From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6714A1382C5 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:55:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C9F0E08E2; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:55:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com (mail-lf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBC9CE08D6 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:55:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id a22-v6so1272358lfg.9 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 19:55:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Zlq41iOJDDDnhABjjSx4sb8c30kZOOV0v1UMxvDvSdM=; b=UQnTlxuuJdGdB62Xf8qaTAAjT79WV2BZ0M3nf5cKHwOW06N2iy+jgXVaPyWgqlxKxY pPEcuANjTbJtUu5decZXDWLaj86DmHXo71J26eOdnKxFmcWAmMLhPBCRZs63eVvWPFot xFR16H+YqDJ2hJi5jGnQresJ1pRWPK7RTXARFhRT3004quzPsC+YWeIBP+m2G52zTc7y ilakTp3sDXunUxzvLAZC/jtWGefYMVOtRuMi+IBtUs4BNgwcro4q8x0iPctqBCMhhXEY THD4XJLWwufh5E7TWG5AzT8oo9fKZsr6jMjCjxe6IZ7jmklwA1NI4Pmf0AH16QTP8JYl 8ImA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Zlq41iOJDDDnhABjjSx4sb8c30kZOOV0v1UMxvDvSdM=; b=ka+ArozIEx2FhieXk8ABtK9taR1FvbboPip5w5w5IxMXa0cjiy429EcN8fX4CDe58S AC8aTB4lEulO98/B9RsAlfaxC4MYhE7PnSnPts799V0AHIa68OU9vvdsoWVVpLy0UE+/ w7pfpGEOyYyfry8UAMiST0ree1bjTkbZ/YEZMBSxY9msBesdoup4rQosodWLaztyeDLf dIKn8h5s9yLZF9fpRb6MysGsFyAtQ2pRJkU+haEND0VZxlevYr8lR8fudbMOK7OXygYK TcLOc0GoRydXi8RJWd7wU/yX2/FUiUrkKTTbXG+IWdkMCL2IQL/8wXc0pah5vL2qyUyG n4oQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FBkpfeeJUojTZlZ2Xr8kPRJDS3qZF0Dl/Oe/yuOXlMX9i1qe89 RgP9di2w2pXPn/63T8lZF453EMlFBx3w0lVIa4kY6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/IIZCeTbVO1W3r4UA0JW1HVjfxTJaY+mX2Vu9SIQWz+WiT/3zG9o5IiA5c9vsJwhCWkfAFlX3+mkps3aNwR9c= X-Received: by 2002:a19:3b48:: with SMTP id i69-v6mr1017428lfa.72.1522205725583; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 19:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.135.193 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 19:55:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <0818a5b0-cc1e-403f-6c08-1285999de30f@gentoo.org> <20180320160316.GA5785@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <87605qs3pi.fsf@gentoo.org> From: R0b0t1 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:55:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Mailing list moderation and community openness To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: 8e7fbab0-bf57-413b-bb9f-3f329d4d64c8 X-Archives-Hash: 2d82efee29313d1f6777aad8e90818b9 I really do hate discussing this. I will pray for Gentoo, friends, as I hope the distribution continues to receive useful contributions. On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: > Now a bunch of community members get upset about Fred being booted out > without reason. Fred claims it is because he disagrees with the > leadership on something. People start arguing endlessly about > openness. > Explain why the user was removed. > Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors > aren't getting driven away. They can't explain that because then they > create potential civil liability for the project. The problem is that > the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and > now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away. > This is insane. If they sue produce the emails. At least in the US, the suit will be thrown out, as truth is a defense to defamation. If I am not a lawyer and as such can not understand the law and my opinion should not be trusted, then, as I assume you are not a lawyer, your opinion should not be trusted either. Even if you have consulted with a lawyer you are not a lawyer and there is no reason to believe you could have understood what the lawyer told you. I do not present this as sophistry: for any progress to be made in the discussion of your hypothetical situation I sincerely think you need to consider the above. At what point is one's knowledge of the law enough to act within society? > What solution would you propose for this problem? It isn't > hypothetical at all - I can think of one case in Gentoo's past where > this happened that I'm aware of, and I'd be shocked if it were the > only one. > Stop using the law as a boogeyman. Be transparent in why decisions were made. There are no legal concerns save fair use (the copyright of any published emails) and the publication of private facts.[1] For a tort involving the disclosure of public facts, you would need to have no reason to publish those facts save for the damage they could cause. You may also need to publish them in a manner far more public than a Linux distribution mailing list. To continue the example I doubt anyone would care if it was just a single Fred, though they may be slightly put off. Multiple Fred (or related) incidents later it would seem rather strange. As I have tried to explain my issue with the closure of the mailing list is not the removal of a user, but the lack of openness with which decisions are made. Points are brought up in good faith and then ignored. Requests for clarification may not be greeted amicably. Overall, this makes it seem like the closure of the development list is to keep decisions from being questioned. If there were hecklers asking stupid questions that would be one thing, but that is not what it looks like to me. I will note most developers go quietly about maintaining their charges and make reasonable decisions. Cheers, R0b0t1 [1]: http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/publication-private-facts