[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Ian Stakenvicius <axs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Last rites cancelled; found a version bump'ed distfile via icculus, so
> this one can live a little longer.

I have once asked Robin to archive the distfiles for a commercial
package which has RESTRICT=mirror. My reasoning at the time was that
if upstream disappears there's a good chance, depending on why that
happens, we can qualify the software as abandonware and the no mirror
restriction may become moot. At that point we could push the distfiles
to our mirrors. Note that this particular software still requires
original installation media (on top of the 1GB+ distfiles) and a
minimum of 1 but up to 3 valid license keys to install and then run.

My point here is we could do this preemptively and more or less
systematically in order to avoid being in the situation above. This
could even be easily automated. The worst that can happen is we
archive a few distfiles for nothing, which isn't a big price to pay.

Denis.

[gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2014, Denis Dupeyron wrote:

> I have once asked Robin to archive the distfiles for a commercial
> package which has RESTRICT=mirror. My reasoning at the time was that
> if upstream disappears there's a good chance, depending on why that
> happens, we can qualify the software as abandonware and the no
> mirror restriction may become moot.

IANAL, but there is no such concept as "abandonware" in copyright law.
Copyright can expire, at which point the work enters into the public
domain. However, the time for that is generally too long to play any
practical role for software (typically 70 years post mortem auctoris).

Therefore we cannot distribute a package unless it is explicitly
allowed by its license.

> At that point we could push the distfiles to our mirrors.

No.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> IANAL, but there is no such concept as "abandonware" in copyright law.
> Copyright can expire, at which point the work enters into the public
> domain. However, the time for that is generally too long to play any
> practical role for software (typically 70 years post mortem auctoris).
>
> Therefore we cannot distribute a package unless it is explicitly
> allowed by its license.
>

Well, copyright law varies by jurisdiction.  However, I don't think it
really makes sense for Gentoo to pursue this for a few reasons.

Please note that I'm completely sympathetic to the cause here - I just
don't think this is a wise way to go about it.

This is legally a very risky thing to do.  If you're going to do it
you want to take advantage of countries with friendly laws, etc.
Sticking a file on every Gentoo mirror is basically the exact opposite
of that - every one of our sponsors in countries all over the world
are open to lawsuit, and those targetting us could have their pick of
jurisdiction.

Also, why combine a low-risk activity like running a distro with a
high-risk one like hosting abandonware.  There is no technical
requirement to co-mingle these activities.  Gentoo depends on lots of
servers/sponsors/etc for its core mission.  Why put all of that at
risk for something that really isn't essential to our mission?

If somebody is interested in maintaining abandonware I'd take an
entirely different approach.  It should be managed as its own upstream
project, completely independent of Gentoo or any other distro.  They
should understand the legal risks, and structure their project in a
way that minimizes them, such as by operating in countries where this
activity is legal.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On 16.07.2014 18:06, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> IANAL, but there is no such concept as "abandonware" in copyright
>> law.
[...]
> This is legally a very risky thing to do.  If you're going to do
> it you want to take advantage of countries with friendly laws,
> etc.

Good luck with that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention

Quote: "As of September 2013, there are 167 states that are parties to
the Berne Convention. This includes 166 UN member states plus the Holy
See."

- -- 
Best regards, Wulf

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Ulrich is right. Abandonware just means orphaned works -- i.e. the
copyright holder hasn't sued anyone yet. Gentoo should not have
anything to do with this.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Alexander Berntsen
<bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ulrich is right. Abandonware just means orphaned works -- i.e. the
> copyright holder hasn't sued anyone yet. Gentoo should not have
> anything to do with this.

I agree with you and Ulrich. That was a very poor choice of word from
my part and not what I wanted to say. I didn't mean we should
distribute distfiles without consent, but back them up to a hidden
place while it is possible to do so. Obtaining consent to mirror
updates or linux specific files of a commercial game which is not
distributed anymore when asking politely isn't unseen, because often
the editor or publisher doesn't care any longer. If you don't backup
the files first there is little chance you will get them from the
editor exactly because they don't care.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 16/07/14 21:19, Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> I agree with you and Ulrich. That was a very poor choice of word
> from my part and not what I wanted to say. I didn't mean we should 
> distribute distfiles without consent, but back them up to a hidden 
> place while it is possible to do so. Obtaining consent to mirror 
> updates or linux specific files of a commercial game which is not 
> distributed anymore when asking politely isn't unseen, because
> often the editor or publisher doesn't care any longer. If you don't
> backup the files first there is little chance you will get them
> from the editor exactly because they don't care.
This makes more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

Alas, I do not want Gentoo to have anything with this either. Postal²
is a proprietary game, so I assume this is proprietary as well.

This is a job for abandonware sites. I'm sure several would be
sympathetic to this. And of course you can do this privately -- as can
anyone else. I don't mean to discourage the efforts to keep orphaned
works available. Here, I am merely opposing to Gentoo distributing
proprietary software.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Ian Stakenvicius]

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On 16/07/14 03:19 PM, Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Alexander Berntsen 
> <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Ulrich is right. Abandonware just means orphaned works -- i.e.
>> the copyright holder hasn't sued anyone yet. Gentoo should not
>> have anything to do with this.
> 
> I agree with you and Ulrich. That was a very poor choice of word
> from my part and not what I wanted to say. I didn't mean we should 
> distribute distfiles without consent, but back them up to a hidden 
> place while it is possible to do so. Obtaining consent to mirror 
> updates or linux specific files of a commercial game which is not 
> distributed anymore when asking politely isn't unseen, because
> often the editor or publisher doesn't care any longer. If you don't
> backup the files first there is little chance you will get them
> from the editor exactly because they don't care.
> 
> Denis.
> 

So, RESTRICT="mirror" would turn into
RESTRICT="officially-dont-mirror-but-actually-do-just-in-case-distfiles-are-dropped-upstream-but-after-we-still-cant-officially-mirror-them-due-to-license-and-copyright-infringement-anyway"
 ?

Pretty sure, no matter what, we aren't going to be allowed to host
these distfiles, even if the upstream host disappears, even if the
company goes under.  If we can't get permission to officially mirror
the files then the company is active and alive, i don't see how it's
likely to get permission after the distfiles/server/company goes away.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ian Stakenvicius <axs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So, RESTRICT="mirror" would turn into
> RESTRICT="officially-dont-mirror-but-actually-do-just-in-case-distfiles-are-dropped-upstream-but-after-we-still-cant-officially-mirror-them-due-to-license-and-copyright-infringement-anyway"
>  ?
>
> Pretty sure, no matter what, we aren't going to be allowed to host
> these distfiles, even if the upstream host disappears, even if the
> company goes under.  If we can't get permission to officially mirror
> the files then the company is active and alive, i don't see how it's
> likely to get permission after the distfiles/server/company goes away.

Either you're trying very hard to not get it or you haven't read my
previous email carefully enough.

Let me try and be clearer. The packages I'm concerned with have had
their distfiles backed up. We're not yet in that situation but the day
the publisher stops distributing these distfiles, I'll be ready to
send the right email to the (hopefully) right person and hope for the
best. I was suggesting we did that more often. And with that I'll stop
here, because these childish arguments are not worth any more of my
time.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Let me try and be clearer. The packages I'm concerned with have had
> their distfiles backed up. We're not yet in that situation but the day
> the publisher stops distributing these distfiles, I'll be ready to
> send the right email to the (hopefully) right person and hope for the
> best. I was suggesting we did that more often. And with that I'll stop
> here, because these childish arguments are not worth any more of my
> time.
>

If people as individuals want to do that then this is something
between them and their local government - it is their responsibility
to follow their own local laws or face the consequences.  If it is a
game they bought then having an original copy of it is even completely
legal everywhere I'm aware of.

It only becomes an issue if Gentoo is going to host a copy of it, even
if privately.  If this is a matter of having some Gentoo project that
lets people donate CDs of old games so that perhaps some day we can
get permission to distribute copies of them, then I'd question the
relevance to our mission, but it seems legal enough.  On the other
hand, having a server someplace full of tarballs of unlicensed
reproductions of distfiles seems like a legal landmine.

I think it is a laudable concept - it just probably isn't wise to do
it under our organization as we really aren't set up for something
like this.  We do operate in many jurisdictions where that activity is
likely to be found illegal, and the US is just one of them (the one
where we keep most of our money, BTW).

Now something that has been talked about is having a better way to
archive patches and such which are legal to store and redistribute.
We don't really have a good solution for that either, but it seems
like an easier problem to solve legally.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Ian Stakenvicius]

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On 16/07/14 03:54 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Denis Dupeyron
> <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Let me try and be clearer. The packages I'm concerned with have
>> had their distfiles backed up. We're not yet in that situation
>> but the day the publisher stops distributing these distfiles,
>> I'll be ready to send the right email to the (hopefully) right
>> person and hope for the best. I was suggesting we did that more
>> often. And with that I'll stop here, because these childish
>> arguments are not worth any more of my time.
>> 
> 
> If people as individuals want to do that then this is something 
> between them and their local government - it is their
> responsibility to follow their own local laws or face the
> consequences.  If it is a game they bought then having an original
> copy of it is even completely legal everywhere I'm aware of.
> 
> It only becomes an issue if Gentoo is going to host a copy of it,
> even if privately.  If this is a matter of having some Gentoo
> project that lets people donate CDs of old games so that perhaps
> some day we can get permission to distribute copies of them, then
> I'd question the relevance to our mission, but it seems legal
> enough.  On the other hand, having a server someplace full of
> tarballs of unlicensed reproductions of distfiles seems like a
> legal landmine.
> 
> I think it is a laudable concept - it just probably isn't wise to
> do it under our organization as we really aren't set up for
> something like this.  We do operate in many jurisdictions where
> that activity is likely to be found illegal, and the US is just one
> of them (the one where we keep most of our money, BTW).
> 
> Now something that has been talked about is having a better way to 
> archive patches and such which are legal to store and
> redistribute. We don't really have a good solution for that either,
> but it seems like an easier problem to solve legally.
> 
> Rich
> 


Also, somewhat tangental to this, I personally think it's also a great
idea to contact upstreams -now- to try and get permission or license
exemptions or whatever so that we can mirror (or fetch, for
fetch-restricted distfiles) even now.  It takes a long time and a lot
of back and forth but it is possible, on occasion.  Then it's just a
matter of adding the gentoo-permissive text to the license file (or
adding it to LICENSE and ${PORTDIR}/licenses/ as a separate file) and
we're good to go.  I've personally only had success doing this with
foldingathome, to date, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: last rites: games-fps/postal2mp-demo

[Alec Warner]

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Wulf C. Krueger <philantrop@exherbo.org>
wrote:

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> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 16.07.2014 18:06, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >> IANAL, but there is no such concept as "abandonware" in copyright
> >> law.
> [...]
> > This is legally a very risky thing to do.  If you're going to do
> > it you want to take advantage of countries with friendly laws,
> > etc.
>
> Good luck with that:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention
>
> Quote: "As of September 2013, there are 167 states that are parties to
> the Berne Convention. This includes 166 UN member states plus the Holy
> See."
>
>
I have some rackspace to give away on my moonbase. Transit to the moon not
included.

-A



> - --
> Best regards, Wulf
>
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