[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
feedback on this new project is welcome.

We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
help to make this a success, to join us. At this point we are
especially looking for people who can help with:
- the initial setup and configuration of a MediaWiki instance
- the design of a custom Gentoo theme for MediaWiki (including graphics and CSS)
- the internal organization of the wiki
- moderation

1: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Nathan Zachary]

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On 05/04/10 13:12, Ben de Groot wrote:
> After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> feedback on this new project is welcome.
>
> We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
> help to make this a success, to join us. At this point we are
> especially looking for people who can help with:
> - the initial setup and configuration of a MediaWiki instance
> - the design of a custom Gentoo theme for MediaWiki (including graphics and CSS)
> - the internal organization of the wiki
> - moderation
>
> 1: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/
>
> Cheers,
>   
As I posted on the fora, I would be willing to work on the initial
installation of MediaWiki, organisation, and moderation.  Let me know
what needs to be done and I will start.

Thanks Ben.
--Zach

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Alex Legler]

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On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> feedback on this new project is welcome.
> 
> We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
> help to make this a success, to join us. At this point we are
> especially looking for people who can help with:
> - the initial setup and configuration of a MediaWiki instance

idl0r and I are offering to arrange things with infra.

As they are busy at the moment, I created a test wiki for us to test
extensions and styling:

http://gentoowiki.a3li.li/index.php?title=Main_Page

I have installed a captcha extension, as well as the flagged revision
extension. Contact me off-list for "editor" privileges for that.

> - the design of a custom Gentoo theme for MediaWiki (including
> graphics and CSS)

In that aforementioned wiki, there is a hacked together purplified
version of MediaWiki's new Vector theme. Maybe that's
already enough. If not maybe someone wants to use it as a starting point
(contact me off-list for details) 

Alex

-- 
Alex Legler | Gentoo Security / Ruby
a3li@gentoo.org | a3li@jabber.ccc.de

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Markos Chandras]

On Monday 05 April 2010 21:12:49 Ben de Groot wrote:
> After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> feedback on this new project is welcome.
> 
Thank you for all your hard effort
> We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
>[..]
> - moderation
I am willing to join the moderation userspace
> 
> 1: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/
> 
> Cheers,

-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

RE: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Sylvain Alain]

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> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:37:31 +0200
> From: zeerak.w@gmail.com
> To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
> 
> On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 10:15:21PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > On Monday 05 April 2010 21:12:49 Ben de Groot wrote:
> > > After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> > > have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> > > users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> > > feedback on this new project is welcome.
> > > 
> > Thank you for all your hard effort
> 
> +1 It's great to see that this project is starting :-)
> 
> > > We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
> > >[..]
> > > - moderation
> > I am willing to join the moderation userspace
> > > 
> > > 1: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > 
> > -- 
> > Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
> > Gentoo Linux Developer
> > Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
> > 
> 
> If someone could give me a description of what "internal organization of the wiki" intails I might be willing to help out with it (being that it's something I actually know about ;) ) otherwise I'd be more than willing to help out with moderation.
> 
> -- 
> Zeerak Waseem

I'd like to help with the moderation too

Sylvain 
aka d2_racing@gentoo.org
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724465

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Zeerak Mustafa Waseem]

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On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 10:15:21PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On Monday 05 April 2010 21:12:49 Ben de Groot wrote:
> > After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> > have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> > users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> > feedback on this new project is welcome.
> > 
> Thank you for all your hard effort

+1 It's great to see that this project is starting :-)

> > We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
> >[..]
> > - moderation
> I am willing to join the moderation userspace
> > 
> > 1: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/
> > 
> > Cheers,
> 
> -- 
> Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
> Gentoo Linux Developer
> Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
> 

If someone could give me a description of what "internal organization of the wiki" intails I might be willing to help out with it (being that it's something I actually know about ;) ) otherwise I'd be more than willing to help out with moderation.

-- 
Zeerak Waseem

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ravi Pinjala]

On 04/05/10 13:12, Ben de Groot wrote:
> After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> feedback on this new project is welcome.
>
> We'd also like to invite any users and developers, who are willing to
> help to make this a success, to join us. At this point we are
> especially looking for people who can help with:
> - the initial setup and configuration of a MediaWiki instance
> - the design of a custom Gentoo theme for MediaWiki (including graphics and CSS)
> - the internal organization of the wiki
> - moderation
>
> 1: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/
>
> Cheers,

It'd be good if the project page said something about how this relates 
to the existing Gentoo wiki. It's obvious that they serve different 
purposes, but the page right now makes no mention of what the 
distinction is.

--Ravi

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Stuart Longland]

On 2010-04-06 04:12, Ben de Groot wrote:
> After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> feedback on this new project is welcome.

This is a good move indeed.  There's a lot of stuff I'd like to be able
to throw online for users' benefit that really doesn't belong in places
like the handbook, but could be useful on the wiki.

How are you off for moderators?  I don't have a lot of time to sit
around waiting for stuff to compile these days (which is why I've been
very inactive on the MIPS and Mozilla fronts) but I could look help out
with the moderation.

Regards,
-- 
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)      .'''.
Gentoo Linux/MIPS Cobalt and Docs Developer  '.'` :
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   .'.'
http://dev.gentoo.org/~redhatter             :.'

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

On 6 April 2010 07:16, Stuart Longland <redhatter@gentoo.org> wrote:
> How are you off for moderators?  I don't have a lot of time to sit
> around waiting for stuff to compile these days (which is why I've been
> very inactive on the MIPS and Mozilla fronts) but I could look help out
> with the moderation.

It looks like we're getting together a nice team, but we sure could
use a little more help! At this point, we're still debating and
testing, so there isn't anything to moderate yet. But soon we will
have.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Zeerak Mustafa Waseem]

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On Tue, Apr 06, 2010 at 03:00:10PM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 6 April 2010 07:16, Stuart Longland <redhatter@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > How are you off for moderators?  I don't have a lot of time to sit
> > around waiting for stuff to compile these days (which is why I've been
> > very inactive on the MIPS and Mozilla fronts) but I could look help out
> > with the moderation.
> 
> It looks like we're getting together a nice team, but we sure could
> use a little more help! At this point, we're still debating and
> testing, so there isn't anything to moderate yet. But soon we will
> have.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Ben de Groot
> Gentoo Qt project lead developer
> Gentoo Wiki project lead
> 

I have some experience with testing, so if you need a hand just drop a line :-)

-- 
Zeerak Waseem

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ryan Hill]

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On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200
Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:

> After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> feedback on this new project is welcome.

why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?  it
seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying don't do it, i'm
just baffled why we would.

> - moderation

can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?  i'd like to
document some of our policies/best practices that don't seem to be in
writing anywhere (after vetting them on the list of course).


-- 
fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?

Because some devs request things like this:

> can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?

In our wiki we will be able to.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ryan Hill]

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On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200
Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?
> 
> Because some devs request things like this:
> 
> > can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?
> 
> In our wiki we will be able to.

you misunderstood me.  i've wanted a dev wiki for years.  i just don't see why
it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists.


-- 
fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Sylvain Alain]

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The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc.

A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.

I don't see your point.





> To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> From: dirtyepic@gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:56:04 -0600
> 
> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200
> Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?
> > 
> > Because some devs request things like this:
> > 
> > > can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?
> > 
> > In our wiki we will be able to.
> 
> you misunderstood me.  i've wanted a dev wiki for years.  i just don't see why
> it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists.
> 
> 
> -- 
> fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
> gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
> wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724465

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ryan Hill]

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On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +0000
Sylvain Alain <d2_racing@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc.
> 
> A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
> 
> I don't see your point.

They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.


-- 
fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Sylvain Alain]

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Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki must be for the community and by the community :P

There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs.

d2_racing


> To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> From: dirtyepic@gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600
> 
> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +0000
> Sylvain Alain <d2_racing@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc.
> > 
> > A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
> > 
> > I don't see your point.
> 
> They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
> two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
> base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
> wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
> case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.
> 
> 
> -- 
> fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
> gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
> wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Patrick Nagel]

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Hi,

On 2010-04-08 19:51 UTC Ryan Hill wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200
> 
> Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
> > have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
> > users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
> > feedback on this new project is welcome.
> 
> why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists? 
> it seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying don't do
> it, i'm just baffled why we would.

Well, one reason could be, that the "unofficial" one lost its whole database 
once, and there were other multiple multi-day outages in the past. I expect an 
official Wiki to have a reasonable availability and not losing most of the 
content, breaking links all over the net for months.

Patrick.

-- 
Key ID: 0x86E346D4            http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc
Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Duncan]

Patrick Nagel posted on Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:42:40 +0800 as excerpted:

> On 2010-04-08 19:51 UTC Ryan Hill wrote:
>> 
>> why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already
>> exists? it seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying
>> don't do it, i'm just baffled why we would.
> 
> Well, one reason could be, that the "unofficial" one lost its whole
> database once, and there were other multiple multi-day outages in the
> past. I expect an official Wiki to have a reasonable availability and
> not losing most of the content, breaking links all over the net for
> months.

In addition to that, various invitations have been and I expect will 
continue to be made, to the guy running the current wiki.  For whatever 
reason(s), he doesn't seem particularly interested in running an official 
Gentoo wiki.

In some ways I can't say I blame him.  There's a lot of politics that goes 
into anything Gentoo-official, and it's perfectly sane for someone to love 
Gentoo but have no interest whatsoever in jumping thru all those political 
hoops he'd ultimately have to jump thru, or being the political pawn the 
wiki could likely be if it's as popular and useful as people hope.

Likewise, Gentoo's uncomfortable officially linking to something they 
don't control in any way, shape, or form (except to the extent that we 
could arguably pull his domain name for trademark reasons, if things got 
ugly enough, tho that'd be incredibly bad for EVERYONE, so nobody wants to 
go there!).

Regardless of how justified or not those reasons are, they exist, and are 
a practical barrier to the current wiki and owner becoming the official 
one.  Yet the feeling is, and I as a Gentoo power user agree, we need a 
wiki that we can officially point to, a place for documentation that 
hasn't made it thru the formal Gentoo-doc and GuideXML process, and may in 
fact never rise to that level, but is still valuable.

Also, there's the licensing issue.  The current wiki has a non-commercial 
clause for its content licensing that doesn't seem appropriate for an 
official Gentoo wiki.  And no one except the individual content 
contributors can change that, so practically speaking, a new wiki without 
that clause is needed.  Individual contributors can copy their own content 
over, of course, and other content can be rewritten, but the content 
cannot be wholesale transferred, nor will it be.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Guy Fontaine]

There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.

I have a French wiki to maintain, Gentoo-Québec's one, and I also have to help people by answering their questions on Gentoo-Québec forum. I think my real place is there.

Regards,

Guy Fontaine (aramis_qc)

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:38:53 +0000
Sylvain Alain <d2_racing@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki must be for the community and by the community :P
> 
> There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs.
> 
> d2_racing
> 
> 
> > To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> > From: dirtyepic@gentoo.org
> > Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
> > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600
> > 
> > On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +0000
> > Sylvain Alain <d2_racing@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc.
> > > 
> > > A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
> > > 
> > > I don't see your point.
> > 
> > They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
> > two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
> > base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
> > wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
> > case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > fonts,                                            by design, by neglect
> > gcc-porting,                              for a fact or just for effect
> > wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
>  		 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> Live connected. Get Hotmail & Messenger on your phone.
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462

-- 
Guy Fontaine <guy.fontaine@videotron.qc.ca>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Maciej Mrozowski]

On Friday 09 of April 2010 13:26:16 Guy Fontaine wrote:
> There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my
> knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a
> Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
> 
> My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for
> debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel
> like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected
> people.
> 
> I have a French wiki to maintain, Gentoo-Québec's one, and I also have to
> help people by answering their questions on Gentoo-Québec forum. I think
> my real place is there.

See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official 
Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all 
its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing 
unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins.

And of course it's always Gentoo devs who are to blame for "creating 
duplicated effort" instead of normalizing current situation.

Btw, you should only care for opinion of Gentoo Wiki project members, which 
are listed there - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/

cheers

-- 
regards
MM

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaine <guy.fontaine@videotron.qc.ca> wrote:
> There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
>
> My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.

Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
the project.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

On 9 April 2010 14:35, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com> wrote:
> See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official
> Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all
> its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing
> unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins.

You are quite wrong here, as Guy was one of the first to volunteer for
the official wiki project. It is the bickering about its status that
apparently has demotivated him.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 9 April 2010 14:35, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com> wrote:
>> See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official
>> Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all
>> its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing
>> unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins.
>
> You are quite wrong here, as Guy was one of the first to volunteer for
> the official wiki project. It is the bickering about its status that
> apparently has demotivated him.
>

I think at this point you've got the opinions of everyone, and pretty
much everyone's needs have been stated. Any more discussion will only
distract you and use up time and energy. I say ignore all further
discussion on this thread unless you feel it's *really* important.
Everything else not from the team is just bikeshedding I think :)

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[George Prowse]

On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaine<guy.fontaine@videotron.qc.ca>  wrote:
>> There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
>>
>> My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.
>
> Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
> even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
> constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
> the project.
>
> Cheers,

I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have 
said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review 
documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great 
place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.

The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial 
wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going 
to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going 
to want "how to set up FreeDOOM" on it.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Zeerak Mustafa Waseem]

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:
> > On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaine<guy.fontaine@videotron.qc.ca>  wrote:
> >> There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
> >>
> >> My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.
> >
> > Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
> > even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
> > constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
> > the project.
> >
> > Cheers,
> 
> I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have 
> said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review 
> documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great 
> place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.
> 
> The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial 
> wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going 
> to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going 
> to want "how to set up FreeDOOM" on it.
> 

Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own "section", so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset.
It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say "If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki".

I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-)

-- 
Zeerak Waseem

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[AllenJB]

On 09/04/10 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote:
> Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own "section", so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset.
> It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say "If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki".
> 
> I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-)
> 
It has no purpose. The "official" wiki currently has no rules and no
mission statement. There's been no activity for 3 days.

...in which time the unofficial wiki got countless edits in many
languages. And my server downloaded backups 3 times (because we have a
public backup policy in place to ensure the content is never lost again
- something some people seem to like ignoring (or are just ignorant of)).

AllenJB

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[George Prowse]

On 09/04/2010 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:
>> On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>> On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaine<guy.fontaine@videotron.qc.ca>   wrote:
>>>> There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
>>>>
>>>> My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.
>>>
>>> Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
>>> even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
>>> constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
>>> the project.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>
>> I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have
>> said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review
>> documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great
>> place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.
>>
>> The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial
>> wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going
>> to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going
>> to want "how to set up FreeDOOM" on it.
>>
>
> Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own "section", so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset.
> It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say "If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki".
>
> I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-)
>
I see it as a collaboration piece, something to bridge the gap between 
developers and users. Users can create pages detailing certain facets of 
Gentoo and it may get to be included in the documentation on gentoo.org.

Some documentation is unfit for an official wiki but that doesn't mean 
that the information doesn't need to be there for users, that is where 
the official and unofficial wiki should work together .

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

Allen, if you don't have anything constructive to add, then please
refrain from adding to this thread.

Thanks,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Mike Pagano]

Here's one possible use-case.

For me, I would consider moving http://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/genpatches/index.htm to the official wiki so that other people in the kernel herd can update it.

If the updating could be scripted, of course.

I would not have considered it for an unofficial wiki running on nonGentoo infrastructure. We've been looking for a new 'home' for awhile. [1]

[1]http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176186

---
Mike Pagano
Gentoo Developer - Kernel Project
E-Mail     : mpagano@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : EEE2 601D 0763 B60F 848C  9E14 3C33 C650 B576 E4E3
Public Key : http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xB576E4E3&op=index

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2010.04.09 07:34, Duncan wrote:
> Patrick Nagel posted on Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:42:40 +0800 as excerpted:
[snip]

> Likewise, Gentoo's uncomfortable officially linking to something they 
> don't control in any way, shape, or form (except to the extent that 
> we could arguably pull his domain name for trademark reasons, if 
> things got ugly enough, tho that'd be incredibly bad for EVERYONE, 
> so nobody wants to go there!).
> 
[snip]

> -- 
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
> 

Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark 
requirements.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark
> requirements.

But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs
to happen on each page:

> the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a "news site", "fan site", "unofficial site" or "community site"

See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml

Instead it labels itself as "the Gentoo Wiki" or "the Gentoo Linux
Wiki", suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it
is an official project.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[George Prowse]

On 12/04/2010 12:32, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamford<neddyseagoon@gentoo.org>  wrote:
>>
>> Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark
>> requirements.
>
> But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs
> to happen on each page:
>
>> the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a "news site", "fan site", "unofficial site" or "community site"
>
> See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml
>
> Instead it labels itself as "the Gentoo Wiki" or "the Gentoo Linux
> Wiki", suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it
> is an official project.
>
If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are 
wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is 
to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of 
Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Arun Raghavan]

On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
> Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
> Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
> litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.

-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[George Prowse]

On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:
> On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>  wrote:
> [...]
>> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
>> Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
>> Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
>> litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
>
> I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
> perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.
>
There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Arun Raghavan]

On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:
>>
>> On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
>>> Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
>>> Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
>>> litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
>>
>> I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
>> perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.
>>
> There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise

Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
world-editable wiki.
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[George Prowse]

On 12/04/2010 14:22, Arun Raghavan wrote:
> On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>    wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
>>>> Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
>>>> Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
>>>> litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
>>>
>>> I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
>>> perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.
>>>
>> There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise
>
> Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
> world-editable wiki.

A simple warning should suffice:

"While the Gentoo community takes a large amount of care to keep the 
wiki's information correct, problems like deprecation of features, 
misinformed users and vandalism can and will always be a problem with 
the wiki format. If you see a problem please feel free to fix it, notify 
a member of the developer team or send an email to wiki@gentoo.org"

Also adding a notice like "Gentoo takes no responsibility for when you 
b0rk your box by setting the wrong CTARGET" somewhere would be good.

Those two should cover all the bases.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Ben de Groot]

On 12 April 2010 15:22, Arun Raghavan <ford_prefect@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse <george.prowse@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
>>>> Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
>>>> Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
>>>> litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
>>>
>>> I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
>>> perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.
>>>
>> There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise
>
> Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
> world-editable wiki.

If you're talking about the offical wiki, we are addressing that
problem. If you are talking about the unofficial one, I can only
agree.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Dale]

Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 12 April 2010 15:22, Arun Raghavan<ford_prefect@gentoo.org>  wrote:
>    
>> On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>      
>>> On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:
>>>        
>>>> On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse<george.prowse@gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>          
>>>>> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
>>>>> Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
>>>>> Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
>>>>> litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
>>>>>            
>>>> I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
>>>> perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise
>>>        
>> Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
>> world-editable wiki.
>>      
> If you're talking about the offical wiki, we are addressing that
> problem. If you are talking about the unofficial one, I can only
> agree.
>
> Cheers,
>    

Just to add two cents worth.  I rarely, very rarely, go to the 
"unofficial" Gentoo wiki.  To put it simply, its not supported by the 
Gentoo organization itself.  When it comes to my system, I want people 
that I know use Gentoo and understand how it works or that the info is 
from the official Gentoo Docs.

I may be able to contribute to the official Gentoo wiki when the need 
arises but I doubt I would ever do that on the current unofficial wiki.

Just my two cents worth for the day.  Back to my hole.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Duncan]

George Prowse posted on Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:13:31 +0100 as excerpted:

> If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are
> wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is
> to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of
> Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

... Which was basically my point, up-thread.  Gentoo has trademarks and 
etc, and if it decided to "go Apple" (or nuclear, the term I'd have used) 
on the unofficial wiki (among other sites), it could.  But that'd be a 
very bad situation for everyone involved, not just for the wiki, but for 
Gentoo as well.

Other than that, Gentoo doesn't control the independent and unofficial 
gentoo-wiki, and thus doesn't feel comfortable linking to it.  Quite 
reasonable, I think.

Actually, this whole sub-thread about whether they're abiding by the 
current policy or not, then, wasn't my intent, and was in fact entirely 
unexpected.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:47:50 -0500 as excerpted:

> Just to add two cents worth.  I rarely, very rarely, go to the
> "unofficial" Gentoo wiki.  To put it simply, its not supported by the
> Gentoo organization itself.  When it comes to my system, I want people
> that I know use Gentoo and understand how it works or that the info is
> from the official Gentoo Docs.
> 
> I may be able to contribute to the official Gentoo wiki when the need
> arises but I doubt I would ever do that on the current unofficial wiki.
> 
> Just my two cents worth for the day.  Back to my hole.

Really, the same here, altho I appreciated them when I got my netbook, and 
wanted to put Gentoo on it.  Unfortunately, that's about the time the site 
did its disappearing act, and most of the information I could Google, etc, 
pointed back to the wiki that wasn't there any more! =:^(

But the Arch-Linux forum thread and then wiki came to the rescue, tho I 
had to adapt some of what it said a bit more.  And the gentoo-wiki page is 
back up, now, tho I'm not sure how it compares to what was there before 
the off-lining.

But I'm more a newsgroups and mailing list person, not so comfortable with 
web forums or wikis.  Perhaps that'll change with an official Gentoo wiki, 
perhaps not, but that's why I've not volunteered for it tho I support the 
idea.  I don't want to pledge to help and then never get the properly 
rounded tuit.  Better to discover that tuit by accident, and be there, 
then pledge to be there, and not.

But I did REALLY miss them with the netbook info, that's for sure, and I 
definitely appreciate both the Gentoo wiki (after its return) and the Arch 
wiki for the info I was able to use, even more since it wasn't available 
for awhile!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman