[gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Doug Goldstein]

I've got a few ROMs to add to the tree and some which are already in
the tree if people have a suggestion where they should live. Short
list:

ipxe
openbios
seabios
sgabios
vgabios

-- 
Doug Goldstein

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 07/22/2012 12:12 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:
> I've got a few ROMs to add to the tree and some which are already in
> the tree if people have a suggestion where they should live. Short
> list:
> 
> ipxe
> openbios
> seabios
> sgabios
> vgabios
> 
sys-bios?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Alexey Shvetsov]

May be sys-firmware? =)

Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina писал 2012-07-22 08:53:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 07/22/2012 12:12 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:
>> I've got a few ROMs to add to the tree and some which are already in
>> the tree if people have a suggestion where they should live. Short
>> list:
>>
>> ipxe
>> openbios
>> seabios
>> sgabios
>> vgabios
>>
> sys-bios?
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-- 
Best Regards,
Alexey 'Alexxy' Shvetsov
Petersburg Nuclear Physics Institute, NRC Kurchatov Institute, 
Gatchina, Russia
Department of Molecular and Radiation Biophysics
Gentoo Team Ru
Gentoo Linux Dev
mailto:alexxyum@gmail.com
mailto:alexxy@gentoo.org
mailto:alexxy@omrb.pnpi.spb.ru

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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Il 22/07/2012 01:33, Alexey Shvetsov ha scritto:
> May be sys-firmware? =)

If we make sys-firmware we might want to move the various Intel, Ralink
and AMD firmware blobs there as well.

-- 
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:

> Il 22/07/2012 01:33, Alexey Shvetsov ha scritto:
>> May be sys-firmware? =)

> If we make sys-firmware we might want to move the various Intel,
> Ralink and AMD firmware blobs there as well.

+1

These packages are currently scattered all over the tree: sys-apps,
sys-kernel, media-tv, net-wireless, and x11-drivers (maybe more).

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

Il 22/07/2012 06:28, Ulrich Mueller ha scritto:
> These packages are currently scattered all over the tree: sys-apps,
> sys-kernel, media-tv, net-wireless, and x11-drivers (maybe more).

And for those who wonder if it's worth it: it is, for people like me who
tries to run all over the tree, as then I know what to expect out of
sys-firmware failures...

-- 
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Maxim Kammerer]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> And for those who wonder if it's worth it: it is, for people like me who
> tries to run all over the tree, as then I know what to expect out of
> sys-firmware failures...

eix -cI 'microcode-|-ucode|-firmware'

-- 
Maxim Kammerer
Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

Il 22/07/2012 06:47, Maxim Kammerer ha scritto:
> eix -cI 'microcode-|-ucode|-firmware'

The problem is not finding them, is knowing what's going on when a given
package name is merged.

-- 
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Michał Górny]

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On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:47:27 +0300
Maxim Kammerer <mk@dee.su> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> > And for those who wonder if it's worth it: it is, for people like
> > me who tries to run all over the tree, as then I know what to
> > expect out of sys-firmware failures...
> 
> eix -cI 'microcode-|-ucode|-firmware'

Are we fedora or something?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Maxim Kammerer]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> The problem is not finding them, is knowing what's going on when a given
> package name is merged.

Well, what I meant is that all these packages have a "-ucode" or
"-firmware" suffix (not sure whether there is a difference), and there
is also microcode-data, which stands separately (as you probably
remember from bug #403119). I am not against a sys-firmware category,
just pointing out that there is not much information gained in the
package name, whereas some information will be lost (type of firmware
— wireless, graphics, etc.).

-- 
Maxim Kammerer
Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Peter Stuge]

Rick Zero_Chaos Farina wrote:
> sys-bios?

Whatever you (Gentoo developers) do, do not use bios for the
category -- well not for anything really.

BIOS is merely one specific type of (shitty beyond belief) firmware
on one specific type of (shitty beyond belief) hardware. (Well, I've
seen the odd non-PC-platform use the term too. TI DSPs come to mind.)

Don't make the mistake of assuming that BIOS is synonym to firmware
even if it may be the only firmware you've encountered so far.


Thank you

//Peter

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 07/22/2012 01:22 PM, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Rick Zero_Chaos Farina wrote:
>> sys-bios?
> 
> Whatever you (Gentoo developers) do, do not use bios for the
> category -- well not for anything really.
> 
> BIOS is merely one specific type of (shitty beyond belief) firmware
> on one specific type of (shitty beyond belief) hardware. (Well, I've
> seen the odd non-PC-platform use the term too. TI DSPs come to mind.)
> 
> Don't make the mistake of assuming that BIOS is synonym to firmware
> even if it may be the only firmware you've encountered so far.

A fair point, suggestion retracted.  I'm on board with sys-firmware as
well, but I do see some advantage of the current way of putting the
firmware in the category of what it is for...

- -Zero
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> //Peter
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

Il 22/07/2012 07:22, Maxim Kammerer ha scritto:
> just pointing out that there is not much information gained in the
> package name,

Trust me it usually helps more than a little bit to have a common
category for them.

-- 
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Kent Fredric]

On 22 July 2012 16:12, Doug Goldstein <cardoe@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I've got a few ROMs to add to the tree and some which are already in
> the tree if people have a suggestion where they should live. Short
> list:
>
> ipxe
> openbios
> seabios
> sgabios
> vgabios
>
> --
> Doug Goldstein
>

I just noticed that the sys-firmware category has been added to the
categories file, but no corresponding directory in portage exists yet.

I understand this is a temporary thing, and the only thing that
notices that there is this discrepancy is software I've written (
https://metacpan.org/source/KENTNL/Gentoo-Overlay-1.0.2/lib/Gentoo/Overlay.pm#L135
).

It doesn't warrant the shenanigans of a full bug report,  ( And I have
no idea how one would categories this sort of bug ), just I dislike
the inconsistency of there being a directory listed in the categories
file without also having that directory in existence.

( This bug is really all CVS's fault, the directory is created, but
its empty -> marked as dead )


In short, "Yay, thanks for sys-firmware, I look forward to it not
being an empty category"

Just I would have hoped that this category hadn't been created until
there was something ready to put in it =)

-- 
Kent

perl -e  "print substr( \"edrgmaM  SPA NOcomil.ic\\@tfrken\", \$_ * 3,
3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );"

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Kent Fredric]

On 23 July 2012 08:48, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina <zerochaos@gentoo.org> wrote:
> A fair point, suggestion retracted.  I'm on board with sys-firmware as
> well, but I do see some advantage of the current way of putting the
> firmware in the category of what it is for...

If you wanted, you could do something like x11-drivers/ do , and have
a standard of adding a little subcategorization:

 sys-firmware/video-ati

Or something of that sort. You'd be having to sacrifice downstream
package name not being identical to upstream though. But Lots of the
ones I  see listed could be generalised like that.

See, translate this into the new scheme:

media-sound/alsa-firmware
media-tv/cx18-firmware
media-tv/ivtv-firmware
media-tv/linuxtv-dvb-firmware
media-video/isight-firmware-tools
net-dialup/isdn-firmware
net-wireless/acx-firmware
net-wireless/ar9271-firmware
net-wireless/atmel-firmware
net-wireless/b43-firmware
net-wireless/bluez-firmware
net-wireless/ipw2100-firmware
net-wireless/ipw2200-firmware
net-wireless/libertas-firmware
net-wireless/linux-wlan-ng-firmware
net-wireless/prism54-firmware
net-wireless/rt2860-firmware
net-wireless/rt2870-firmware

sys-firmware/sound-alsa
sys-firmware/tv-cx18
sys-firmware/tv-ivtv
sys-firmware/tv-linuxtv-dvb
sys-firmware/video-isight-tools
sys-firmware/dialup-isdn
sys-firmware/wireless-acx
sys-firmware/wireless-ar927

... etc.

-- 
Kent

perl -e  "print substr( \"edrgmaM  SPA NOcomil.ic\\@tfrken\", \$_ * 3,
3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );"

http://kent-fredric.fox.geek.nz

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Thu, 26 Jul 2012, Kent Fredric wrote:

> In short, "Yay, thanks for sys-firmware, I look forward to it not
> being an empty category"

We could create a category metadata file. ;)

Is the following O.K.:
"The sys-firmware category contains various firmware and microcode."

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] ROMs category suggestion

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Kent Fredric schrieb:
> On 23 July 2012 08:48, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina <zerochaos@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> A fair point, suggestion retracted.  I'm on board with sys-firmware as
>> well, but I do see some advantage of the current way of putting the
>> firmware in the category of what it is for...
> 
> If you wanted, you could do something like x11-drivers/ do , and have
> a standard of adding a little subcategorization:

Could you be more specific? What does x11-drivers/ do that applies here?

>  sys-firmware/video-ati

If it is really desired to state the firmware purpose in
category/package, then I would prefer

firmware-gpu/radeon-ucode
firmware-video/cx18-firmware
firmware-audio/alsa-firmware
firmware-net/isdn-firmware

or similar. This would be better than deviating from upstream package name.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

[gentoo-dev] Re: ROMs category suggestion

[Duncan]

Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn posted on Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:58:30 +0200 as
excerpted:

> Kent Fredric schrieb:
>> On 23 July 2012 08:48, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina <zerochaos@gentoo.org>
>> wrote:
>>> I do see some advantage of the current way of putting the
>>> firmware in the category of what it is for...
>> 
>> If you wanted, you could do something like x11-drivers/ do , and have a
>> standard of adding a little subcategorization:
> 
> Could you be more specific? What does x11-drivers/ do that applies here?

x11-drivers/xf86-video-ati
x11-drivers/xf86-video-intel

x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev

From his example:

sys-firmware/video-ati

... he's obviously referring to the middle "sub-category",
-video- -input- etc.

But your point about putting that in the category instead, thus having 
firmware-video, firmware-tv, firmware-sound, etc, instead of putting them 
all in sys-firmware, DOES make sense.  For firmware-* categories that 
would otherwise just have a single package or two, there could be a 
firmware-misc, if category-proliferation is seen to be a big issue.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ROMs category suggestion

[Michał Górny]

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On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 06:03:53 +0000 (UTC)
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn posted on Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:58:30
> +0200 as excerpted:
> 
> > Kent Fredric schrieb:
> >> On 23 July 2012 08:48, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina
> >> <zerochaos@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >>> I do see some advantage of the current way of putting the
> >>> firmware in the category of what it is for...
> >> 
> >> If you wanted, you could do something like x11-drivers/ do , and
> >> have a standard of adding a little subcategorization:
> > 
> > Could you be more specific? What does x11-drivers/ do that applies
> > here?
> 
> x11-drivers/xf86-video-ati
> x11-drivers/xf86-video-intel
> 
> x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev

But you are aware that this is *upstream* naming?

Similarly, ati-drivers (which is not upstream naming :P)
and nvidia-drivers don't follow the suite.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ROMs category suggestion

[Kent Fredric]

On 26 July 2012 19:32, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> But you are aware that this is *upstream* naming?
>
> Similarly, ati-drivers (which is not upstream naming :P)
> and nvidia-drivers don't follow the suite.

I wasn't aware of that, but thats beside the point I was trying to
make. Its just a mechanism that allows an appoximation of a 3-tier
system without needing a 3-teir system.

ie:  sys-firmware/video/ati   approximated as sys-firmware/video-ati ,
which seems slighly better than the competing ways of doing it like:

firmware-video/ati-firmware
firmware-video/ati

and any category name with "Firmware" in it, will result in lots of
redundant names exposed to users/deps if the package /also/  has
firmware in the name.

There's also the other thing to consider, and thats there's a lot of
hardware related stuff that is similar to firmware in a way, but also
totally devoid of a central category for it. Namely, kernel level
drivers. ( Which are not /that/ far removed from firmware, considering
that you can compile firmware into kernels and they're of similar
levels of necessity ).

We may as well suggest sys-hardware/    and put things like tp_smapi
and prism54-firmware all in that one category.

In essence, the rationale behind having a sys-firmware category for
all firmware, but no sys-drivers category for all device
drivers/modules seems an oversight.


But I think however you do it, the absence of a 3-tier system hamstrings you.

net-wireless/prism54-firmware   ->
    Alternatives:
      sys-firmware/prism54-firmware
      sys-firmware/prism54
      sys-firmware/wireless-prism54-firmware
      sys-firmware/wireless-prism54
      firmware-wireless/prism54-firmware
      firmware-wireless/prism54
      sys-hardware/prism54-firmware
      sys-hardware/wireless-prism54-firmware
      hardware-wireless/prism54-firmware


net-dialup/hsfmodem ->
   Alternatives:
      sys-driver/hsfmodem
      sys-driver/dialup-hsfmodem
      sys-hardware/hsfmodem
      sys-hardware/dialup-hsfmodem
      hardware-dialup/hfsmodem


The perk of *not* having 'firmware' in the category name means you can
put drivers in the category as-is, and add firmware to the category
as-is, without needing to have redundant information. In a
sys-hardware/* hardware-$class/*  layout, things without "-firmware"
are assumed kernel drivers , and things with -firmware are known as
firmware.


-- 
Kent

perl -e  "print substr( \"edrgmaM  SPA NOcomil.ic\\@tfrken\", \$_ * 3,
3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );"

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ROMs category suggestion

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Kent Fredric schrieb:
> firmware-video/ati-firmware
> firmware-video/ati
>
> and any category name with "Firmware" in it, will result in lots of
> redundant names exposed to users/deps if the package /also/  has
> firmware in the name.

Indeed, but this redundancy already exists in tree, e.g. dev-libs/lib*
or sys-libs/lib*.
I would deviate from upstream name only when there is a good reason to.

> There's also the other thing to consider, and thats there's a lot of
> hardware related stuff that is similar to firmware in a way, but also
> totally devoid of a central category for it. Namely, kernel level
> drivers. ( Which are not /that/ far removed from firmware, considering
> that you can compile firmware into kernels and they're of similar
> levels of necessity ).

The only other thing I would group together with firmware is the Atheros
HAL from the madwifi driver.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn