From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87C18158089 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:55:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C42002BC06A; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:55:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (woodpecker.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 858182BC014 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:55:42 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <6e35ba9b-a55b-4b36-9d79-96faa5fb1dc6@gentoo.org> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:55:37 +0200 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] last rites: sys-fs/eudev To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org References: <7802203.lOV4Wx5bFT@kona> <92dfbb91650e4fe9c82268ccddf8b0ab.squirrel@ukinbox.ecrypt.net> <4270953.Sgy9Pd6rRy@pinacolada> <25616924cf66471fbd1075753551dffa.squirrel@ukinbox.ecrypt.net> <7B549F95-5EEA-4DD3-A046-AA6F2C7B6349@gentoo.org> <5aa46e8fd2c09e8d54c6a9ec71725529.squirrel@ukinbox.ecrypt.net> Content-Language: en-US, nl-NL From: Andrew Ammerlaan Autocrypt: addr=andrewammerlaan@gentoo.org; keydata= xsBNBF3n3cUBCAC6uoDZ0XzaO29l8AzUblXQ5rxZI7nbGEnfFqjEQCK3oEXxsDa9Ez1myx3M ir53Vyx64Iz1Bq/TOS/PttgguPpiLggCpTTD2vavp5SwFmg272+P8bUJVJF2mMRm0OR/YPiA B5dNfcoLqKIj+ZMOtrZ72B7agkUn+iDt8lB2fZ7XhfZMyQBXICYSe+EiJJmTuvIhHhOn7GCT VjpwGYCCSw3F/j2VPmJPUftz6Nb4oWaiaJ6ZwroS2ECYqZKeo+dXCsmB/LZWYqIFSSPILTLZ f1Hh/TklnQqkNVO+nY/B/o9RVYAhWJbl/F4VaKlRXemE+pDZIALlK8kt0IFU6liUOHHlABEB AAHNLUFuZHJldyBBbW1lcmxhYW4gPGFuZHJld2FtbWVybGFhbkBnZW50b28ub3JnPsLAlwQT AQgAQQIbAwULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUJB17B8hYhBAb/U0G9gF2wvH0HpqGf Y2zU7bzRBQJjZW15AhkBAAoJEKGfY2zU7bzRnzoH/35qBVzk/a2mYkQVDXxtbusEZwFJDNY5 FPVR/qKdN9C0fFdPVmStpMET/YUjltBRNjNwQ2t0Qux0pP2bcRcPXV/6uFifIDdU2wK1cHEZ XWZdhZ9kLQfGF8R0zy0ZiKem+6jIcQ0lZ+sAO5Dp2a/8AWFVWIQs7ZukQYX7bXLj3Hc5J9y3 ZWjwHStoH0fNwTmHy8qNCx02LAbeH4Tite9+wggiOWt85zlRH79aEd/SZwoXa3FQ91v/xkD3 jfv3kF2ImOXSS8lTL9iGYoOuYHQptEXzmSD1fw9fdZAj4f0MZKkFlkRWIHKJi1IMnSDk7f56 2CJ98DJexkG0v88F/ONqJ0POwE0EXefdxQEIAJtT7965MCxOTic3mISWSI6Z3mFFYmUkxQt8 gBVsTAezOrkd6xEt/HnFPZqeGnbSiV8gMFPKv4RkaXxWfQYKm+9/12qJNEFdVop1rpe77lU2 h0elVXuWiWsNmwqEhQcs1mq/awzO81Lyob9Miai2qNQ9MBikmFAp9c4n8C42kPLVrTKPmemI 95gZ1Y830W+udYg1jNqLF2ucMDUX1M1U2EfazWI0pNCwPoKnOqAJS+VQbyxtJ1IlE3+9sk+6 hjlTTF+RDYGv5hUoWkmcXDM2X/Cl0XB4XYOWr17Wa6+WXC+80/iLxxolMqM4KfuIR5OizbqK 2CRAJY7la7TSv1lTD1cAEQEAAcLAfAQYAQgAJgIbDBYhBAb/U0G9gF2wvH0HpqGfY2zU7bzR BQJjZWxoBQkHXsIjAAoJEKGfY2zU7bzR3R0IAISoT/Ev/Z1pEgqXmCMRA33L5AqS9BhpCorq rP+L6bW/3FyZj2CTp2wLvpmipSpQagvfZE/iIxdckQNfTqOvYQzVIHkzMtMWUgo9UPI2YAiT pg6izIBsU6z4CQOS+N+1cfKUax+HflVIhxmHMe//ecABUi3N7tYrKmIsptGLkCkE0mmT7VLp RscXeghS8e5m00Zdm1tDhkkmE8l+U3NbAvhShE9LsxRZpZiV+lFTXd8nBifPea2F7VYteD2j s/aPMSzH+6qmXeTu1gH8HuGZuW/REDY+lTVmhZ3Caa50yTNB5s90kprPvIfDAB6cbglpwvpD eZueZnPaHcGF1SLcC48= Organization: Gentoo Linux In-Reply-To: <5aa46e8fd2c09e8d54c6a9ec71725529.squirrel@ukinbox.ecrypt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 14c30cc4-611f-4821-80e4-01380addd8e8 X-Archives-Hash: 0f536ac3003dec73685409b621e655a1 On 12/09/2023 23:23, Eddie Chapman wrote: > Andrew Ammerlaan wrote: >> >> On 12 September 2023 21:47:31 CEST, Eddie Chapman wrote: >> >>> Andreas K. Huettel wrote: >>> >>> >>>> * You don't gain anything from using it instead of udev. >>>> (Nobody does.) >>>> >>> Is there only 1 tool for the job? Why do we have both the OpenIPMI and >>> ipmitool projects, both curl and wget, chrome and firefox. Wouldn't it >>> be better if we just choose one of each of those pairs and concentrate >>> on it? >>>> >>>> So why should anyone put up the effort to package it? >>> >>> Same question for the above choices and plenty of other examples. >>> >>> What's wrong with having an alternative purely for competition? >> >> Having options is only valuable if the different options actually bring >> something to the table. Choice for the sake of choice is just a waste of >> time and effort. Firefox is clearly different then Chrome, each comes >> with its own advantages and disadvantages, and based on this a user can >> make an educated choice. What I have not yet read in any message in this >> long thread, is **why** one would want to use eudev, what are its >> advantages? Why not use sys-apps/systemd-utils[udev]? > > You really are on a slippery slope if you're going to insist that someone > "ought" to use a certain software, that there is no advantage in using an > alternative and therefore you shouldn't. Also, people choose alternatives > for entirely non-technical reasons which are valid. These might be > political, license, or they just like the author or community of one > project better than another. Microsoft Office is probably a better office > suite technically and feature-wise than Libreoffice, yet many people use > Libreoffice instead. That doesn't mean Libreoffice users are "just plain > wrong". Why do we have so many Linux distributions if they all offer > largely the same set of software? Why use Ubuntu over Debian or vice > versa? What's the point of openrc? Which is better GCC or Clang/LLVM? This is a misrepresentation of my point. I never said that any rationale for choosing one piece of software over another must be purely technical. A license, political issue or whatever may be a legitimate advantage that one option has over another. I'm simply stating that no one has explicitly provided any rational for choosing eudev over systemd-utils[udev]. From the lack of response to my original question I can only conclude that the only reason to choose eudev over systemd-utils[udev] is because the latter package has "systemd" in the name (the horror!). If that is truly the case it would be a lot simpler to rename sys-apps/systemd-utils to sys-apps/utilities-from-the-init-system-that-must-not-be-named, then to continue to maintain eudev. >> You are free to spend your time and effort on whatever you wish, maintain >> eudev as proxy or in some overlay, but don't expect others to put in >> their time and effort if you can't convince them the extra choice has >> value and is therefore worth their time and effort. >> >> Best regards, >> Andrew > > Why would you think that by having an alternative in tree it means that > everyone else is then forced into doing work that they don't want to and > it will inconvenience everyone? What if someone came along now and said > they were willing to "step up" and maintain eudev and they were suitably > qualified? Is that really going to force everyone else to modify their > ways? > If someone were to step up and say they are willing to spend their time and effort maintaining eudev and fixing the open issues then sure we can keep it, I never said otherwise. However this package has been maintainer-needed for quite a long time now and no one has stepped up, at some point someone has to pull the plug. My point (which again you misrepresented) is that if you can't provided a solid reason for choosing eudev over systemd-utils[udev] you are going to have a very hard time convincing others to put in their time and effort maintaining it, no matter how loudly you complain on the mailing list. So either maintain it yourself in some overlay, or provide some solid and convincing argumentation in favor of eudev. And as I already pointed out above "choice for the sake of choice" is not a convincing argument. And then another thing, how is it possible that so many people missed the news item? They are displayed quite prominently I think, and emerge will keep buggering you about it until it is marked as read. Just wondering if there is something that can be improved here. Best regards, Andrew