From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03662138334 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:48:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D7618E08BE; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:48:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (dev.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 861DAE0849 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:48:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from thinkpad.fritz.box (unknown [IPv6:2001:4060:c005:3f00:9491:b020:96bd:fae]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: soap) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D32C934BEF4 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:48:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5b46c29caf46e7b0294509a243cc80b35173dfb2.camel@gentoo.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] use.desc: add global USE flag 'split-sbin' From: David Seifert To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:48:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <2b4de5d1-e5f3-1c9d-792f-0e64002d04e3@uls.co.za> References: <20191012110023.165840-1-soap@gentoo.org> <1bbad081be57654e20e590734ed8aa88dc6f6176.camel@gentoo.org> <20191012160228.GA2481@linux1.home> <25763900.3IMS5cSOPn@ernie> <86031cc11741c13b354ad85577a1e32c4ca97460.camel@gentoo.org> <0b3627cb08065b8d6d02a1d8826ab316ecdaccd0.camel@gentoo.org> <2b4de5d1-e5f3-1c9d-792f-0e64002d04e3@uls.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.32.4 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: 614d4f9e-eb59-4e12-a4e4-8534a1576617 X-Archives-Hash: 68fe682651aefb2e59d5eebfdeeeb356 On Wed, 2019-10-16 at 11:18 +0200, Jaco Kroon wrote: > Hi, > > On 2019/10/15 19:34, David Seifert wrote: > > On Tue, 2019-10-15 at 12:04 -0400, Mike Gilbert wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:02 PM Mike Gilbert > > > > > > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 AM David Seifert > > > > wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 2019-10-13 at 12:33 -0400, Mike Gilbert wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 1:52 PM David Seifert < > > > > > > soap@gentoo.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, 2019-10-12 at 19:01 +0200, Dennis Schridde wrote: > > > > > > > > On Samstag, 12. Oktober 2019 18:02:28 CEST William > > > > > > > > Hubbs > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 01:11:49PM +0200, Michał > > > > > > > > > Górny > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2019-10-12 at 13:00 +0200, David Seifert > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > * Some distros have not just merged / and /usr, > > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have also merged /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. By > > > > > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > > > users the choice of merging */bin and */sbin, > > > > > > > > > > > Gentoo follows suit. > > > > > > > > > > What about the scenario when /bin has been merged > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > /usr/sbin > > > > > > > > > > and /sbin with /usr/bin? ;-P > > > > > > > > > I also don't see the need for something like this. > > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > idea of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > /usr > > > > > > > > > merge is to have all binaries available in one place, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > is not a good justification for separating bin from > > > > > > > > > sbin. > > > > > > > > Do I read this correctly? USE=-split-usr currently > > > > > > > > means > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > /bin, > > > > > > > > /sbin, / > > > > > > > > usr/bin and /usr/sbin point to the same directory? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that is not the case, then I agree that users should > > > > > > > > have the > > > > > > > > possibility > > > > > > > > to set it up like this and USE=-split-sbin should be > > > > > > > > supported. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Dennis > > > > > > > I agree, I wasn't aware that USE=-split-usr implies the > > > > > > > complete 2- > > > > > > > level (/usr and *sbin) merge. In that case, all of this > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > obsolete. > > > > > > That was NOT my intention when I introduced the split-usr > > > > > > USE > > > > > > flag. > > > > > > > > > > > > For bin/sbin, I would prefer to drop any conflicting links > > > > > > unconditionally. Do you have examples of scenarios where > > > > > > this > > > > > > is not > > > > > > possible? > > > > > > > > > > > William has confirmed on IRC that USE=-split-usr performs the > > > > > complete > > > > > Fedora-esque /usr merge (which makes sense IMO). > > > > William's opinion is not the only one that matters. > > > Sorry, I guess you are referring to the behavior baselayout? That > > > doesn't necessarily align with the global usage. > > > > > https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/baselayout.git/tree/Makefile#n93 > > > > Clearly the usr-merge in baselayout intends to merge all these 4 > > directories. There is currently no option to merge /usr and / but > > keep > > /bin and /sbin separate, so the most parsimonious solution here is > > to > > assume that usr-merge semantics in Gentoo is about merging all 4 > > directories. > > > > > For what it's worth. All of my systems are installed with a fixed- > size > 512MB / with everything else (including /usr) on separate LVs. > > Whilst sbin vs bin is just a matter of what's available, to me it > makes > sense to keep these split. To me it's always been logical to keep > administrative type (root) tools under sbin, and stuff that's > generally > useful for users under bin. > > Keeping / and /usr split (or the ability to keep it split) is rather > crucial for me. It's for historic installations a matter of space > constraints on /. For new installations it's a matter of keeping / > as > small as possible in order to have a smallish bootable system which > can > be used for recovering the rest of the system, ideally without an > initrd > (which also works to an extent). > > Kind Regards, > Jaco > For the umpteenth time time: nothing will change. You can keep your (albeit broken) separate / and /usr partitions. *NOTHING* will change for anyone. There are no plans to change the defaults. This is *MERELY* about giving people the chance to opt in to the /usr-merge. That said, the idea of using / as a "recovery" filesystem in general is broken: https://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken/ And no, this is not systemd breaking your system, or Lennart, it's distros and userlands not being careful to have things in / never depend on things in /usr.