From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3767513877A for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4BAF1E0A87; Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:23:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EC03E0A5B for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:23:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id v6so3905809lbi.38 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:23:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type; bh=tuAV2Iw7+S5NIBp7mU4zhe8mHaCwuBOC3gaZqlN90aA=; b=ZKZftL42Uk3x9OogfKPwgl/tDbpF0o2W/Bgrxu75D4qFKRrAtYtuQZqldNrh4vdlxf Q2UDDGly0fWWEZNogaQg0mF9ubxRexb42RZ9JqHX9ELSxIGEHmozBr0jaHOQzF7qSPc1 5P38cZXcChU2rdDDvu26TBVPbnOXOJUFOwxS1EUILBZgpwRPoMCHhHV1g6f/4XxqEjqq 9nF2pMKpGsSIXW/XVSMC0sGO87sUOcFOfkzaW88aLwGaqMKZfNaEpcFyHSmYYVJJUTp3 BpscTuEPIzNT9iWQPDrZojjTsz69qd/3jv3YRR+SZhcJtUvzcLzl9dxKDjouoowpGk0s kdvQ== X-Received: by 10.112.166.139 with SMTP id zg11mr21363513lbb.62.1407511404559; Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.60.64] (office.healtech.ru. [89.208.21.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id si1sm4854631lbb.43.2014.08.08.08.23.23 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53e4eb6b.0190700a.5f01.2a15@mx.google.com> X-Google-Original-Message-ID: <151623018.20140808192321@gmail.com>> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 19:23:21 +0400 From: Igor X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Ciaran McCreesh Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] minimalistic emerge In-Reply-To: <20140808142203.777a1818@googlemail.com> References: <53e4ccbd.c2b4700a.3bec.2414@mx.google.com> <20140808142203.777a1818@googlemail.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------06910204B24BB3028" X-Archives-Salt: bb9706d3-72b4-4863-bb0c-156949b6d710 X-Archives-Hash: 1cc923deaa427155e27809db9b91eef9 ------------06910204B24BB3028 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ciaran, Friday, August 8, 2014, 5:22:03 PM, you wrote: >> get the result - install the application you need, leaving everything >> else AS IS untouched and stable? > cave resolve --lazy :P A great option name :-) I liked it. Wish it were there.=20 Updating only the minimum necessary packages required is natural, wide system update is a wrong math model. There are regulations=20 in avionics, cybernetics and other life sensitive construction bureaus=20 prohibiting system wide updates. BTW - directly follows from nature.=20 Any complex bird is not updated on daily basis, it takes small steps,=20 small changes targeting only small fixes - natures is adaptive and=20 doesn't know where to move, it probes carefully, always backups, always reversible, moves forward but very accurately, if the change=20 in a bird is deep the chance is that it will stop functioning and die - for= =20 nature that means millions of years of genome programming is wasted. Whew,= =20 a lot of work. NATURE is VERY lazy, and that's why I liked your option name a lot :-) you= =20 nailed it.=20 From=20Cybernetics:=20 Laziness is a built in algorithm. It controls system resources in case ther= e=20 is no threat to the system purposes with higher priorities. In other words = -=20 if what you're doing right now is well adopted to fulfill hard-coded in=20 genome high priority purposes - there IS NO NEED TO CHANGE anything.=20 GENTOO (and many other systems) in many ways violate the profound nature=20 laws found out by venerable scientists, therefore what is done in long=20 perspective is futile, it's more like painting the grass.=20 You need 100 times more effort and resources to keep grass painted, each=20 time you paint - a system wide update happens which is then REVERSED by nat= ure.=20 May be not a good example - but reflecting.=20 One of the main built-in by nature perceptions of what is RIGHT or WRONG in= human Genmoe is time. After all our lifes are limited and the most precious what we have= =20 is time.=20 Returning to our programming.=20 Anything what is designed by a programmer for a user should be first evalua= ted from=20 the time users spends. In fact you have no control over it - as a programme= r you either=20 accept it or leave the trade. If user feels he spends time - the project is= a failure. Anything you ever design - should require no time for a user to achieve the= =20 result. And finding and accessing what eats time is the virtue a talented p= rogrammer has.=20 Those are problems we face with GENTOO design if only the team could clearl= y state=20 the problems and shift focus on their solution - GENTOO would be the greate= st system=20 ever.=20 BUT=20 From=20Cybernetics:=20 As the environment changes - most systems are designed to adopt. Meaning th= ere are many alternative=20 systems solving differently same tasks, not VERY differently but differentl= y enough to function=20 in a situation where another system would cease. Many variants of the same = system with variations exist=20 in nature. That what keeps is pulling in different directions, we're moving somewhere = as most of us are not=20 aware of deep algorithms inside of us which rules us so subtly.=20 The nature is the greatest system designer, we all have to learn from it.= =20 PS=20 Jeroen knows an option, but he won't tell - he is from=20 GENTOO bug tracking service - no one can stand bug tracking for=20 more than 1 year and he is there for more than 5, so you reckon.. he is probably reading this right now - try to be very quiet... --=20 Best regards, Igor mailto:lanthruster@gmail.com ------------06910204B24BB3028 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [gentoo-dev] minimalistic emerge Hello Ciaran,<= br>
Friday, August 8, 2014, 5:22:03 PM, you wrote:

>> get the result= - install the application you need, leaving everything
>> else AS IS untouched and stable?

> cave resolve --lazy :P

A great option name := -) I liked it. Wish it were there. 

Updating only the minimum necessary packages required is natural, wide
system update is a wrong math model. There are regulations 
in avionics, cybernetics and other life sensitive construction bureaus = ;
prohibiting system wide updates. BTW - directly follows from nature. <= br>
Any complex bird is not updated on daily basis, it takes small steps, =
small changes targeting only small fixes - natures is adaptive and 
doesn't know where to move, it probes carefully, always backups, always
reversible, moves forward but very accurately, if the change 
in a bird is deep the chance is that it will stop functioning and die - for=  
nature that means millions of years of genome programming is wasted. Whew,&= nbsp;
a lot of work.

NATURE is VERY lazy, and that's why I liked your option name a lot :-) you&= nbsp;
nailed it. 

From=20Cybernetics: 

Laziness is a built in algorithm. It controls system resources in case ther= e 
is no threat to the system purposes with higher priorities. In other words = - 
if what you're doing right now is well adopted to fulfill hard-coded in&nbs= p;
genome high priority purposes - there IS NO NEED TO CHANGE anything. <= br>

GENTOO (and many other systems) in many ways violate the profound nature&nb= sp;
laws found out by venerable scientists, therefore what is done in long = ;
perspective is futile, it's more like painting the grass. 
You need 100 times more effort and resources to keep grass painted, each&nb= sp;
time you paint - a system wide update happens which is then REVERSED by nat= ure. 
May be not a good example - but reflecting. 

One of the main built-in by nature perceptions of what is RIGHT or WRONG in= human Genmoe
is time. After all our lifes are limited and the most precious what we have=  
is time. 

Returning to our programming. 

Anything what is designed by a programmer for a user should be first evalua= ted from 
the time users spends. In fact you have no control over it - as a programme= r you either 
accept it or leave the trade. If user feels he spends time - the project is= a failure.

Anything you ever design - should require no time for a user to achieve the=  
result. And finding and accessing what eats time is the virtue a talented p= rogrammer
has. 

Those are problems we face with GENTOO design if only the team could clearl= y state 
the problems and shift focus on their solution - GENTOO would be the greate= st system 
ever. 

BUT 

From=20Cybernetics: 

As the environment changes - most systems are designed to adopt. Meaning th= ere are many alternative 
systems solving differently same tasks, not VERY differently but differentl= y enough to function 
in a situation where another system would cease. Many variants of the same = system with variations exist 
in nature.

That what keeps is pulling in different directions, we're moving somewhere = as most of us are not 
aware of deep algorithms inside of us which rules us so subtly. 

The nature is the greatest system designer, we all have to learn from it.&n= bsp;

PS 

Jeroen knows an option, but he won't tell - he is from 
GENTOO bug tracking service - no one can stand bug tracking for 
more than 1 year and he is there for more than 5, so you reckon..
he is probably reading this right now - try to be very quiet...

--=  
Best regards,
 Igor                   &= nbsp;        mailto:lan= thruster@gmail.com ------------06910204B24BB3028--