=82: >> > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel < >> dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote: >> > > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to >> implement >> > > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1]. >> > > > > >> > > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will >> come into >> > > > > effect on 23 January 2018. >> > > > > >> > > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it >> is now. >> > > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers >> and >> > > > > whitelisted additional participants. >> > > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We >> intend this >> > > > > to be as unbureaucratic as possible. >> > > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour >> against the >> > > > > Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting >> permission. >> > > > > >> > > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion = on >> > > > > gentoo-dev, >> > > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask >> him/her to >> > > > > forward your message, >> > > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you >> whitelisted. >> > > > > >> > > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please >> comment on >> > > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you >> are vouching >> > > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their >> activity. >> > > > >> > > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer >> acks >> > > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly >> unlikely. >> > > > Then what do we do? >> > > > >> > > >> > > Then it becomes comrel business. >> > >> > If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be >> solved? >> >> One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily >> evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case >> it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his >> new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something >> positive to post. >> >> Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of >> the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first. >> > > This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity. > > https://www.gentoo.org/donate/ > > Get membership posting privs. > > -A > > >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny >> >> >> > Do I read a hint of sarcasm there too Alec?! :] > As I (attempted badly) to explain on IRC; I don't like this decision. But ultimately the project elects the council to do stuff like this. As engineers I think we remain bad at making decisions that are imperfect, or based on incomplete information. I don't fault the council for taking action (even action I don't like) because I believe they felt something had to be done to improve the lists. No one should be afraid to try something because it might not work; trying things are how we learn. -A --001a1143f734fd3bd00562727faf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:48 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org<= /a>> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 10/01/18 19:31, Alec Warner wrote:
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
W dniu =C5=9B= ro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09=E2=88=B611=E2=80=89-0800, u=C5=BCytkownik Matt = Turner
napisa=C5=82:=
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3= rny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17=E2=88=B608=E2=80=89-0800, u=C5=BCytkownik Matt Turner<= br> > > napisa=C5=82:
> > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to implement
> > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> > > >
> > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come into
> > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
> > > >
> > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0whitelisted additional participants.
> > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0to be as unbureaucratic a= s possible.
> > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Code of Conduct [2] will = lead to revocation of the posting permission.
> > > >
> > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
> > > > gentoo-dev,
> > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to
> > > > forward your message,
> > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
> > > >
> > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please comment on
> > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are vouching
> > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.
> > >
> > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer acks
> > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly unlikely.
> > > Then what do we do?
> > >
> >
> > Then it becomes comrel business.
>
> If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be solved?

One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case
it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his
new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
positive to post.

Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.

This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.


Get membership posting privs.

-A
=C2=A0

--
Best regards,
Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny



Do I read a hint of sarcasm there too Alec?! :]
<= div>
As I (attempted badly) to explain on IRC; I don't li= ke this decision. But ultimately the project elects the council to do stuff= like this.
As engineers I think we remain bad at making decision= s that are imperfect, or based on incomplete information. I don't
=
fault the council for taking action (even action I don't like) bec= ause I believe they felt something had to be done to improve the lists.

No one should be afraid to try something because it m= ight not work; trying things are how we learn.

-A<= /div>
--001a1143f734fd3bd00562727faf--