From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1F951382C5 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 14:44:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 61F18E08E0; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 14:44:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ua0-x244.google.com (mail-ua0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4AE2E08D9 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 14:44:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ua0-x244.google.com with SMTP id b13so3451264uam.10 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 07:44:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=scriptkitty-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=fKZ/eUy/CY8iNQ9v3bJnRi3Gv1uEQuudo2upsTIZAw8=; b=YR3ceejQcrtevMmCQbx6eNg5zPiEebFtsah7/23/OMNk7QyrCjT29jcmYfmJ5VdHWv zDcLFYCjiexxHS1M7Kx4lj6ZeJr2HWO5K5tEZNQAqncvcTEFT9tbzwL46pp50LNvZ5ZN TI0TZGrX4vNbqP+e+sgnKTDczExNUv3L24Zcyu+igg//2NAhRys14c0AKChfJxbGVnUR zK6gNZ0vZl+9GbNElzwLk3IrwUOIH8pSvVN9in/7rDfPYU1fxXo0i1COPosWKiLGHJcs e0dH2sBfPm0tXITRL4Y/QVkrOvu62HGOvkZ2o2AMGXYt4QEVt+cRtobDNvoXjCw0xjB4 8mkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fKZ/eUy/CY8iNQ9v3bJnRi3Gv1uEQuudo2upsTIZAw8=; b=q3LnQiZsb7v/OlNGXgXGBiSCtAbrpFZixrVnShM1n6pg6aXK1eqbVELg1TaFUn+5Bp +LJfcjZPXls8Z/eKt7g6RqOoaCLklTCLhvUCG1GCnsFEAQz7AQ6xF8sU2Tz/RMgjhE7r yo3E8LCM3AKS4KcPFyuUGYeYOCTnV3bakFyv6KyuFzVl4tf69mhShjrup691XK0qSCar bfadD5GbZ78wPo7MR9D+3NqTzgD372DipHCbgAS+BM0s/CDH+hpVTr4722J24RPQGtai WEVc1WFa4TZR9FC+AzerumLNyXkb6DoouMI89kt9BxaWaTyNBeLiatWNCcf6WLcvslPa B97Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FDRHLdU7RNo6yLz49UwVMVuB79Cbsh/eIuFoxhzlTrFe1nNnEi cSwCv0/IoMvDSOUFHxRZI+WZ/NyVSpJkKQ3vIrwTdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvoxIF8n08Eb7vAxJn+ji75r6ZaVScpHiPg/CUnHvRgbtBn88z3AAKrHSZ3PeH/hOKxGqGr3dGqhTn3SbT2Nao= X-Received: by 10.176.32.24 with SMTP id v24mr13759714uak.20.1521643489403; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 07:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: antarus@scriptkitty.com Received: by 10.176.85.80 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [98.116.189.160] In-Reply-To: <20180321053601.GA4705@angelfall.a21an.org> References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <20180320152848.2uzqzvotaqk5hlnm@gentoo.org> <20180321053601.GA4705@angelfall.a21an.org> From: Alec Warner Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:44:48 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hhfmjsKHMhKqy2QozwY7mO6oVP8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Mailing list moderation and community openness To: Gentoo Dev Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f40304358dc0a9398c0567ed3be9" X-Archives-Salt: a9d66912-71db-41f1-98c5-e737ab4f0570 X-Archives-Hash: d9679dd75c4785ba1cc6799594a42c5a --f40304358dc0a9398c0567ed3be9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:36 AM, Eray Aslan wrote: > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:28:48AM -0500, Matthew Thode wrote: > > While I personally do no agree with mailing list moderation infra has > > been tasked with moving forward on it. > > You can always resign from infra. > > That was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment but not wholly. You cant > cop out by saying it was an order from council. I understand if you > dont but do consider it. Fight the good fight. > So when there is conflict its pretty often that you have 3 options. 1) Accept 2) Leave 3) Escalate I'm not sure 3 is possible (the council is already the highest body). I also think that as a organization this is how we arranged it to be. Speaking for myself, this is not the worst issue I've seen in Gentoo and so I thing doing 2 is probably not very effective. Its also likely I can only do 2 once (because maybe I would not be welcome'd back or want to contribute anymore.) That leaves 1 and one interests me for many reasons. a) as noted earlier, decisions are not set in stone. Its possible we could turn on this whitelisting solution for a brief period and the decision is overturned at the next council meeting, or perhaps at the next council election once the existing council is replaced. b) I am never afraid of making mistakes. I too think this is a mistake; but I don't think its a critical mistake for the organization. Maybe I'm wrong though. c) I have a selfish interest to migrate off of mmlmj because I have an intense dislike (of the software) and I think we need a "modernized" list setup. So this effort is a driver to get some infra work done. d) Infra as a organization wields a lot of power in Gentoo and I think its organizationally dangerous to wield that power in this way. For example, if the entire infra team retired rather than implement this solution; or even worse, refused to retire but just didn't implement it. Ultimately Infrastructure is here to meet the needs of the distribution and if we are not doing that then we have failed as an organization.[1] e) In the past, infra *has* wielded its power in a fashion that had negative impacts on the distribution (e.g. arbitrarily removing commit rights for developers with no warning, process, or oversight). I think there is an additional focus in the the Infra team to avoid that sort of activity and "inaction is still action" and I think it results in similar repercussions. [1] Which isn't to say that I would accept 'orders' to commit crimes, or other obviously bad things. I'm again asserting that this idea is not fundamentally bad. The community has a 'toxic people problem' and our previous attempts at resolution have not really produced great results. Will this also produce great results? Not sure. But willing to try it. -A > > -- > Eray > > --f40304358dc0a9398c0567ed3be9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:36 AM, Eray Aslan <eras@gentoo.org> wrot= e:
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 = at 10:28:48AM -0500, Matthew Thode wrote:
> While I personally do no agree with mailing list moderation infra has<= br> > been tasked with moving forward on it.

You can always resign from infra.

That was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment but not wholly.=C2=A0 You cant<= br> cop out by saying it was an order from council.=C2=A0 I understand if you dont but do consider it.=C2=A0 Fight the good fight.
<= br>
So when there is conflict its pretty often that you have 3 op= tions.

1) Accept
2) Leave
3) E= scalate

I'm not sure 3 is possible (the counci= l is already the highest body). I also think that as a organization this is= how we
arranged it to be. Speaking for myself, this is not the w= orst issue I've seen in Gentoo and so I thing doing 2 is probably
=
not very effective. Its also likely I can only do 2 once (because mayb= e I would not be welcome'd back or want to contribute anymore.)

That leaves 1 and one interests me for many reasons.

a) as noted earlier, decisions are not set in stone. I= ts possible we could turn on this whitelisting solution for a brief period = and the decision is overturned at the next council meeting, or perhaps at t= he next council election once the existing council is replaced.
b= ) I am never afraid of making mistakes. I too think this is a mistake; but = I don't think its a critical mistake for the organization. Maybe I'= m wrong though.
c) I have a selfish interest to migrate off of mm= lmj because I have an intense dislike (of the software) and I think we need= a "modernized" list setup. So this effort is a driver to get som= e infra work done.
d) Infra as a organization wields a lot of pow= er in Gentoo and I think its organizationally dangerous to wield that power= in this way. For example, if the entire infra team retired rather than imp= lement this solution; or even worse, refused to retire but just didn't = implement it. Ultimately Infrastructure is here to meet the needs of the di= stribution and if we are not doing that then we have failed as an organizat= ion.[1]
e) In the past, infra *has* wielded its power in a fashio= n that had negative impacts on the distribution (e.g. arbitrarily removing = commit rights for developers with no warning, process, or oversight). I thi= nk there is an additional focus in the the Infra team to avoid that sort of= activity and "inaction is still action" and I think it results i= n similar repercussions.
=C2=A0
[1] Which isn't to = say that I would accept 'orders' to commit crimes, or other obvious= ly bad things. I'm again asserting that this idea is not fundamentally = bad. The community has a 'toxic people problem' and our previous at= tempts at resolution have not really produced great results. Will this also= produce great results? Not sure. But willing to try it.

=
-A

--
Eray


--f40304358dc0a9398c0567ed3be9--