From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E49F1382C5 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 16:46:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 83180E089B; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 16:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ua0-x22c.google.com (mail-ua0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C0A6E0858 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 16:46:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ua0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id c40so3730972uae.2 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 09:46:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=scriptkitty-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=aD9URAztBETM2hUQzIr0V1GMB5kBV4SsZ426p0lelF8=; b=KeHixenWXtt6vu/VLAhtUXR/ZNG40+f4j2HorURZQxiweMjLv7KRFOmDRuRv1g92ur XWWKK3d0xjugH2uk5Ie8Pp/TKOH3XhjUFzk0VyWbfC1tbcRJ2e5n3/D5KE1hKxHTCp9D d20A026Rqm/cztAXgZGQ5b3PIge3Pu131ex2QMk63WoYsgN36gthrL1CbEDKE6iTTViM mkOq9fXE/5Khlry1xLPEpBzCM1jbssmAQp8eAyk46+CTcGe9Y79z52k/vCKzM2zhVPDX SHQk5/+XVnMYnF7dqk6Q/r01LKwe+m/G1Zzv01wzXsXtlATnRB6mNbhkSZY7gK2/Dz/h LFgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=aD9URAztBETM2hUQzIr0V1GMB5kBV4SsZ426p0lelF8=; b=LBPofg+2BTKtejalQF19kJvDM4+CoP5Egp5uViURuWHZTBql/9iaPKqpp5AuXl36g6 Rx5OoKJDIb6xVQFXMPSNRnPkszPnnhmwOduwq+GXFFRHHoVVyT2XVbvufp9TazdX/msD aSvAxHXboRvVZ7KXgH0BSAIuoZkMSxVIHZCAGt1GCyYlt0oBpGAl6XiwPcTjnfl4gKj1 I9E67LL1ey3jH/uJK7GhLqYA3j2Bced1olWBKF8VRZap568s2KDFGD3BM5bBZBPguuZk /XuKe0eZpGq5ojs4zTB6Dh91tiUHyZ+hYJF7Vhk9a68NjyXutF26lBO9fcygPT1bq+lp jJ8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HXXZEO7ZHV+rvwgDVkl8e9YSssFpUU6SJ9XpA+OV6lvmUy8dew JPcOoPbfRaNqFgDMCFtGB5A9T+UtDKPgcN7AlHzS6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvAaA/VUwJsHqvPrnQs8S1FowiOCbnXmhgf9UNG7ql4WYlr927VT0NEWHK0T9haPqCKD/C5bqGoR9dU7iqJbkA= X-Received: by 10.176.112.184 with SMTP id q24mr12863526ual.47.1521650762321; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 09:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: antarus@scriptkitty.com Received: by 10.176.85.80 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 09:46:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2620:0:1003:512:dd72:ee5e:fc33:7084] In-Reply-To: <20180321163125.GA16862@angelfall.a21an.org> References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <20180320152848.2uzqzvotaqk5hlnm@gentoo.org> <20180321053601.GA4705@angelfall.a21an.org> <20180321163125.GA16862@angelfall.a21an.org> From: Alec Warner Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 12:46:01 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Y93e7b_FB_UFYldJ2-pMc0FCe9A Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Mailing list moderation and community openness To: Gentoo Dev Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e08329e5c2927fd0567eeede6" X-Archives-Salt: d7c1eae1-36ac-4ed4-b43b-505bddb97f3d X-Archives-Hash: 307b6db8bfce2d41747db2f63e316afd --089e08329e5c2927fd0567eeede6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 12:31 PM, Eray Aslan wrote: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 10:44:48AM -0400, Alec Warner wrote: > > [1] Which isn't to say that I would accept 'orders' to commit crimes, or > > other obviously bad things. > > This is the crux of the problem. There are certain lines you will not > cross. I am saying that my line is different and by voicing that, > hopefully, making you re-consider yours. > > > I'm again asserting that this idea is not > > fundamentally bad. The community has a 'toxic people problem' and our > > previous attempts at resolution have not really produced great results. > > Will this also produce great results? Not sure. But willing to try it. > > Openness, transparency, inclusiveness. Those are some pretty > fundemental values. Reconsider. But if you decide to go ahead, I am > not going to judge you. You (or the council members who voted yes) are > not bad persons. Just somewhat different values - which is surprising > in a sad way. > I think of my aim is just playing a longer field here. I've been a part of Gentoo for a long time. I've considered leaving numerous times for a variety of reasons; yet I remain. I don't disagree that the issue is important, but leaving an organization really changes the velocity and direction of influence one can have on it. Traditionally I have not seen external contributors have a strong influence in Gentoo; so leaving to me implies a loss of influence. If my goal is to have a good outcome; I'm not convinced leaving accomplishes it. If I leave, will the council change their mind? Why would they? Perhaps you think myself (and other developers) should do more and I think that is a reasonable thing to advocate for; but I'm also fairly happy with a timeline of: 1) We add moderation in ~April. 2) Council election happens in summer (I expect something of a strong reckoning here, in terms of council makeup.) 3) Council` repeals the previous decision and we undo the moderation[1]. I tend to like this approach because I feel like its how the organization was designed to work. I think alternatives involve essentially 'protesting'. E.g. I could propose the council discuss this topic at every meeting. I could try to use my developer-ship to force extra council meetings (emergency meetings perhaps.) I could collect signatures. I'm still not convinced these things would be vehicles for change though. [1] There is of course the risk that this doesn't come about, either because the same council is re-elected or because the new council chooses not to repeal. But I accept this risk willingly. > -- > Eray > > --089e08329e5c2927fd0567eeede6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 12:31 PM, Eray Aslan <eras@gentoo.org> wrote:
On Wed, Mar = 21, 2018 at 10:44:48AM -0400, Alec Warner wrote:
> [1] Which isn't to say that I would accept 'orders' to com= mit crimes, or
> other obviously bad things.

This is the crux of the problem.=C2=A0 There are certain lines you w= ill not
cross.=C2=A0 I am saying that my line is different and by voicing that,
hopefully, making you re-consider yours.

> I'm again asserting that this idea is not
> fundamentally bad. The community has a 'toxic people problem' = and our
> previous attempts at resolution have not really produced great results= .
> Will this also produce great results? Not sure. But willing to try it.=

Openness, transparency, inclusiveness.=C2=A0 Those are some pretty fundemental values.=C2=A0 Reconsider.=C2=A0 But if you decide to go ahead, = I am
not going to judge you.=C2=A0 You (or the council members who voted yes) ar= e
not bad persons.=C2=A0 Just somewhat different values - which is surprising=
in a sad way.

I think of my aim is just= playing a longer field here. I've been a part of Gentoo for a long tim= e. I've considered leaving numerous
times for a variety of re= asons; yet I remain.

I don't disagree that the= issue is important, but leaving an organization really changes the velocit= y and direction of influence one
can have on it. Traditionally I = have not seen external contributors have a strong influence in Gentoo; so l= eaving to me implies a
loss of influence. If my goal is to have a= good outcome; I'm not convinced leaving accomplishes it. If I leave, w= ill the council change their mind? Why would they?

Perhaps you think myself (and other developers) should do more and I think= that is a reasonable thing to advocate for; but I'm also fairly happy = with a timeline
of:

1) We add moderation= in ~April.
2) Council election happens in summer (I expect somet= hing of a strong reckoning here, in terms of council makeup.)
3) = Council` repeals the previous decision and we undo the moderation[1].
=

I tend to like this approach because I feel like its ho= w the organization was designed to work. I think alternatives involve essen= tially 'protesting'. E.g. I could propose the council discuss this = topic at every meeting. I could try to use my developer-ship to force extra= council meetings (emergency meetings perhaps.) I could collect signatures.= I'm still not convinced these things would be vehicles for change thou= gh.

[1] There is of course the risk that this does= n't come about, either because the same council is re-elected or becaus= e the new council chooses not to repeal. But I accept this risk willingly.<= /div>


--
Eray


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