From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1OQ2c4-0002mO-9G for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:17:57 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2DBD7E0AD2; Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:17:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-gy0-f181.google.com (mail-gy0-f181.google.com [209.85.160.181]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA5BE0AC7 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:17:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1so1670048gya.40 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:17:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bh4XOIyeLaD7uRE9CaZZfNrw2b+FWY0tp+bOFuBC0Kg=; b=hOmE3bDGoA3PP+eJa5iaqBJzYHoZ2ImtYYEfkbq0czn6MtkfOFXVYDE/4rqbYrCxkJ GuBrL6iH641dm9OY9PHCukryIcYbRLBeDSU6gWbBpDeJaRTZlA5TYmR2gDGzLuGJ4C3t apuxU0ClbkzexjF0dIFQAtg1Bc34cq7rCP4G0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VhaAjoZEzZiFiCi7mEUXWHH5Bi5jw8Xjz8GyZYRD1KB6Wb27XkPglnb2jWZI03yq3w y+zr4kzyHiFiKyW7qSdXpdqFV3ZEx7/xRUj5TWNniIeBXILxrx+Ke2z/iZQwsnyvXZl7 MtPcWNX7F6NtPubII4gONAMUzceQ6N2aYFIMA= Received: by 10.151.18.17 with SMTP id v17mr2519939ybi.6.1276971452350; Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (adsl-95-107-53.jan.bellsouth.net [98.95.107.53]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u8sm15392234ybe.30.2010.06.19.11.17.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C1D09BA.3050409@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:17:30 -0500 From: Dale User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100616 Gentoo/2.0.4-r2 SeaMonkey/2.0.4 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo References: <4C184607.5080907@gentoo.org> <4C1C2A90.1020603@gentoo.org> <4C1C6725.4090109@gentoo.org> <4C1C6D80.3000308@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: fe39ceb5-5d9b-48d5-8397-af0d75fe81c6 X-Archives-Hash: f7b0fb093375f6327ad00f41d2cfaa54 Ben de Groot wrote: > On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Pawe=C5=82 Hajdan, Jr." = wrote: > =20 >> On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: >> =20 >>> As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a >>> pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing >>> list if you want to see how much :) >>> =20 >> I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a succes= s? >> I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing >> friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. >> >> Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to >> encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent peopl= e >> more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from >> leaving. >> >> Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the >> only thing you care about). >> =20 > This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top > reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not > getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the > level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other > poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to > keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of > repeat offenders? > > Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? > > Cheers, > Ben > > =20 I would like to say this to the list and then I have no plans to say=20 anything else. This is NOT directed at Ben either, just picked this to=20 reply to. I would love to learn how to do some programing and help=20 Gentoo. I been using Gentoo since the 1.4 days. I'm not a genius and I=20 don't even claim to know a lot much less everything. Thing is, I was=20 here several years ago when even this mailing list was basically out of=20 control. Are things better, you dang right they are. They are hugely=20 better. Are they where they should be, nope. A lot of progress has=20 been made but it still is not like it should be. If I owned Gentoo and=20 it was my pride and joy, I wouldn't tolerate some of the things that are=20 said. Since most people here have jobs, would your boss knowingly allow=20 some of the things said here or on private lists to continue, or would=20 someone be looking for a job? I don't want a answer, just some to think=20 about the question a bit. I understand that people here are volunteers=20 too. No need to point that out. Thing is, it doesn't matter if you=20 volunteer or not. I volunteer for a lot of things locally but I won't=20 volunteer for Gentoo. I just happen to like the OS. I wouldn't=20 continue to volunteer for the local things if I had to deal with some=20 things that happen on the lists either. Again, it has improved a lot or=20 I wouldn't be subscribed at all. My hats off to the ones that got it=20 this far. To Sebastian, the mailing list has improved a lot and there are still=20 occasions where things happen that shouldn't. The changes you want are=20 going to be difficult if not impossible. Make the decision that I made,=20 either let things get better over time then join in or if you feel like=20 it, try to help change them slowly. If you expect this to change=20 anytime soon, you will only disappoint yourself. I fear it will=20 eventually lead to a lawsuit from somebody then things will change. =20 Eventually, someone will go to far and then Gentoo will be at least=20 partially on the hook for it and be forced to change. I'm not saying=20 Gentoo would or should lose but the costs of the defense will force a=20 change. Most small organizations like Gentoo can't afford but one bite=20 out of that apple. As some have said in the past, the mailing list and=20 such do belong to Gentoo. Therefore, Gentoo would be accountable for=20 its part of what happens on them. The lawyers will argue that Gentoo=20 allowed it to continue and therefore permitted it to happen. Again, may=20 not work but Gentoo would still have to foot the bill to defend itself. My $0.02 worth for the day and that ain't much. Dale :-) :-)