From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851DA13800E for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 21:40:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE287E07A7; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 21:39:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f53.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D958E055C for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 21:38:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lagu2 with SMTP id u2so3404lag.40 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 14:38:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/bMs8w3t2ZeX1FKtdcdYFfqyMPfsLEGOGqwbuzt0H5Y=; b=ZYRNX1GfKqlPG/JVUFgmRbDh9GaxZ2S1RuKN3VR4WxCjsGEolTvNwH0gzB+RSTVGMX VmtDVmaJY0txMa3JkwxC0HDowj9QrWTPZWg647RM6P84A0cfjPR1CtSRfGHe8NezmIkE NNnpM9KykWSA4FyiEUz9KqACEj2MbtEgSUcuWwmUSWQ5Z0dPf1ZbZo6kbCfNDv+yH8fq rjVWAAx96WIhRbbASkJqMOExldN92Bat8F+fAh9Ti/CM4RFOTZGzFee1OJ5C9AcTW0B/ nTQM6GpB17G+U1e/8pZH74c7Pav2FSxdqSSUHB0Gxu85805BRsElza+sB2DACmFv5Zdw ZYHg== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.132.233 with SMTP id ox9mr22725895lab.25.1343943532674; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 14:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.0.167 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:38:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5016C57C.4050304@orlitzky.com> References: <3146937.NEprMvEFLe@mephista> <20498.15988.225230.614853@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <501285DC.2020207@gentoo.org> <201207271324.48571.vapier@gentoo.org> <1343413763.7511.1.camel@belkin4> <5012F712.7030806@gentoo.org> <50169BB8.4030408@orlitzky.com> <20120730164141.1573fadd@pomiocik.lan> <50169F35.60504@orlitzky.com> <20120730182824.0b679d8a@pomiocik.lan> <5016C57C.4050304@orlitzky.com> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:38:52 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default From: Kent Fredric To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: ed865590-2727-4ca4-9a60-eb1820a8c187 X-Archives-Hash: cb1bdf43a352f25c6719d4d3c3bcf84d On 31 July 2012 05:33, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > On 07/30/12 12:28, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: >> >> My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to >> convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here >> and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change. >> >> So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping >> that this time the result will be on your side. > > We didn't do a survey, we asked, > > "Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a "sane" > default value?" > > Unsurprisingly, the responses contained reasons for not using > en_US.UTF-8 as the default. > I think its a shame that : 1. the current handbook way to change timezone is manually editing a file. 2. the handbook doesn't mention `eselect locale` 3. `eselect locale list` is useless if you have *all* locales available to = you. 4. `eselect locale` can only set the LANG variable. 5. that eselect doesn't have an interactive mode yet. Why? because this problem could be made simpler by providing a way to use a recommended locale for your timezone, which is likely to yield a more sane default for that timezone. It would also make it easier to validate the value the user chooses for their Timezone value. Consider: eselect timezone list # all level 1 timezones + groups , ie: like ls /usr/share/zoneinfo eselect timezone list America/ # contents of /usr/share/zoneinfo/America eselect timezone set America/Chicago # /etc/timezone is updated to 'America/Chicago' # /etc/localtime is replaced with /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Chicago eselect locale set --all auto # LANG and LC_* are set using the values defined as "default" for America/Chicago eselect locale set --ctype auto # Only LC_CTYPE is autopopulated. eselect locale list # 600 items because you have a vanilla locale.defs eselect locale list --timezone # shows a list of LOCALE values for the current TZ, with the one that would be used as default first/marked up differently eselect locale list en # shows english locale options eselect locale set --ctype en_US.utf8 The benefits of setting these locales this way are obvious to me at least, you can set locales to a value that is sensible automatically. You also can validate a users choice of locale and provide feedback, such as, you can list non-installed locales, and then tell the user if thy try to use a locale that isn't installed yet they need to update locales.def The only way I can suggest something better, would be an interactive locale setter, something like 'tzselect' , except sets timezone *and* locale information, with the ability to automatically update locales.def and add new locale definitions and regenerate the locale database. This way, you could have a selection process more like this: https://gist.github.com/3240866 #? 1 The following information has been given: United States Eastern Time Therefore TZ=3D'America/New_York' will be used. Local time is now: Thu Aug 2 17:33:17 EDT 2012. Universal Time is now: Thu Aug 2 21:33:17 UTC 2012. Is the above information OK? 1) Yes 2) No #? 1 Your Current locale settings are: LANG=3D"POSIX" The recommended settings for your locale are : LANG=3D"en_US.utf8" LC_CTYPE=3D"en_US.utf8" Do you wish to change your locale settings at this time? 1) No 2) Yes - Use recommended settings 3) Yes - Configure locale interactively. At least this way, the effort required to configure your system into a very good logical UTF8 default is trivial. --=20 Kent perl -e "print substr( \"edrgmaM SPA NOcomil.ic\\@tfrken\", \$_ * 3, 3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );" http://kent-fredric.fox.geek.nz