[gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Jeroen Roovers]

Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
that every developer should be able to read.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Alec Warner]

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
> that every developer should be able to read.

I think forcing LC_ALL=C is crazy.

-A

>
>
>     jer
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Saturday 03 December 2011 22:50:00 Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
> that every developer should be able to read.

non C locales triggers real bugs i think we should be fixing

and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or any 
other locale category ...
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:21:42 -0500
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL
> or any other locale category ...

Fine.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Alec Warner]

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:21:42 -0500
> Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL
>> or any other locale category ...
>
> Fine.

Can we  just translate the error messages?

-A

>
>
>     jer
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:14:16 -0800
Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Can we  just translate the error messages?

*I* sure can but it takes time and effort, and for ever developer who
looks at this, the process is repeated unless bug wranglers or other
handy users happen to provide the translation.

Just think of looking into a large build log, checking that the
"error:" should now be "Fehler:" or something in an altogether
different script you can't even read, and then searching backwards
through the log to find the first occurrence. Do the same for "No such
file or directory", "undefined reference" and so on - the things that
most commonly get translated.

Or do you mean automate translation whenever something is attached to a
bug report? I think we'd be doing things the wrong way round then, but
feel free to donate the machine translation server farm to do it. Also,
make sure the result uses the same (original) strings and that you don't
get funny "google translate" surprises.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Can we  just translate the error messages?
>

That seems pretty impractical to me.  Google Translate is about your
only option here, and somehow I doubt it is up to parsing build logs.
Hand translation could work if we increases the understaffed bug
wrangling team to the size of the UN...  :)

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Rich Freeman schrieb:
>> Can we  just translate the error messages?
> That seems pretty impractical to me.  Google Translate is about your
> only option here,

Actually the translation already exists in /usr/share/locale/ and just
needs to be looked up, so it appears not entirely impractical. Still,
probably not worth the effort.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 05 December 2011 17:12:44 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Rich Freeman schrieb:
> >> Can we  just translate the error messages?
> > 
> > That seems pretty impractical to me.  Google Translate is about your
> > only option here,
> 
> Actually the translation already exists in /usr/share/locale/ and just
> needs to be looked up, so it appears not entirely impractical. Still,
> probably not worth the effort.

assuming you have the same version of the package issuing the error message 
installed locally, and you haven't restricted your LINGUAS in anyway (so you 
have them all installed), then yes ;)
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Mike Frysinger schrieb:
> and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or any 
> other locale category ...

I too think it is sufficient to have
LC_MESSAGES=C
in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
reporting bugs.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Rich Freeman]

2011/12/4 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <chithanh@gentoo.org>:
> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

++

Or if that goes too far have it commented out but still in the file -
so that users can just remove one character to implement it.  This
would need to be accompanied by instructions in Bugzilla so that the
wranglers don't need to post them over and over again.

Users should be able to work in their native languages on their own
PCs (Gentoo is about choice) - the key is just to try to prevent these
kinds of issues in the first place.  We already have notes about
attaching build.log - all we need to do is include the words "with
LC_MESSAGES=C to ensure logs are in English" in the note.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 12/4/11 12:58 PM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Mike Frysinger schrieb:
>> and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or any 
>> other locale category ...
> 
> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

Sounds like a good idea - it's a good default,  allows the user to
change it, and to easily use a different locale for non-portage
interactions.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Ryan Hill]

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On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:58:06 +0100
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <chithanh@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

Now that I wouldn't mind.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Zac Medico]

On 12/04/2011 03:58 AM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Mike Frysinger schrieb:
>> and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or any 
>> other locale category ...
> 
> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

If we want it to go in the default make.conf, it would go in catalyst,
since that's what generates the default make.conf for stage builds.

We can get an equivalent result by putting it in make.defaults of the
base profile, and adding a note to the handbook and/or localization guide.
-- 
Thanks,
Zac

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 04 December 2011 06:58:06 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Mike Frysinger schrieb:
> > and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or
> > any other locale category ...
> 
> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

this would allow a small # of bugs to creep into our system (some packages run 
programs and then grep the output for english strings and miss setting 
LC_{MESSAGES,ALL} to C first), but that might easily be smaller than the burden 
placed on bug-wranglers ...

i'm indifferent to setting LC_MESSAGES=C in the default make.conf (i.e. via 
catalyst).  i don't think it should be in the profile's make.defaults.
-mike

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[gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Ryan Hill]

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On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
> that every developer should be able to read.

How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since the last
time you brought this up?  How many times have you had to request emerge
--info or build logs in general?

I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need to be in
english would be a better solution than forcing it on everyone.

-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:51:17 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since
> the last time you brought this up?  How many times have you had to
> request emerge --info or build logs in general?

Many dozens of times, and a magnitude more dozens of times,
respectively, which also indicates quite clearly that this:

> I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need
> to be in english would be a better solution

isn't going to work, and that this:

> than forcing it on everyone.

is what we're effectively already doing, only that we require human
intervention and a lot of time and effort to establish that.


     jer

[gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Ryan Hill]

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On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 07:51:09 +0100
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:51:17 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since
> > the last time you brought this up?  How many times have you had to
> > request emerge --info or build logs in general?
> 
> Many dozens of times, and a magnitude more dozens of times,

So a comparatively small number then.

> respectively, which also indicates quite clearly that this:
> 
> > I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need
> > to be in english would be a better solution
> 
> isn't going to work, and that this:

It sure wouldn't hurt (and has the advantage of not being insane).

> > than forcing it on everyone.
> 
> is what we're effectively already doing, only that we require human
> intervention and a lot of time and effort to establish that.

You still seem to believe that the only thing people do with error messages
is paste them into bugzilla for you to look at.  You realize that you
aren't required to know English to use Gentoo, right?


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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[gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_MESSAGES=C again?

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 02:14:15 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> > Many dozens of times, and a magnitude more dozens of times,
> 
> So a comparatively small number then.

You seem to argue that the time I spend on getting bug reports
right isn't essential or beneficial to your bugzilla work. Let's
actually act on that.

The alternative action I am now putting in place is to just allow the
foreign language build logs. One side effect is that the Summary, which
I tend to make more specific to the reported bug (replacing "refuses to
build", "failes[sic] on[sic] compile" and so on) by appending the
actual error, will now start seeing a multitude of untranslated output
messages. This makes bugs harder to find by searching, but by then
they're assigned anyway, so that's not my problem any longer.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Alexandre Rostovtsev]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 1:51 AM, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
>> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
>> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
>> that every developer should be able to read.
>
> How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since the last
> time you brought this up?  How many times have you had to request emerge
> --info or build logs in general?

I suspect that being able to read logs is much more important for
general bug wranglers like Jeroen than for the developers who only
deal with bugs for a small set of packages. Although I find
non-English logs annoying, they are usually good enough for me to find
the problem when dealing with bugs in a package with which I am
already familiar. However, I would likely be lost if I needed to help
a user who had posted a log in a language that I did not understand
for a package that I knew little about.

-Alexandre.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[James Broadhead]

On 4 December 2011 06:51, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
>> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
>> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
>> that every developer should be able to read.
>
> How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since the last
> time you brought this up?  How many times have you had to request emerge
> --info or build logs in general?

Surely this can be automated?

"Error - Bug not filed!
No emerge --info attachment detected. Either tag one of your
attachments as `emerge --info`, or upload one"

> I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need to be in
> english would be a better solution than forcing it on everyone.

Again, automation should be moderately easy to achieve. Having bugzie
grep for "Error" / "Warning" in the top ten non-English languages
should be enough. On a positive, reject the output with a popup
explaining how to get an English version.


Am I wrong, or is LC_MESSAGES=C a non-UTF-8 locale? Why is this
considered a good idea? Why not en-UTF-8?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Michał Górny]

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On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 14:09:03 +0000
James Broadhead <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4 December 2011 06:51, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
> > Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> >> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for
> >> both bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane
> >> alternative that every developer should be able to read.
> >
> > How many times have you needed to request build logs in english
> > since the last time you brought this up?  How many times have you
> > had to request emerge --info or build logs in general?
> 
> Surely this can be automated?
> 
> "Error - Bug not filed!
> No emerge --info attachment detected. Either tag one of your
> attachments as `emerge --info`, or upload one"

It can't. Not all bugs are build failures. Not in all cases 'emerge
--info' is relevant at all.

> > I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs
> > need to be in english would be a better solution than forcing it on
> > everyone.
> 
> Am I wrong, or is LC_MESSAGES=C a non-UTF-8 locale? Why is this
> considered a good idea? Why not en-UTF-8?

Because not all systems are required to be built with utf8 locale.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Michał Górny]

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On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane
> alternative that every developer should be able to read.

Will break random packages with stable Python 3.1, and current testing
Python 3.x versions.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[James Cloos]

As someone who leaves root w/o LANG, I would note that there are a few
packages which cannot build unless LANG is set to a UTF-8 locale.

What we really need is C.UTF-8 and/or POSIX.UTF-8, and to force *that* 
in emerge(1), ebuild(1), etc.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [gentoo-dev] So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday 04 December 2011 12:37:15 James Cloos wrote:
> As someone who leaves root w/o LANG, I would note that there are a few
> packages which cannot build unless LANG is set to a UTF-8 locale.

file a bug then

> What we really need is C.UTF-8 and/or POSIX.UTF-8, and to force *that*
> in emerge(1), ebuild(1), etc.

no.  it'll break systems that don't have UTF8 support.
-mike

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