From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AC81381F3 for ; Sat, 4 May 2013 10:43:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 85C5AE0936; Sat, 4 May 2013 10:43:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87041E0932 for ; Sat, 4 May 2013 10:43:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.93] (dynamic-adsl-84-220-76-147.clienti.tiscali.it [84.220.76.147]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: lu_zero) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24BEC33DEFB for ; Sat, 4 May 2013 10:42:59 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5184E632.9000801@gentoo.org> Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 12:42:58 +0200 From: Luca Barbato User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130411 Thunderbird/17.0.5 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: cc745771-5b77-463b-9a7e-529f5f29c949 X-Archives-Hash: 1005277b7406b641a161f782fea28e43 On 05/01/2013 12:04 PM, Fabio Erculiani wrote: > PLEASE DO NOT START A FLAME WAR AND READ ON FIRST. > THIS IS NOT A POST AGAINST OPENRC. Amen > With the release of Sabayon 13.04 [1] and thanks to the efforts I put > into the systemd-love overlay [2], systemd has become much more > accessible and easy to migrate to/from openrc. Both are able to > happily coexist and logind/consolekit detection is now done at > runtime. > It is sad to say that the "territoriality" in base-system (and > toolchain) is not allowing any kind of progress [3] [4]. This is > nothing new, by the way. > > There are several components that need patching in order to work as > expected with systemd: > - polkit needs a patch that enables runtime detection of logind/consolekit > - pambase needs to drop USE=systemd and always enable the optional > module pam_systemd.so > - genkernel needs to migrate to *udev (or as I did, provide a --udev > genkernel option), mdev is unable to properly activate LVM volumes and > LVM is actually working by miracle with openrc. Alternatively, we > should migrate to dracut. [unrelated] Do you have more insights about this part? mdev MUST work, lots of thin recovery options are based on busybox. > - networkmanager need not to install/remove files depending on > USE=systemd but rather detect systemd at runtime, which is a 3 lines > script. Sounds sensible. > - openrc-settingsd needs to support eselect-settingsd, which makes > possible to switch the settingsd implementation at runtime, between > openrc and systemd. This also removes the silly conflict between > openrc-settingsd and systemd friends. Would make sense merge init and settingsd in a single eselect or at least make so switching init would warn if the settingsd doesn't match? > - genkernel should at least support plymouth (work in progress my side) Looking forward to it. > - other ~490 systemd units are missing at this time and writing them > could also be a great GSoC project (don't look at me, I'm busy > enough). Hopefully we might have a gsoc student volunteering to make a runscript/lsb-script/systemd-unit compiler and a small abstraction so we write a single init.d script and generate what's needed. Probably we might even support pure-runit that way with minimal effort. > It looks like there is some consensus on the effort of making systemd > more accessible, while there are problems with submitting bugs about > new systemd units of the sort that maintainers just_dont_answer(tm). > In this case, I am just giving 3 weeks grace period for maintainers to > answer and then I usually go ahead adding units (I'm in systemd@ after > all). See above. > The only remaining problem is about eselect-sysvinit, for this reason, > I am probably going to create a new separate pkg called > _sysvinit-next_, that contains all the fun stuff many developers were > not allowed to commit (besides my needs, there is also the need of > splitting sysvinit due to the issues reported in [4]). I am sure that > a masked alternative sysvinit ebuild won't hurt anybody and will make > Gentoo a bit more fun to use. Exactly, which is the problem at hand? I'd like to be able to safely switch back and forth sysvinit and bb-init as well. > The final outcome will hopefully be: > - easier to migrate from/to systemd, at runtime, with NO recompilation > at all (just enable USE=systemd and switch the device manager from > *udev to systemd -- unless somebody wants to drop the udev part from > systemd, if at all possible) > - we give the users the right to choose without driving them nuts with > weird emerge-fu. > - we make possible to support new init systems in future, and even > specific init wrappers (bootchart anyone?) Here! o/ Currently in my list are - bootchart2 (as an add-on to the other init systems) - bb-init (requires different custom inittab) - runit (openrc can use it instead thanks to benda xu past GSoC) > - we prepare the path towards a painless migration from consolekit > (deprecated for long time now) to logind (we probably need to fork it > off the systemd pkg -- upstream projects are _dropping_ consolekit > support right now!) Again it is something I consider an option for a GSoC project, we have already some openrc variant for other systemd-originated daemons in our git. > - we put back some fun into Gentoo That's always good. > If you want to see a working implementation of my systemd-love > efforts, just go download [1] and see things working yourself. Thank you a lot for your positive attitude and the huge effort =) lu