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Message-ID: <4C1D09BA.3050409@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:17:30 -0500
From: Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
References: <4C184607.5080907@gentoo.org>	<4C1C2A90.1020603@gentoo.org>	<4C1C6725.4090109@gentoo.org>	<4C1C6D80.3000308@gentoo.org> <AANLkTikk8WcVSYIATcEgR1M2Y07_mvzPpfE7I6OYmtop@mail.gmail.com>
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Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Pawe=C5=82 Hajdan, Jr."<phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> =
 wrote:
>   =20
>> On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote:
>>     =20
>>> As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a
>>> pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing
>>> list if you want to see how much :)
>>>       =20
>> I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a succes=
s?
>> I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing
>> friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community.
>>
>> Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to
>> encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent peopl=
e
>> more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from
>> leaving.
>>
>> Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the
>> only thing you care about).
>>     =20
> This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top
> reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not
> getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the
> level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other
> poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to
> keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of
> repeat offenders?
>
> Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo?
>
> Cheers,
> Ben
>
>   =20

I would like to say this to the list and then I have no plans to say=20
anything else.  This is NOT directed at Ben either, just picked this to=20
reply to.  I would love to learn how to do some programing and help=20
Gentoo.  I been using Gentoo since the 1.4 days.  I'm not a genius and I=20
don't even claim to know a lot much less everything.  Thing is, I was=20
here several years ago when even this mailing list was basically out of=20
control.  Are things better, you dang right they are.  They are hugely=20
better.  Are they where they should be, nope.  A lot of progress has=20
been made but it still is not like it should be.  If I owned Gentoo and=20
it was my pride and joy, I wouldn't tolerate some of the things that are=20
said.  Since most people here have jobs, would your boss knowingly allow=20
some of the things said here or on private lists to continue, or would=20
someone be looking for a job?  I don't want a answer, just some to think=20
about the question a bit.  I understand that people here are volunteers=20
too.  No need to point that out.  Thing is, it doesn't matter if you=20
volunteer or not.  I volunteer for a lot of things locally but I won't=20
volunteer for Gentoo.  I just happen to like the OS.  I wouldn't=20
continue to volunteer for the local things if I had to deal with some=20
things that happen on the lists either.  Again, it has improved a lot or=20
I wouldn't be subscribed at all.  My hats off to the ones that got it=20
this far.

To Sebastian, the mailing list has improved a lot and there are still=20
occasions where things happen that shouldn't.  The changes you want are=20
going to be difficult if not impossible.  Make the decision that I made,=20
either let things get better over time then join in or if you feel like=20
it, try to help change them slowly.  If you expect this to change=20
anytime soon, you will only disappoint yourself.  I fear it will=20
eventually lead to a lawsuit from somebody then things will change. =20
Eventually, someone will go to far and then Gentoo will be at least=20
partially on the hook for it and be forced to change.  I'm not saying=20
Gentoo would or should lose but the costs of the defense will force a=20
change.  Most small organizations like Gentoo can't afford but one bite=20
out of that apple.  As some have said in the past, the mailing list and=20
such do belong to Gentoo.  Therefore, Gentoo would be accountable for=20
its part of what happens on them.  The lawyers will argue that Gentoo=20
allowed it to continue and therefore permitted it to happen.  Again, may=20
not work but Gentoo would still have to foot the bill to defend itself.

My $0.02 worth for the day and that ain't much.

Dale

:-)  :-)