From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9683138247 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:26:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C248E0BEB; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:26:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f45.google.com (mail-la0-f45.google.com [209.85.215.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12526E0AD6 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:26:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b8so554582lan.18 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:26:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:reply-to:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type; bh=DvJTLvqNBDPPDj1YPz6v1lF/r2GtJXOa4LCaf/KIsew=; b=ZC4CrPXhiBnh0xz4Sdqbv+jbzjyPyJO0HbYMbvhN3RKYRGfiMCI/UHGk5VHmeWFA8F bZaITn0H90BWRjCNHYBhfCPd0OZQ1qYbl8BgyHRPETtmimupmXtjTGWUegvuG5U/TSvv ROIVMjwoXlQDq5LlL1j9rxmgYBBbB+UAR8s8prNuV2GN7Z9mts20WvdVOy0OFjEjOfVw 7grHrdfHTS5OkLSRYNboSsgebZ/anluRZruMDJV/DaZ8OjQOfKa8GyX2BEVs04d+bqNV QB0PWJkjVxUiLtYesZMN1DyeAz0kkCeP5DaQrnvOA+0rrqxDavm+whgZ7WqL+Ei/kkbP tBWQ== X-Received: by 10.152.22.228 with SMTP id h4mr1484126laf.71.1389281187432; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.60.64] (office.healtech.ru. [89.208.21.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ld10sm1856854lab.8.2014.01.09.07.26.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:26:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 19:26:24 +0400 From: Igor X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <52cebfa2.aa78980a.7a02.42e5@mx.google.com> To: Christopher Schwan Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Portage QOS In-Reply-To: <6345949.JsNcU8lWSX@cschwan-laptop> References: <52ce4eab.463f700a.4b43.16bd@mx.google.com> <52ce9994.24f5980a.0660.342e@mx.google.com> <6345949.JsNcU8lWSX@cschwan-laptop> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------03D0C822334F2D090" X-Archives-Salt: 9988ac16-a234-4654-a775-483aa5362dc2 X-Archives-Hash: 63d828387dbcc0af70b5ff040cbb8612 ------------03D0C822334F2D090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Christopher, Thursday, January 9, 2014, 6:12:37 PM, you wrote: > you motivate your proposal by claiming the Gentoo Project stagnates which= you > relate with its decline in popularity: >> According to Linux Counter >> http://web.archive.org/web/20120101000000*/http://linuxcounter.net/distr= ibut >> ions/stats.html >> In January 2012, Gentoo distro had 5.32% >> In January 2012, Gentoo had 4.04% >> In November 2013, Gentoo had 4,21% >> And from my experience of Gentoo forums, gentoo.wiki - I vote for Gentoo= at >> least not gaining new users. If in several years the number of users is = not >> increased - we can tell about stagnation. > But let me ask this question: Is the number of users really that importan= t to > Gentoo?=20 Should be. It looks important for Gentoo and the Gentoo developers. For Gentoo - the more users Gentoo has the more resources it can deploy=20 in development and support. May be the world domination isn't the correct= =20 word but a steady growth of Gentoo systems globally is a good goal. If Gent= oo=20 looses 1% annually in 5 years there would be no new developers motivated en= ough=20 to push the project ahead and the old ones would think bad about investing = their=20 life in what is not gaining popularity and they will not be that enthusiast= ic,=20 getting demoralized. Without fresh blood the crucial people will get old/ti= red and alas.=20 I'm sure you don't need Gentoo only for yourself as nobody else here does. = It's a project=20 for people, the people get it running and it's the treasure the Gentoo has = so why not=20 to turn towards users?=20 Try build a house, tell friends about the house, unite them in one goal and= =20 then build it for free and for everybody, then if the house is not working = well=20 - you have friends no more, next time you're alone in one huge house,=20 nobody needs, nobody will help and you can't just support it on your own.= =20 > Since it does not strive for world domination I think all that matters > is to keep the current userbase happy. True. That is the goal. =20 > From your thread I do not understand > whats wrong on that side: >> For various reasons many techs were not implemented and now Gentoo is in= a=20 > kind of stagnation. > What do you mean by that in particular?=20 Gentoo stopped. The work is done but it's not a game changer. The=20 ebuilds have approximately the same time to install, the failure rate is ab= out the same,=20 emerge is getting slower. The number of users decrease.=20 It looks like this is because it's not clear where to go and what to change= . What to change=20 exactly to bring more users? Not clear. No information. Apparently the criteria is timing. When you develop a human access interfac= e the most=20 reliable thing to check your work against is the time required for an avera= ge user to achieve the goal.=20 Time is the most important in our lifes and this is the criteria that alway= s works. There=20 are a variety of users, with different genetics, different views, education= and skills but you=20 can find an interface that unites them all and everyone is feeling like it'= s easy. It's not an easy task because what looks easy for a developer might look alien for his = neighbour.=20 If we decrease time required for the users to maintain Gentoo and decrease = time for developers=20 to push the project - then Gentoo will grow. > And what is wrong with=20 > bugs.gentoo.org? Wouldn't it be better to talk about how attract more=20 > developers? =20 Good question.=20 You can't attract enough supporters not being successful or without paying them. Supporters are the same users if you're loosing users the number of supporters are decreasing. The times are changed. The projects are so complicated nowadays that=20 keeping them manually is practically impossible. Why drudgery? There=20 are numerous jobs with which robots can do better. Human should focus=20 on what machines can't do better.=20 > I guess a lot unsolved bugs stem from the fact that there are too > few that can take care of them. And from all these bugs only 10% are critical 20% are affecting like=20 1% of all users and it's not clear what to fix first.=20 It's a self balancing system. How do you plan to attract more developers?= =20 What to offer them? --=20 Best regards, Igor mailto:lanthruster@gmail.com ------------03D0C822334F2D090 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [gentoo-dev] Portage QOS Hello Christop= her,

Thursday, January 9, 2014, 6:12:37 PM, you wrote:


> you motivate your = proposal by claiming the Gentoo Project stagnates which you
> relate with its decline in popularity:

>> According to Linux Counter
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20120101000000*/http://linux= counter.net/distribut
>> ions/stats.html

>> In January 2012, Gentoo distro had 5.32%
>> In January 2012, Gentoo had 4.04%
>> In November 2013, Gentoo had 4,21%

>> And from my experience of Gentoo forums, gentoo.wiki - I vote for = Gentoo at
>> least not gaining new users. If in several years the number of use= rs is not
>> increased - we can tell about stagnation.

> But let me ask this question: Is the number of users really that impor= tant to
> Gentoo? 

Should be. It looks i= mportant for Gentoo and the Gentoo developers.

For Gentoo - the more users Gentoo has the more resources it can deploy&nbs= p;
in development and support. May be the world domination isn't the correct&n= bsp;
word but a steady growth of Gentoo systems globally is a good goal. If Gent= oo 
looses 1% annually in 5 years there would be no new developers motivated en= ough 
to push the project ahead and the old ones would think bad about investing = their 
life in what is not gaining popularity and they will not be that enthusiast= ic, 
getting demoralized. Without fresh blood the crucial people will get old/ti= red and alas. 
I'm sure you don't need Gentoo only for yourself as nobody else here does. = It's a project 
for people, the people get it running and it's the treasure the Gentoo has = so why not 
to turn towards users? 

Try build a house, tell friends about the house, unite them in one goal and=  
then build it for free and for everybody, then if the house is not working = well 
- you have friends no more, next time you're alone in one huge house, =
nobody needs, nobody will help and you can't just support it on your own.&n= bsp;

> Since it does not = strive for world domination I think all that matters
> is to keep the current userbase happy.

True. That is the goa= l.
 
> From your thread I do not understand
> whats wrong on that side:

>> For various reasons many techs were not implemented and now Gentoo= is in a 
> kind of stagnation.

> What do you mean by that in particular? 

Gentoo stopped. The w= ork is done but it's not a game changer. The 
ebuilds have approximately the same time to install, the failure rate is ab= out the same, 
emerge is getting slower. The number of users decrease. 
It looks like this is because it's not clear where to go and what to change= . What to change 
exactly to bring more users? Not clear. No information.

Apparently the criteria is timing. When you develop a human access interfac= e the most 
reliable thing to check your work against is the time required for an avera= ge user to achieve the goal. 

Time is the most important in our lifes and this is the criteria that alway= s works. There 
are a variety of users, with different genetics, different views, education= and skills but you 
can find an interface that unites them all and everyone is feeling like it'= s easy. It's not an
easy task because what looks easy for a developer might look alien for his = neighbour. 

If we decrease time required for the users to maintain Gentoo and decrease = time for developers 
to push the project - then Gentoo will grow.

> And what is wrong = with 
> bugs.gentoo.org? Wouldn't it be better to talk about how attract more&= nbsp;
> developers?  

Good question. <= br> You can't attract enough supporters not being successful or
without paying them. Supporters are the same users if you're loosing
users the number of supporters are decreasing.

The times are changed. The projects are so complicated nowadays that <= br> keeping them manually is practically impossible. Why drudgery? There <= br> are numerous jobs with which robots can do better. Human should focus =
on what machines can't do better. 

> I guess a lot unso= lved bugs stem from the fact that there are too
> few that can take care of them.

And from all these bu= gs only 10% are critical 20% are affecting like 
1% of all users and it's not clear what to fix first. 

It's a self balancing system. How do you plan to attract more developers?&n= bsp;
What to offer them?

--=  
Best regards,
 Igor                   &= nbsp;        mailto:lanthruster@gmail.com ------------03D0C822334F2D090--