From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5171113828B for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 16:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27047234005; Fri, 27 May 2016 16:15:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 162EB21C012 for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 16:15:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.128.100.146] (unknown [100.42.103.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: wizardedit) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F6C2340A8E for ; Fri, 27 May 2016 16:15:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] gtk/gtk2/gtk3 USE flag situation To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org References: <1464358866.13834.59.camel@gentoo.org> From: Austin English X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <5748728A.1010404@gentoo.org> Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 11:15:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1464358866.13834.59.camel@gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: 87a4c49c-3fb7-43b7-9694-c38c702e3d47 X-Archives-Hash: 7382b7db20f1355ade856652b7b247b7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 05/27/2016 09:21 AM, Mart Raudsepp wrote: > Hello, > > Despite it being 2016 and gtk2 pretty much dead, buried and forgotten > upstream, many applications still support only gtk2, have subtle issues= > with their gtk3 port, or support both, with some of our userbase > clinging to gtk2 for dubious political or aesthetical reasons. > > For the latter cases, despite GNOME teams policy and strong preference > on not providing a choice and just choosing gtk2 or gtk3 (gtk3 if it's > working as good as gtk2), some cases exist where the maintainers want > to provide such choice. In some cases it is understandable for a short > while during transition, e.g firefox. In other cases, it is purely for > the sake of providing the choice of working with a deprecated toolkit, > apparently. > > My highly biased essay aside, we need to finally globally agree on what= > we do in this situation. If we allow this choice at all, only for > special cases, or widespread. And if this choice is provided, how do we= > name the USE flag. > > Historically, for very good reasons in past and present GNOME team > members opinion, USE=3Dgtk has always meant to mean to provide support > for gtk in general, not any particular version. This is opposite to > what the Qt team has been doing. What are those good reasons? Every discussion I've seen about this has Gnome team saying "There are good reasons" without actually _listing_ them. It sounds like the 'good reason' is that people will get some sort of gtk support no matter what the application supports, but as had been said already, that isn't exactly a good thing. AFAICT, this only serves to cause more confusion. A user setting USE=3Dgt= k may expect gtk2 (because that's what it provided in the past), then all of a sudden has their system pulled out from underneath them to get gtk3.= Ignoring that past issue, there's no discussion here of how the transition to gtk4 would be handled in a situation where gtk=3Dgtk-any, but not all applications support gtk4. What will you do then, introduce a force-gtk3 USE flag to work around the problem in the future? No one is saying cleaning up the mess will be easy, but it is needed to prevent user confusion and prevent further problems down the road. I have no political feelings towards gtk2/3, for the record :). - -Austin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXSHKKAAoJEACzKVe5S/Ph3hcQAKpAHkn3SRrfG4ZiU7Hd2qj8 yOE2lvWAzPUN922uZbhzf1un1GG+xlQ5mgtPoWI/d6LQEjzOIL94gD1GjsEzLn8+ pGjD+dZfyzz1QdyQ6YOm6mbvVrQpNY8m8eZ++Evf7q/zdsYbvmyEu+dnIrcCz6SO EkCLwKt5BlyyGUiMcgNRoy+SmBbk31YV9VeIkmhv0FC05O1gPZMzaDhCMwPYW8JK 7IBeMn1C2oTno9Pd6C360+xjPsIdtVvUJ9dfebLu1DfOPD+qBzfY69jtMsOFyOIM xf7L/o/Lmr0JvFqmtX0G3OooglxiMC8yzj7xhuNADDERh1mjVWo0ktfPKOCVRFU9 LqeJr4uZneuezXbP1LVb44vGWyiMSCZYuM7sXfVSn1dbtBvgb932A7sud1NSTVmQ TMyLUAGVNXlOXNbMcFPnXBcMLzy/fTNYDclpc8cwHD5Pyq8WR0MybS141jD7Z55F J1RRSPETKyq8WxSwCNjDYgguJmY0HrFFlfa7P45EHzhKktcPacCE3bOg5joNPsTM aMREjMtb4zG0tWRdJ4JaSGFCHcrK709I/ED0v1qr378Rgu8+OJxU+f/IWFh7NRZY auefisbLU9LRcMQUbn07t2GQTREFjgahM/8a2WhcQgV7qIc01ih6I2o7jQgO6SfN ob/dqOl8/yVzbfAVA14m =3DdD1I -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----