Re: [gentoo-dev] last rites: sys-fs/eudev

["Eddie Chapman" <eddie@ehuk.net>]

Andrew Ammerlaan wrote:
> On 12/09/2023 23:23, Eddie Chapman wrote:
>
>> Andrew Ammerlaan wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 September 2023 21:47:31 CEST, Eddie Chapman <eddie@ehuk.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> * You don't gain anything from using it instead of udev.
>>>>> (Nobody does.)
>>>>>
>>>> Is there only 1 tool for the job? Why do we have both the OpenIPMI
>>>> and ipmitool projects, both curl and wget, chrome and firefox.
>>>> Wouldn't it
>>>> be better if we just choose one of each of those pairs and
>>>> concentrate on it?
>>>>>
>>>>> So why should anyone put up the effort to package it?
>>>>>
>>>> Same question for the above choices and plenty of other examples.
>>>>
>>>> What's wrong with having an alternative purely for competition?
>>>
>>> Having options is only valuable if the different options actually
>>> bring something to the table. Choice for the sake of choice is just a
>>> waste of time and effort. Firefox is clearly different then Chrome,
>>> each comes with its own advantages and disadvantages, and based on
>>> this a user can make an educated choice. What I have not yet read in
>>> any message in this long thread, is **why** one would want to use
>>> eudev, what are its advantages? Why not use
>>> sys-apps/systemd-utils[udev]?
>>
>> You really are on a slippery slope if you're going to insist that
>> someone "ought" to use a certain software, that there is no advantage in
>> using an alternative and therefore you shouldn't. Also, people choose
>> alternatives for entirely non-technical reasons which are valid. These
>> might be political, license, or they just like the author or community
>> of one project better than another. Microsoft Office is probably a
>> better office suite technically and feature-wise than Libreoffice, yet
>> many people use Libreoffice instead. That doesn't mean Libreoffice users
>> are "just plain wrong".  Why do we have so many Linux distributions if
>> they all offer largely the same set of software? Why use Ubuntu over
>> Debian or vice
>> versa? What's the point of openrc? Which is better GCC or Clang/LLVM?
>
> This is a misrepresentation of my point. I never said that any rationale
> for choosing one piece of software over another must be purely technical. A
> license, political issue or whatever may be a legitimate advantage that
> one option has over another. I'm simply stating that no one has explicitly
> provided any rational for choosing eudev over systemd-utils[udev].
>
> From the lack of response to my original question I can only conclude
> that the only reason to choose eudev over systemd-utils[udev] is because
> the latter package has "systemd" in the name (the horror!). If that is
> truly the case it would be a lot simpler to rename sys-apps/systemd-utils
> to sys-apps/utilities-from-the-init-system-that-must-not-be-named, then to
>  continue to maintain eudev.
>
>>> You are free to spend your time and effort on whatever you wish,
>>> maintain eudev as proxy or in some overlay, but don't expect others to
>>> put in their time and effort if you can't convince them the extra
>>> choice has value and is therefore worth their time and effort.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Andrew
>>>
>> Why would you think that by having an alternative in tree it means that
>>  everyone else is then forced into doing work that they don't want to
>> and it will inconvenience everyone?  What if someone came along now and
>> said they were willing to "step up" and maintain eudev and they were
>> suitably qualified? Is that really going to force everyone else to
>> modify their ways?
>
> If someone were to step up and say they are willing to spend their time
> and effort maintaining eudev and fixing the open issues then sure we can
> keep it, I never said otherwise. However this package has been
> maintainer-needed for quite a long time now and no one has stepped up, at
> some point someone has to pull the plug.
>
> My point (which again you misrepresented) is that if you can't provided
> a solid reason for choosing eudev over systemd-utils[udev] you are going to
> have a very hard time convincing others to put in their time and effort
> maintaining it, no matter how loudly you complain on the mailing list. So
> either maintain it yourself in some overlay, or provide some solid and
> convincing argumentation in favor of eudev. And as I already pointed out
> above "choice for the sake of choice" is not a convincing argument.
>
> And then another thing, how is it possible that so many people missed
> the news item? They are displayed quite prominently I think, and emerge
> will keep buggering you about it until it is marked as read. Just
> wondering if there is something that can be improved here.
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I just want to apologise if I made you feel I misrepresented your points.
I certainly didn't mean to do that, and I was quite puzzled to read your
message just now and hear you say that, and having re-read what you wrote
and then I, I'm not sure I understand how I misrepresented you. But anyway
it doesn't matter if I see it or not, I'm sorry and I'll try harder in
future to not do that.

I want to make one thing clear which is I have stressed throughout this
thread that I'm not asking, expecting, demanding anything of anyone. One
of the few things I agree with most people on is that if no one steps up
to maintain then yes it cannot remain in tree, that is obvious. But many
people seem to interpret my arguments as just trying to make as much noise
as possible in order to get eudev to stay, which saddens me as they are
certainly not.

I'm still not much in agreement with you despite your further arguments
but I don't see any point in debating anymore. It's clear to me that those
who make the decisions here are quite strongly of a very different opinion
than I am and I don't think there's any prospect of anybody in this
thread, including me, changing their minds.