* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 9:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2012-03-31 10:06 ` Brian Harring
2012-03-31 11:44 ` Samuli Suominen
2012-03-31 14:59 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 11:00 ` [gentoo-dev] " Patrick Lauer
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Brian Harring @ 2012-03-31 10:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Ciaran McCreesh; +Cc: gentoo-dev
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:52:53AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300
> Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> > @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
> > should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
> > boxes for years without any issues :)
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
> break" means "it works".
>
> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is
> that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so
> I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I
> can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a
> bad way of doing things.
Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does.
If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo.
Related, why the hell are you still even around here?
You literally send more mail to our dev ml then to exherbos.
I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts
generally consist of "xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it"
whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick.
~harring (being rather tired of the broken record).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 10:06 ` Brian Harring
@ 2012-03-31 11:44 ` Samuli Suominen
2012-03-31 12:12 ` Rich Freeman
2012-03-31 14:59 ` Ciaran McCreesh
1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Samuli Suominen @ 2012-03-31 11:44 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On 03/31/2012 01:06 PM, Brian Harring wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:52:53AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300
>> Alex Alexander<alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
>>> should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
>>> boxes for years without any issues :)
>>
>> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
>> break" means "it works".
>>
>> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is
>> that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so
>> I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I
>> can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a
>> bad way of doing things.
>
> Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does.
>
> If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo.
>
> Related, why the hell are you still even around here?
>
> You literally send more mail to our dev ml then to exherbos.
>
> I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts
> generally consist of "xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it"
> whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick.
>
> ~harring (being rather tired of the broken record).
>
separate gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-dev-public@ MLs so we would have a place
where to discuss about improving Gentoo with people who also want to
improve it
(or hand me powers to remove people from ML :-)
- Samuli
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 11:44 ` Samuli Suominen
@ 2012-03-31 12:12 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2012-03-31 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> (or hand me powers to remove people from ML :-)
>
That sounds like a great idea. We could create a code of conduct, and
then designate individuals to enforce it. Maybe we should call them
proctors:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml
What could go wrong?
Seriously though, this debate like many others recently probably
shouldn't be viewed as for-Gentoo and against-Gentoo. Lots of people
care about Gentoo, we just don't always agree on what is best. In
this case the issue is pragmatism vs idealism, and both have their
place.
What is important is that we go ahead and share our views, debate
points within reason, don't obsess over getting in the last word, and
then work together to support the decisions that get made.
My two cents in this debate is that I'm willing to accept Ciaran's
suggestion that Portage 2.2's approach has its limitations, but it is
the best thing we have implemented now, and thus I'll take the 98%
solution over the 20% solution (which is what we get if all we do is
argue over how to get to 100%(. If somebody wants to write the code
to get us from 98->100%, I'm sure we'll all be for it.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 10:06 ` Brian Harring
2012-03-31 11:44 ` Samuli Suominen
@ 2012-03-31 14:59 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 17:25 ` Jeroen Roovers
2012-04-01 16:04 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long
1 sibling, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2012-03-31 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Brian Harring; +Cc: gentoo-dev
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On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:06:36 -0700
Brian Harring <ferringb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that
> > matter) is that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it
> > might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those,
> > but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so
> > it's fine". That's a bad way of doing things.
>
> Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does.
>
> If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo.
>
> Related, why the hell are you still even around here?
Because unlike you, I believe Gentoo can and should get it right. If
users want a desktoppy distribution where stuff sort of works most of
the time but no-one really understands why, and where you reinstall
every six months, then Ubuntu already does a far better job of that.
Gentoo can deliver something better.
It's not even more work. It just requires a small change in thought
process from "code first and ask questions later" to "think first and
then code". That, together with incrementally fixing existing bad
design decisions, could bring Gentoo back towards being an extremely
attractive alternative distribution.
> I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts
> generally consist of "xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it"
> whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick.
No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't
already been explained, I say how to fix it. But the first step towards
getting something fixed is admitting that there's a problem, and you've
always been awfully reluctant to do that until the damage has already
been done.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 14:59 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2012-03-31 17:25 ` Jeroen Roovers
2012-04-01 17:00 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-04-01 16:04 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long
1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Jeroen Roovers @ 2012-03-31 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:59:00 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts
> > generally consist of "xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it"
> > whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick.
>
> No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't
> already been explained, I say how to fix it.
No, that's what you see from the inside. We, outside your head, the
others, see it precisely as Brian worded it. Some people apparently
tolerate or even appreciate your general (online) attitude towards
humans, but most do not.
jer
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread* [gentoo-dev] Re: Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 14:59 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 17:25 ` Jeroen Roovers
@ 2012-04-01 16:04 ` Steven J Long
2012-04-01 16:54 ` Jeroen Roovers
2012-04-01 16:56 ` Ciaran McCreesh
1 sibling, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Steven J Long @ 2012-04-01 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't
> already been explained, I say how to fix it.
Oh? Where on Earth did you do that in this thread? All you've said so far is
that preserve-libs is "an awful hack that doesn't really work, is
conceptually unsound and that breaks all kinds of things in subtle ways." No
reasoning given whatsoever. Nor any indication of how to fix anything.
I wouldn't mind your snobbish attitude so much, if you did actually present
full and cogent reasoning, the *first* time you "present" an issue. But you
never do, you simply state cryptically that things are broken, and if anyone
queries you, you usually state that the reason others don't see it, is
because they are stupid. (That's what your arguments boil down to.)
> But the first step towards
> getting something fixed is admitting that there's a problem, and you've
> always been awfully reluctant to do that until the damage has already
> been done.
>
Yes, it is hard to admit one has problems; how are things going with your
human interaction problems? (They don't seem to be going that well, given
your continued attitude.) I mean, you have admitted to yourself that you do
have issues in that area, haven't you? After the last 8 or 9 years of being
told you do, including by people who call you a friend, you *must* have
taken that on-board as a problem _you_ need to address by now, surely?
Especially after all the damage that's been caused.
--
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-04-01 16:04 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long
@ 2012-04-01 16:54 ` Jeroen Roovers
2012-04-01 16:56 ` Ciaran McCreesh
1 sibling, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Jeroen Roovers @ 2012-04-01 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:04:11 +0100
Steven J Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes, it is hard to admit one has problems; how are things going with
> your human interaction problems? (They don't seem to be going that
> well, given your continued attitude.) I mean, you have admitted to
> yourself that you do have issues in that area, haven't you? After the
> last 8 or 9 years of being told you do, including by people who call
> you a friend, you *must* have taken that on-board as a problem _you_
> need to address by now, surely? Especially after all the damage
> that's been caused.
Arguing along those lines, I guess April 7 2006 would be an excellent
date to remember in celebration, so we ought to get cracking on the
cakes and decorations.
jer
[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=114944#c235
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-04-01 16:04 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long
2012-04-01 16:54 ` Jeroen Roovers
@ 2012-04-01 16:56 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-05-04 17:08 ` [gentoo-dev] " Steven J Long
1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2012-04-01 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:04:11 +0100
Steven J Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't
> > already been explained, I say how to fix it.
> Oh? Where on Earth did you do that in this thread? All you've said so
> far is that preserve-libs is "an awful hack that doesn't really work,
> is conceptually unsound and that breaks all kinds of things in subtle
> ways." No reasoning given whatsoever. Nor any indication of how to
> fix anything.
preserve-libs has been discussed to death previously and elsewhere. The
changes needed to implement it correctly were included in the original
EAPI 3, but were dropped due to lack of Portage implementation. There's
no need to repeat the whole discussion here.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-04-01 16:56 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2012-05-04 17:08 ` Steven J Long
0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Steven J Long @ 2012-05-04 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:04:11 +0100
> Steven J Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> > No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't
>> > already been explained, I say how to fix it.
>> Oh? Where on Earth did you do that in this thread? All you've said so
>> far is that preserve-libs is "an awful hack that doesn't really work,
>> is conceptually unsound and that breaks all kinds of things in subtle
>> ways." No reasoning given whatsoever. Nor any indication of how to
>> fix anything.
>
> preserve-libs has been discussed to death previously and elsewhere. The
> changes needed to implement it correctly were included in the original
> EAPI 3, but were dropped due to lack of Portage implementation.
The usual protocol when you're making assertions like that, if it's already
been discussed, is to provide a url or two to prior discussion. Or at least
state which feature(set) it is you think which does that.
After lots of reading, and recent discussion, you appear to believe that
SLOT operators are the "conceptually sound" method of choice that doesn't
"break things in subtle ways". Is that correct?
> There's no need to repeat the whole discussion here.
No, just provide evidence and reasoning for any assertions you make,
especially when you are criticising someone else's work. You don't have to
repeat yourself: just link to the issues, if you can't summarise them
yourself.
--
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 9:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 10:06 ` Brian Harring
@ 2012-03-31 11:00 ` Patrick Lauer
2012-03-31 15:01 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 11:49 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Lauer @ 2012-03-31 11:00 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On 03/31/12 17:52, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300
> Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
>> should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
>> boxes for years without any issues :)
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
> break" means "it works".
>
> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is
> that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so
> I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I
> can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a
> bad way of doing things.
>
Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect.
While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you
have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover
100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ...
I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 11:00 ` [gentoo-dev] " Patrick Lauer
@ 2012-03-31 15:01 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 15:07 ` Patrick Lauer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2012-03-31 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0800
Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect.
>
> While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you
> have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover
> 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ...
> I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.
If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall
system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down
to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering "when it breaks, reinstall"
territory here.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 15:01 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2012-03-31 15:07 ` Patrick Lauer
2012-03-31 15:12 ` Ciaran McCreesh
0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Lauer @ 2012-03-31 15:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On 03/31/12 23:01, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0800
> Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect.
>>
>> While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you
>> have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover
>> 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ...
>> I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.
>
> If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall
> system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down
> to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering "when it breaks, reinstall"
> territory here.
>
Which is still more than 0%.
I demand better trolls, this is getting boring.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 9:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 10:06 ` Brian Harring
2012-03-31 11:00 ` [gentoo-dev] " Patrick Lauer
@ 2012-03-31 11:49 ` Duncan
2012-03-31 17:08 ` Zac Medico
2012-03-31 12:08 ` [gentoo-dev] " Alex Alexander
2012-03-31 21:20 ` Markos Chandras
4 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2012-03-31 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Ciaran McCreesh posted on Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:52:53 +0100 as excerpted:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander
> <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
>> should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
>> boxes for years without any issues :)
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
> break" means "it works".
Funny how familiar that argument looks... aka...
A separate /usr is already broken, you just don't know it yet.
Or was drawing attention to that your intent and I just missed the
invisible <sarcasm> tags. =:^)
--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 11:49 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
@ 2012-03-31 17:08 ` Zac Medico
0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Zac Medico @ 2012-03-31 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On 03/31/2012 04:49 AM, Duncan wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh posted on Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:52:53 +0100 as excerpted:
>
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander
>> <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
>>> should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
>>> boxes for years without any issues :)
>>
>> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
>> break" means "it works".
>
> Funny how familiar that argument looks... aka...
>
> A separate /usr is already broken, you just don't know it yet.
For separate /usr, there's a relatively simple solution, which is to
mount /usr with an initramfs. For preserve-libs, there is no such a
simple solution. Much like separate-/usr-without-initramfs,
preserve-libs does not work correctly unless lots of different pieces of
software behave cooperatively.
--
Thanks,
Zac
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 9:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2012-03-31 11:49 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
@ 2012-03-31 12:08 ` Alex Alexander
2012-03-31 14:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 21:20 ` Markos Chandras
4 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Alex Alexander @ 2012-03-31 12:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Mar 31, 2012 12:57 PM, "Ciaran McCreesh" <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300
> Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> > @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
> > should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
> > boxes for years without any issues :)
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
> break" means "it works".
>
> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is
> that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so
> I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I
> can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a
> bad way of doing things.
>
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh
No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works.
You can argue about the implementation details all you want and it'll still
work.
If you can make it better then, by all means, send a patch. Otherwise stop
spreading false FUD, please.
Thanks :)
Alex | wired
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 12:08 ` [gentoo-dev] " Alex Alexander
@ 2012-03-31 14:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2012-03-31 15:39 ` Alex Alexander
0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2012-03-31 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300
Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works.
Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where it
doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a single
counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what constitutes
proof here -- "some evidence" certainly isn't it.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 14:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2012-03-31 15:39 ` Alex Alexander
2012-03-31 16:02 ` Ciaran McCreesh
0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread
From: Alex Alexander @ 2012-03-31 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Mar 31, 2012 5:57 PM, "Ciaran McCreesh" <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300
> Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> > No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works.
>
> Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where it
> doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a single
> counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what constitutes
> proof here -- "some evidence" certainly isn't it.
>
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh
Boring. You conveniently ignored the other part of my message.
I'll repeat it: no matter how much you argue, it'll still work fine for me.
That said, I think we can end this conversation now :)
Gentoo \o/
Alex | wired
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 15:39 ` Alex Alexander
@ 2012-03-31 16:02 ` Ciaran McCreesh
0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2012-03-31 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2172 bytes --]
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:39:21 +0300
Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 31, 2012 5:57 PM, "Ciaran McCreesh"
> <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300
> > Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works.
> >
> > Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where
> > it doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a
> > single counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what
> > constitutes proof here -- "some evidence" certainly isn't it.
>
> Boring. You conveniently ignored the other part of my message.
I was hoping you'd understand how your claim of proof was utterly
unfounded. What you have is limited evidence of a very specific
situation, which is a whole other thing.
> I'll repeat it: no matter how much you argue, it'll still work fine
> for me.
And I'll spell it out. On the scale of "it works", you have a series of
levels:
1. It compiles.
2. I tried it and I didn't see any breakages.
3. I tried it, and I checked carefully that nothing was broken.
4. I tried it on a wide range of valid inputs, and I checked carefully
that nothing was broken.
5. I tried it on a wide range of valid inputs, including inputs designed
to test edge cases, and I checked carefully that nothing was broken.
6. I tried it on a wide range of valid and invalid inputs, and I
checked carefully that nothing was broken, and that the invalid inputs
were handled correctly.
7. I carefully considered all the equivalence classes of inputs, and
tested each.
8. I carefully considered all the equivalence classes of inputs, and
can explain why each is handled correctly.
9. I can prove that it works.
You're offering evidence of number 2, or possibly 3. Gentoo is a large
system containing many interacting components, that is expected to keep
working for long periods in many different unpleasant situations. We
need to be at at least number 7 here, and ideally number 8. For preserve
libs, the feature fails at number 4.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Happy 10th birthday (in advance)
2012-03-31 9:52 ` Ciaran McCreesh
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2012-03-31 12:08 ` [gentoo-dev] " Alex Alexander
@ 2012-03-31 21:20 ` Markos Chandras
4 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread
From: Markos Chandras @ 2012-03-31 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On 03/31/2012 10:52 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander
> <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO
>> it should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable
>> production boxes for years without any issues :)
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed
> it break" means "it works".
>
> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that
> matter) is that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it
> might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those,
> but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so
> it's fine". That's a bad way of doing things.
>
You are right, it does not work as good as it should but it's still
better than nothing ;) In any case, I am glad portage developers did
not backport this feature to 2.1.X portage releases as it is quite
fragile at the moment.
- --
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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