From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367C13877A for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2014 16:27:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 521DCE09A5; Fri, 8 Aug 2014 16:27:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f50.google.com (mail-la0-f50.google.com [209.85.215.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 148A0E0985 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2014 16:27:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f50.google.com with SMTP id gf5so4871227lab.9 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2014 09:27:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type; bh=y9Y6gMQFGDZPG8emX0t/MbMWdh/wlivfaM3YazWI4MM=; b=Ci6pmJ9HS8fz7Zk0Lg7K3RHPuCZcCIY1uLpwUl6cuqQR6j9gadr6iFDo19oZ+0rM2A 6/gk26+8BJPG5QkNH/RS8n45gpY1OqvdFlsJqK9hjOdQKBOQI86Tg/XabDbjIvDo7Xy6 dlJQb8ko6MJU0svUdVGsy8E5hH28HqEVSK7Iag52Stk7bi03Y1KQtVE1exSnBm5vCqSR 6np0Q0J0ojo0DKHFoeiEZZNeY41yZymvn4rq2WUJtkC62qderdB28c98vKdvq6Hf96u1 Zd5UgzSsTvLJfcsTfOZKW6LuPDtXhF2yC7FlzgFy5BcaE+BLwf6RbliqfURRaYX22LWM erHA== X-Received: by 10.152.5.102 with SMTP id r6mr2626966lar.81.1407515223417; Fri, 08 Aug 2014 09:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.60.64] (office.healtech.ru. [89.208.21.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id lh6sm1747546lab.17.2014.08.08.09.27.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Aug 2014 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53e4fa56.2679980a.47a0.27e3@mx.google.com> X-Google-Original-Message-ID: <188605800.20140808202700@gmail.com>> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 20:27:00 +0400 From: Igor X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Ian Stakenvicius Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] minimalistic emerge In-Reply-To: <53E4F0B4.9000806@gentoo.org> References: <53e4ccbd.c2b4700a.3bec.2414@mx.google.com> <20140808142203.777a1818@googlemail.com> <53e4eb6b.0190700a.5f01.2a15@mx.google.com> <53E4F0B4.9000806@gentoo.org> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------0A211405E07E25921" X-Archives-Salt: 40853289-6b50-4218-ac81-987f1d14f86f X-Archives-Hash: b3a4967faabd557e670c4783fca48d00 ------------0A211405E07E25921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ian, Friday, August 8, 2014, 7:45:56 PM, you wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > Igor - you need to read the emerge man page. > "emerge -uDNav @world" is the recommended way to update your system, > because then you will stay in sync with all appropriate updates in the > portage tree. However, if you don't want to do this, just "emerge -u > @world" -- that will only update packages in your world file, and will > only force dependency updates when the new version is required (based > on minimum versions in package dependencies). And if you only want to > upgrade things piecemeal, then use "--exclude [pkg]" to skip updates, > or "emerge -1 [pkg]" to only update an explicit list, or use > /etc/portage/package.mask to avoid updating to newer versions. It's unreliable, if you update system on daily basis - the system=20 will get unstable and eventually will not even boot. It will be=20 up-to-date but not functional.=20 UDEV was the latest example :-( The updated system requires constant=20 human assistance and the number of CRITICAL bugs is always=20 constant (heart beat bug affected the latest systems but not old). I know no server that is automatically updated with -uDNav @world=20 and works for more than 6 months.=20 I would do it but I know that each time @world updated - I'm in=20 a possible trouble. I need to check all config files, all daemons=20 for changes, boot managers, mdadmin, web servers, mysql, udev,=20 and the surprise will happen when you boot next time. May be in=20 in 300 days, then you try to remember what was changed in=20 100 days, it's close to a hell. Maintainers - don't have time to test packages against old=20 versions, they just pull in the new versions in e-build with >=20 each is doing that and the resulting update is an enormous=20 surplus. > If you're asking for something even lighter than what 'emerge -u > @world' will provide, on an automagic system-wide level, then i think > you'll need to author some detailed specifications as to exactly what > it is you want this new updating feature to do. > Please note, though, that we as Gentoo developers can't guarantee that > your system is going to remain stable if you don't update --deep, > because we can't test every possible combination of every > stable-keyworded dependency version against every package -- not even > a tinderbox makes that particularly feasible, there's just too many > permutations. I also am not sure at this time if 'emerge -u' would You need to know what packages are installed and how they're installed=20 world wide. That is the only way to stabilize Gentoo=20 architecture. Firing updates not knowing what happened - is the lack=20 of feedback that is hurting gentoo development.=20 (of course all is IMHO)=20 > upgrade dependencies when the version installed was removed from the > portage tree, and this may have multiple adverse effects on your > system long-term depending on why that older version was dropped from > the tree. > So, the recommendation remains that one should update the entire > system via -uDN in order to receive all of the updates available for > your entire dependency tree. Is there any warranty that updated with -uDN system will remain=20 full functional for 1 year? I have 100% warranty that not updated system is going to remain functional for 5 or 6 years. I have some with=20 7 years uptime.=20 But if I'm going to update a SINGLE package on this system with --emerge=20 it will pull EVERYTHING in, while nodep - may work fine.=20 I'm in a trap - if I update daily - the systems are offline, I'm not able= =20 to maintain systems after updates - requires too much resources. If you hav= e=20 1 gentoo it might take a few days, imagine you have 100 or 1000 systems and= =20 they do not share the same hardware or the same boot locations,=20 they all can be managed by 2 people if not updated and you need about 100= =20 people if you update.=20 The number of bugs is the same. It's more difficult to hack into 1996 syste= m=20 than in 2012. I'm very sorry may be I'm not getting it right, it hunts me how it's advisable to update system daily and I'm having a very bad life experience= =20 out of advise. May be it's only me? I can't keep a single system functional with auto-updates for just 6 months= =20 - something always breaks. For me Gentoo is not a toy, it's a tool I use=20 daily. If a tool is broken - my product is broken. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2 > iF4EAREIAAYFAlPk8LQACgkQ2ugaI38ACPA7KAEAgp2dnrl17tsbfWhejRW75/LB > Z46UnOotVyIQyoVuQPkA/3AQ4NtBE6R216mtFSwj/8xSetNkKnCx3gBxe6vCJt8T > =3DEq1Y > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=20 Best regards, Igor mailto:lanthruster@gmail.com ------------0A211405E07E25921 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [gentoo-dev] minimalistic emerge Hello Ian,

Friday, August 8, 2014, 7:45:56 PM, you wrote:


> -----BEGIN PGP SIG= NED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256

> Igor - you need to read the emerge man page.

> "emerge -uDNav @world" is the recommended way to update your system, > because then you will stay in sync with all appropriate updates in the=
> portage tree.  However, if you don't want to do this, just "emerg= e -u
> @world" -- that will only update packages in your world file, and will=
> only force dependency updates when the new version is required (based<= br> > on minimum versions in package dependencies).  And if you only wa= nt to
> upgrade things piecemeal, then use "--exclude [pkg]" to skip updates,<= br> > or "emerge -1 [pkg]" to only update an explicit list, or use
> /etc/portage/package.mask to avoid updating to newer versions.

It's unreliable, if y= ou update system on daily basis - the system 
will get unstable and eventually will not even boot. It will be 
up-to-date but not functional. 
UDEV was the latest example :-( The updated system requires constant <= br> human assistance and the number of CRITICAL bugs is always 
constant (heart beat bug affected the latest systems but not old).
I know no server that is automatically updated with -uDNav @world 
and works for more than 6 months. 

I would do it but I know that each time @world updated - I'm in 
a possible trouble. I need to check all config files, all daemons 
for changes, boot managers, mdadmin, web servers, mysql, udev, 
and the surprise will happen when you boot next time. May be in 
in 300 days, then you try to remember what was changed in 
100 days, it's close to a hell.

Maintainers - don't have time to test packages against old 
versions, they just pull in the new versions in e-build with > 
each is doing that and the resulting update is an enormous 
surplus.

> If you're asking f= or something even lighter than what 'emerge -u
> @world' will provide, on an automagic system-wide level, then i think<= br> > you'll need to author some detailed specifications as to exactly what<= br> > it is you want this new updating feature to do.

> Please note, though, that we as Gentoo developers can't guarantee that=
> your system is going to remain stable if you don't update --deep,
> because we can't test every possible combination of every
> stable-keyworded dependency version against every package -- not even<= br> > a tinderbox makes that particularly feasible, there's just too many
> permutations.  I also am not sure at this time if 'emerge -u' wou= ld

You need to know what= packages are installed and how they're installed 
world wide. That is the only way to stabilize Gentoo 
architecture. Firing updates not knowing what happened - is the lack <= br> of feedback that is hurting gentoo development. 

(of course all is IMHO) 

> upgrade dependenci= es when the version installed was removed from the
> portage tree, and this may have multiple adverse effects on your
> system long-term depending on why that older version was dropped from<= br> > the tree.

> So, the recommendation remains that one should update the entire
> system via -uDN in order to receive all of the updates available for > your entire dependency tree.

Is there any warranty= that updated with -uDN system will remain 
full functional for 1 year? I have 100% warranty that not updated
system is going to remain functional for 5 or 6 years. I have some with&nbs= p;
7 years uptime. 

But if I'm going to update a SINGLE package on this system with --emerge&nb= sp;
it will pull EVERYTHING in, while nodep - may work fine. 

I'm in a trap - if I update daily - the systems are offline, I'm not able&n= bsp;
to maintain systems after updates - requires too much resources. If you hav= e 
1 gentoo it might take a few days, imagine you have 100 or 1000 systems and=  
they do not share the same hardware or the same boot locations, 
they all can be managed by 2 people if not updated and you need about 100&n= bsp;
people if you update. 

The number of bugs is the same. It's more difficult to hack into 1996 syste= m 
than in 2012.

I'm very sorry may be I'm not getting it right, it hunts me how it's
advisable to update system daily and I'm having a very bad life experience&= nbsp;
out of advise. May be it's only me?

I can't keep a single system functional with auto-updates for just 6 months=  
- something always breaks. For me Gentoo is not a toy, it's a tool I use&nb= sp;
daily. If a tool is broken - my product is broken.


> -----BEGIN PGP SIG= NATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2

> iF4EAREIAAYFAlPk8LQACgkQ2ugaI38ACPA7KAEAgp2dnrl17tsbfWhejRW75/LB
> Z46UnOotVyIQyoVuQPkA/3AQ4NtBE6R216mtFSwj/8xSetNkKnCx3gBxe6vCJt8T
> =3DEq1Y
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




<= i>-- 
Best regards,
 Igor                   &= nbsp;        mailto:lanthruster@gmail.com ------------0A211405E07E25921--