[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Zac Medico]

On 03/01/2010 01:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.

If you don't want to disable the cups flag globally, you might
choose to disable for gtk+ by default in profiles/base/package.use
like this:

  x11-libs/gtk+ -cups

That can be overridden by user's USE=cups setting in make.conf, so
the only effect would be to break the circular dependency by default.
-- 
Thanks,
Zac

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Mart Raudsepp]

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On E, 2010-03-01 at 13:40 -0800, Zac Medico wrote:
> On 03/01/2010 01:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> > For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> > enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> > dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> > poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.
> 
> If you don't want to disable the cups flag globally, you might
> choose to disable for gtk+ by default in profiles/base/package.use
> like this:
> 
>   x11-libs/gtk+ -cups
> 
> That can be overridden by user's USE=cups setting in make.conf, so
> the only effect would be to break the circular dependency by default.

I don't think there was any such problem until poppler maintainers
decided to unsplit poppler into one big packages with USE flags again
instead of the nice split poppler, poppler-glib (that should have been
named poppler-cairo probably instead), poppler-qt3, poppler-qt4 and
poppler-utils.
I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.


-- 
Mart Raudsepp
Gentoo Developer
Mail: leio@gentoo.org
Weblog: http://blogs.gentoo.org/leio

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I don't think there was any such problem until poppler maintainers
> decided to unsplit poppler into one big packages with USE flags again
> instead of the nice split poppler, poppler-glib (that should have been
> named poppler-cairo probably instead), poppler-qt3, poppler-qt4 and
> poppler-utils.

Also of note is that we've made efforts to split packages to avoid
circular dependencies[1]. So it's really silly to add circular deps by
un-splitting packages.


1. http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=269747#c11

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 3 March 2010 19:54, Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Also of note is that we've made efforts to split packages to avoid
> circular dependencies[1]. So it's really silly to add circular deps by
> un-splitting packages.

I think it's silly to split packages for no good reason. And doing it to
avoid circular deps is only a good reason in extreme cases where
they can't be worked around in any other way. Standard Gentoo
practice is one ebuild per upstream package and useflags to toggle
optional functionality. I don't see any reason to deviate from that
practice in the case of poppler.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
> having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
> while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.

I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
desktop system.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nathan Zachary]

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On 03/03/10 15:51, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> wrote:
>   
>> I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
>> having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
>> while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.
>>     
> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
> desktop system.
>
> Cheers,
>   
I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and
especially in the base profile.  Many systems run desktop environments
without needing printing support.  As we advance further toward a
paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes
even less.  And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities by
placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be left
to the user.

Regards,
Nathan Zachary

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 03/03/10 15:51, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp<leio@gentoo.org>  wrote:
>>    
>>> I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
>>> having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
>>> while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.
>>>      
>> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
>> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
>> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
>> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
>> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
>> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
>> desktop system.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>    
> I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and 
> especially in the base profile.  Many systems run desktop environments 
> without needing printing support.  As we advance further toward a 
> paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes 
> even less.  And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities 
> by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be 
> left to the user.
>
> Regards,
> Nathan Zachary

One could argue the opposite as well.  Adding -cups to make.conf is just 
as easy.

I'm one of those lowly users.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nathan Zachary]

I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
>>> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
>>> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
>>> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
>>> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
>>> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
>>> desktop system.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>    
>> I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and
>> especially in the base profile.  Many systems run desktop
>> environments without needing printing support.  As we advance further
>> toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing
>> support becomes even less.  And, as it is incredibly simple to add
>> print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf,
>> that choice should be left to the user.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Nathan Zachary
>
> One could argue the opposite as well.  Adding -cups to make.conf is
> just as easy.
>
> I'm one of those lowly users.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by
default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies
upon their first installation.  They can then add cups to their
make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support. 

Just as a sidebar, there is not a "lowly user."  Your input is greatly
important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the
userbase.  It's your operating system too! :)

Regards,
Nathan Zachary

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
>    
>>>> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
>>>> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
>>>> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
>>>> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
>>>> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
>>>> desktop system.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and
>>> especially in the base profile.  Many systems run desktop
>>> environments without needing printing support.  As we advance further
>>> toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing
>>> support becomes even less.  And, as it is incredibly simple to add
>>> print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf,
>>> that choice should be left to the user.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Nathan Zachary
>>>        
>> One could argue the opposite as well.  Adding -cups to make.conf is
>> just as easy.
>>
>> I'm one of those lowly users.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>
>>      
> I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by
> default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies
> upon their first installation.  They can then add cups to their
> make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support.
>
> Just as a sidebar, there is not a "lowly user."  Your input is greatly
> important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the
> userbase.  It's your operating system too! :)
>
> Regards,
> Nathan Zachary
>
>    

Let just think of it this way.  I have to reinstall say from a dead hard 
drive.  I have copies of my make.conf and world file.  I install my new 
drive, download the tarball and unpack it.  I copy over make.conf and 
world.  Naturally cups will be enabled.  Then I sync and start to 
update.  Isn't that circular dependency still going to be there?  After 
all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from scratch.  I set my USE 
line before I start to emerge or update.

It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much.  Maybe I am 
incorrect in that.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nathan Zachary]

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On 03/03/10 20:17, Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
>>   
>>>>> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
>>>>> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
>>>>> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
>>>>> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
>>>>> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
>>>>> desktop system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>> I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and
>>>> especially in the base profile.  Many systems run desktop
>>>> environments without needing printing support.  As we advance further
>>>> toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing
>>>> support becomes even less.  And, as it is incredibly simple to add
>>>> print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf,
>>>> that choice should be left to the user.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Nathan Zachary
>>>>        
>>> One could argue the opposite as well.  Adding -cups to make.conf is
>>> just as easy.
>>>
>>> I'm one of those lowly users.
>>>
>>> Dale
>>>
>>> :-)  :-)
>>>
>>>      
>> I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by
>> default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies
>> upon their first installation.  They can then add cups to their
>> make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support.
>>
>> Just as a sidebar, there is not a "lowly user."  Your input is greatly
>> important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the
>> userbase.  It's your operating system too! :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Nathan Zachary
>>
>>    
>
> Let just think of it this way.  I have to reinstall say from a dead
> hard drive.  I have copies of my make.conf and world file.  I install
> my new drive, download the tarball and unpack it.  I copy over
> make.conf and world.  Naturally cups will be enabled.  Then I sync and
> start to update.  Isn't that circular dependency still going to be
> there?  After all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from scratch. 
> I set my USE line before I start to emerge or update.
>
> It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much.  Maybe I
> am incorrect in that.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
I believe the circular dependency is solved if one emerges gtk+ (and
possibly poppler?) without CUPS support, and then goes back and emerges
everything with CUPS.

Regards,
Nathan Zachary

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 03/03/10 20:17, Dale wrote:
>> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>>> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
>>>>>> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
>>>>>> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
>>>>>> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
>>>>>> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
>>>>>> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
>>>>>> desktop system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and
>>>>> especially in the base profile.  Many systems run desktop
>>>>> environments without needing printing support.  As we advance further
>>>>> toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing
>>>>> support becomes even less.  And, as it is incredibly simple to add
>>>>> print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf,
>>>>> that choice should be left to the user.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Nathan Zachary
>>>> One could argue the opposite as well.  Adding -cups to make.conf is
>>>> just as easy.
>>>>
>>>> I'm one of those lowly users.
>>>>
>>>> Dale
>>>>
>>>> :-)  :-)
>>>>
>>> I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by
>>> default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies
>>> upon their first installation.  They can then add cups to their
>>> make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support.
>>>
>>> Just as a sidebar, there is not a "lowly user."  Your input is greatly
>>> important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the
>>> userbase.  It's your operating system too! :)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Nathan Zachary
>>>
>>
>> Let just think of it this way.  I have to reinstall say from a dead 
>> hard drive.  I have copies of my make.conf and world file.  I install 
>> my new drive, download the tarball and unpack it.  I copy over 
>> make.conf and world.  Naturally cups will be enabled.  Then I sync 
>> and start to update.  Isn't that circular dependency still going to 
>> be there?  After all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from 
>> scratch.  I set my USE line before I start to emerge or update.
>>
>> It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much.  Maybe I 
>> am incorrect in that.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>
> I believe the circular dependency is solved if one emerges gtk+ (and 
> possibly poppler?) without CUPS support, and then goes back and 
> emerges everything with CUPS.
>
> Regards,
> Nathan Zachary

So in the situation above, removing cups doesn't help any?  The user 
would still have to work around the dependency problem.  Is there not a 
better way to handle this?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Richard Freeman]

On 03/03/2010 09:41 PM, Dale wrote:
> So in the situation above, removing cups doesn't help any? The user
> would still have to work around the dependency problem. Is there not a
> better way to handle this?

Agreed that there should be better ways of handling things.

However, at the very least if somebody follows the instructions in the 
Gentoo Handbook to the letter, they shouldn't end up staring at an error 
message.  A completely scripted install using any non-experimental 
profile should "just work."

So, removing the use flag should probably be done at least in the interim.

That said, I do agree that we need to try to avoid this circular 
dependency in the first place.  It is kind of silly that you can't even 
do an emerge -u world right out of a stage3 using a fairly common set of 
use flags and get a working system.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 03/03/2010 09:41 PM, Dale wrote:
>> So in the situation above, removing cups doesn't help any? The user
>> would still have to work around the dependency problem. Is there not a
>> better way to handle this?
>
> Agreed that there should be better ways of handling things.
>
> However, at the very least if somebody follows the instructions in the 
> Gentoo Handbook to the letter, they shouldn't end up staring at an 
> error message.  A completely scripted install using any 
> non-experimental profile should "just work."
>
> So, removing the use flag should probably be done at least in the 
> interim.
>
> That said, I do agree that we need to try to avoid this circular 
> dependency in the first place.  It is kind of silly that you can't 
> even do an emerge -u world right out of a stage3 using a fairly common 
> set of use flags and get a working system.
>

I only raised the point in case someone could come up with a better long 
term solution.  It may be that this is the only way right now.  However, 
it may be that someone will consider this that actually sits and writes 
the code for portage or decides how dependencies are calculated.  Maybe 
a better way will present itself in the future.  A good solution for 
most of the blocks was found so this will be dealt with at some point 
with a long term plan.

Now watch some geek find a really simple solution next week.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Markus Oehme]

At Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:19:42 -0600,
Dale wrote:
> Now watch some geek find a really simple solution next week.  ;-)

I'm not very expirienced at gentoo development, but I just thought of (I
hope) a possible solution to this.

A circular dependency should always be caused by some USE flags (otherwise
it could never be satisfied). So if portage detects a circular dependency,
it could try first merging the circle without _any_ USE flags and in a
second sweep do the merges with the correct USE flags (so some packages get
merged twice in a run with circular dependencies).

Since this seems to be what would be done manually otherwise I think this
should work, but I'm just a noob, so no guarantees ;)

       	     Markus

--
Aoccdrnig to a threoy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod
are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the
rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it in msot
csaes. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef,
but the wrod as a wlohe. And I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2010.03.04 02:17, Dale wrote:

[snip]
> 
> Let just think of it this way.  I have to reinstall say from a dead
> hard 
> drive.  I have copies of my make.conf and world file.  I install my
> new 
> drive, download the tarball and unpack it.  I copy over make.conf and 
> world.  Naturally cups will be enabled.  Then I sync and start to 
> update.  Isn't that circular dependency still going to be there? 
> After 
> all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from scratch.  I set my USE 
> line before I start to emerge or update.
> 
> It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much.  Maybe I
> am 
> incorrect in that.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 
> 
Dale,

That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new 
user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience 
with Gentoo.

Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her 
first install.

It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without 
forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences.
That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) an member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dawid Węgliński]

On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote:

> 
> That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new
> user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience
> with Gentoo.
> 
> Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her
> first install.
> 
> It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without
> forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences.
> That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies.

Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook -> reads "set up USE variables in 
make.conf" and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If 
gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work.

-- 
Cheers
Dawid Węgliński

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Pacho Ramos]

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El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 19:03 +0100, Dawid Węgliński escribió:
> On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote:
> 
> > 
> > That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new
> > user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience
> > with Gentoo.
> > 
> > Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her
> > first install.
> > 
> > It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without
> > forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences.
> > That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies.
> 
> Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook -> reads "set up USE variables in 
> make.conf" and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If 
> gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work.
> 

+1

I did it (I mean, add some commonly used USE flags) in all my Gentoo
installations, and I would add "cups" for sure (since printing is used
every day in most machines I use and administrate).

Leio pointed some messages ago about the possibility of splitting some
poppler parts to fix this circular dep issue, what is the problem with
that option? The suggestion is not about splitting every poppler part in
tons of ebuilds, but simply split poppler in the minimum needed to fix
this problem (sorry if I missed the reply, I haven't followed discussion
too deeply :-( )

Thanks and best regards

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 19:03 +0100, Dawid Węgliński escribió:
>    
>> On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote:
>>
>>      
>>> That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new
>>> user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience
>>> with Gentoo.
>>>
>>> Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her
>>> first install.
>>>
>>> It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without
>>> forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences.
>>> That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies.
>>>        
>> Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook ->  reads "set up USE variables in
>> make.conf" and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If
>> gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work.
>>
>>      
> +1
>
> I did it (I mean, add some commonly used USE flags) in all my Gentoo
> installations, and I would add "cups" for sure (since printing is used
> every day in most machines I use and administrate).
>
> Leio pointed some messages ago about the possibility of splitting some
> poppler parts to fix this circular dep issue, what is the problem with
> that option? The suggestion is not about splitting every poppler part in
> tons of ebuilds, but simply split poppler in the minimum needed to fix
> this problem (sorry if I missed the reply, I haven't followed discussion
> too deeply :-( )
>
> Thanks and best regards
>    

This is what I am saying.  *IF* cups were some little known or obscure 
USE flag, one could make the argument that it would not be set until 
later on.  I started with Gentoo over 6 years ago.  I had only used 
anything Linux for a few months.  I knew what cups was.  Even tho I was 
new to Linux when I first installed Mandrake, I knew I had a printer.  
It was a old used one at the time but I still had a printer.  I wanted 
that printer to work.  Mandrake picked that up for me, Gentoo is not 
that way.  I have to pick that up, not the OS.

I am also saying that this needs a long term fix.  I'm thinking a long 
term fix like happened with the blocks issue.  If in the short term this 
USE flag ha to be removed, then fine.  It's doesn't really fix anything 
is my opinion.  If a user turns that flag on as is in the docs, the 
problem is still there.  This is why we need a long term fix.  This may 
take a good while, months, year, who knows.  This just should not be 
called "fixed" when the problem is still there.  Please don't just 
remove the USE flag and forget the reason it happened.  This is Gentoo.  
I'm proud to tell people I use it.  I want it to stay on top of the pile 
not fall to the bottom.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Angelo Arrifano]

On Sex, 2010-03-05 at 19:03 +0100, Dawid Węgliński wrote:
> On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote:
> 
> > 
> > That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new
> > user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience
> > with Gentoo.
> > 
> > Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her
> > first install.
> > 
> > It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without
> > forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences.
> > That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies.
> 
> Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook -> reads "set up USE variables in 
> make.conf" and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If 
> gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work.
> 

+1

Most people trying Gentoo already had some history with other Linux
distros. So, I'm sure they will recognize the cups USE flag when they
see it. Most everyone I know also have a printer (some with a pile of
dust on it) so I think most of people will enable that USE flag anyway.
-- 
Angelo Arrifano AKA MiKNiX
Gentoo Embedded/OMAP850 Developer
Linwizard Developer
http://www.gentoo.org/~miknix
http://miknix.homelinux.com

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dawid Węgliński]

On Wednesday 03 March 2010 22:51:10 Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
> > having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
> > while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.
> 
> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't
> think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result
> cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to
> agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they
> need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a
> desktop system.
> 
> Cheers,

How is that going to fix circular dependency problem? What will you do if every 
user add cups to USE in make.conf? Say "we don't support cups turned on by 
default"? I hope no. Removing this flag from profile will not fix any problem but 
hide it.

-- 
Cheers
Dawid Węgliński

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Joshua Saddler]

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> On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
> > having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
> > while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.
> 
> It is not something that is necessary for running a
> desktop system.

Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop.

Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment. It's very much a graphical activity, and that's what a desktop is. We've had the Printing Guide in our Desktop Documentation Resources section for years for that very reason.

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/?catid=desktop


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Zeerak Mustafa Waseem]

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On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:08:07PM -0800, Joshua Saddler wrote:
> 
> > On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp <leio@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not
> > > having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile,
> > > while others do, just because maintainers are lazy.
> > 
> > It is not something that is necessary for running a
> > desktop system.
> 
> Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop.
> 
> Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment. It's very much a graphical activity, and that's what a desktop is. We've had the Printing Guide in our Desktop Documentation Resources section for years for that very reason.
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/?catid=desktop
> 

Isn't the split of the desktop profile, into KDE and gnome profiles, whilst leaving a base Desktop profile, exactly meant for the purpose that if you're not building KDE/Gnome, then you don't need to set the qt flags, unless some application needs it, or you find that you'd prefer to have them set system-wide?


-- 
Zeerak Waseem

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 4 March 2010 08:27, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem <zeerak.w@gmail.com> wrote:
> Isn't the split of the desktop profile, into KDE and gnome profiles, whilst leaving a base Desktop profile, exactly meant for the purpose that if you're not building KDE/Gnome, then you don't need to set the qt flags, unless some application needs it, or you find that you'd prefer to have them set system-wide?

The toolkits should still be enabled in the default desktop profile,
they are not DE specific.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop.

Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing.

> Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment.

And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Duncan]

Ben de Groot posted on Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:28:24 +0100 as excerpted:

> On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither
>> are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building,
>> say, a *box desktop.
> 
> Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing.
> 
>> Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment.
> 
> And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so.

Indeed.  Some (many?) of us use printing uncommonly enough that it's 
cheaper to put it on a thumb drive and take it to a printer than buy a 
printer -- and pay for another $10-30 ink cartridge every time we want to 
print something, because the last one dried up between uses.  (I keep 
thinking I'll buy a laser printer, but never seem to get around to doing 
the research on best supported, etc, and always seem to have other things 
to spend the money on.  Besides, the tech keeps getting better, so a bit 
of delay isn't hurting... which I've been saying for years now.  How many 
are in a similar position?)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Jeremy Olexa]

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:04:17 +0000 (UTC), Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>
wrote:
> Ben de Groot posted on Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:28:24 +0100 as excerpted:
> 
>> On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither
>>> are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building,
>>> say, a *box desktop.
>> 
>> Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing.
>> 
>>> Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment.
>> 
>> And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so.
> 
> Indeed.  Some (many?) of us use printing uncommonly enough that it's 
> cheaper to put it on a thumb drive and take it to a printer than buy a 
> printer -- and pay for another $10-30 ink cartridge every time we want
to 
> print something, because the last one dried up between uses.  (I keep 
> thinking I'll buy a laser printer, but never seem to get around to doing

> the research on best supported, etc, and always seem to have other
things 
> to spend the money on.  Besides, the tech keeps getting better, so a bit

> of delay isn't hurting... which I've been saying for years now.  How
many 
> are in a similar position?)

Similarly, I have never *owned* a printer because work or school always
has had free printing. So, my opinion is that the Gentoo default of
USE=cups in desktop profiles is bogus for *my* Gentoo desktops. But, I'm
not a desktop profile consumer anyway because they are sub-optimal, imo. ;)

-Jeremy

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 4 March 2010 18:23, Jeremy Olexa <darkside@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:04:17 +0000 (UTC), Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>
> wrote:
>> Indeed.  Some (many?) of us use printing uncommonly enough that it's
>> cheaper to put it on a thumb drive and take it to a printer than buy a
>> printer -- and pay for another $10-30 ink cartridge every time we want
>> to print something, because the last one dried up between uses.
>
> Similarly, I have never *owned* a printer because work or school always
> has had free printing. So, my opinion is that the Gentoo default of
> USE=cups in desktop profiles is bogus for *my* Gentoo desktops.

Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Vincent Launchbury]

On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:
> Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
> think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.
>
> Cheers,

I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.

As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the problem 
at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of users.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
>> think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.
>>
>> Cheers,
>
> I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
> enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.
>
> As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the 
> problem at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of 
> users.
>
>
I can't think of anyone that doesn't have a printer.  All my friends and 
family that has a computer has a printer.  Heck, I had a printer hooked 
up to my old Vic-20 for goodness sake.  That was over 20 years ago.

He wants to remove the USE flag so that it hides the fact it is not 
really fixed.  If a person does their install as they should, the 
problem will be right there for them to deal with.  Of course, the user 
will the one getting pointed at since they added the flag.  It takes the 
problem off the people that created it and adds it to the user.  That is 
not how it should be fixed.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Brian Harring]

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On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:07:17PM -0600, Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:
> >> Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
> >> think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >
> > I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
> > enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.
> >
> > As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the 
> > problem at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of 
> > users.
> >
> >
> I can't think of anyone that doesn't have a printer.  All my friends and 
> family that has a computer has a printer.  Heck, I had a printer hooked 
> up to my old Vic-20 for goodness sake.  That was over 20 years ago.

A sampling size of one is of course representive of the whole.  The 
vast majority of gentoo deployments I deal in, cups is bloat- my 
personal laptop, sure, that's a different story.  That's well under a 
tenth of my installs however.

The point there is that one size doesn't fit all- we have inheritance 
in the profiles for a reason.  Shift cups out of the base and into 
desktop specific profiles.

That one shouldn't be a point of debate.


> He wants to remove the USE flag so that it hides the fact it is not 
> really fixed.  If a person does their install as they should, the 
> problem will be right there for them to deal with.  Of course, the user 
> will the one getting pointed at since they added the flag.

Two scenarios.

1) flag is left on by default.  emerge pukes at them about the use 
cycle, user has to go googling and try to figure out the way around 
this (with the end result being "flip the flag off, merge stuff, flip 
it back on, rebuild the affected pkgs"

2) flag is left off by default.  things emerge fine, but user finds 
they don't have printing.  So... they google it, find out that they 
need to turn a use flag on and then do an emerge -N.


Of the two *viable* scenarios, #2 is frankly the one that's going to 
be less of a pita to users- the folk who need cups on a desktop have a 
clear and simple path to getting cups, versus #1 which requires the 
user to understand dependency cycles induced by use state.

One thing to note- for #1, the user is going to have to do the same 
steps as #2, they're just going to hit a terse failure instead of 
finding that when they go to print, they need to rebuild w/ cups 
support on.  #2 contains the issues/breakage a helluva lot more than 
#1 does.


> It takes the problem off the people that created it and adds it to 
> the user.  That is not how it should be fixed.

Lay off pointing fingers.  Cycles exist and are rather hard to fix- if 
in doubt I strongly suggest you do some research into how stages are 
built (and the existance of the build use flag).  The problem is the 
interdependence in the raw src itself, not ebuild devs.

The use state induced hard dependency cycle issue has been known for a 
long while- the solution to this requires the resolver being able to 
break the cycle via building the pkg multiple times with the use 
state varied to break cycles (as far as I know, none of the PMs do 
this although pkgcore could at one point).

Modifying the resolver to do that sort of cycle breaking is rather 
tricky- work should be done towards it, but it's not the sort of 
thing that's going to be implemented today, and stabled tomorrow.

Basically, punt the flag if you don't want users to hit a cycle on 
fresh installs- it's the only option that exists *now* (and those 
screaming should focus their efforts on implementing the use cycle 
breaking I mentioned above).

~harring

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Mike Frysinger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1583 bytes --]

On Thursday 04 March 2010 19:32:10 Brian Harring wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:07:17PM -0600, Dale wrote:
> > chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > > On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:
> > >> Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I
> > >> don't think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.
> > >> 
> > >> Cheers,
> > > 
> > > I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
> > > enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.
> > > 
> > > As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the
> > > problem at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of
> > > users.
> > 
> > I can't think of anyone that doesn't have a printer.  All my friends and
> > family that has a computer has a printer.  Heck, I had a printer hooked
> > up to my old Vic-20 for goodness sake.  That was over 20 years ago.
> 
> A sampling size of one is of course representive of the whole.  The
> vast majority of gentoo deployments I deal in, cups is bloat- my
> personal laptop, sure, that's a different story.  That's well under a
> tenth of my installs however.
> 
> The point there is that one size doesn't fit all- we have inheritance
> in the profiles for a reason.  Shift cups out of the base and into
> desktop specific profiles.
> 
> That one shouldn't be a point of debate.

indeed.  printing support should absolutely be enabled by default in desktop 
profiles.  i'm not sure it makes sense in other profiles.
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddler<nightmorph@gentoo.org>  wrote:
>    
>> Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop.
>>      
> Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing.
>
>    
>> Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment.
>>      
> And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so.
>
> Cheers,
>    

Sounds like your argument is more like a opinion.  I built my desktop 
about 6 years ago and the next thing bought after the build was a 
printer.  I use it daily.  I'm 42 so I don't have access to a "free" 
printer at a school or some public printer.  Everyone here charges by 
the page so it is much cheaper for me to own my own printer.

Removing the cups USE flag still doesn't fix the problem I pointed out 
in another reply.  If you unpack the tarball and set the USE line as you 
should, the circular dependency is still there.  Correct?  So nothing is 
"fixed" by doing this.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 21:01, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds like your argument is more like a opinion.  I built my desktop about

Since people keep talking about not wanting cups disabled for the
desktop profiles, can we at least agree that it should be disabled by
default for the non-desktop profiles?

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 21:01, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Sounds like your argument is more like a opinion.  I built my desktop about
>>      
> Since people keep talking about not wanting cups disabled for the
> desktop profiles, can we at least agree that it should be disabled by
> default for the non-desktop profiles?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
>
>    

To me, that makes sense.  It certainly seems more logical to do that.  
I'm of the opinion that a server profile should be very limited.  Let 
the user decide what kind of server they are going to have.  A desktop 
profile can be limited but should include the more common options.  
There may be things that would depend on what type of GUI you are 
running but that could be left up to the user and documented in the 
docs.  Let the user pick which path they want to go down.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 4 March 2010 21:01, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Removing the cups USE flag still doesn't fix the problem I pointed out in
> another reply.  If you unpack the tarball and set the USE line as you
> should, the circular dependency is still there.  Correct?  So nothing is
> "fixed" by doing this.

What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a
fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default
dependency on cups that many users do not need.

What it does not fix is the case of users who enable both cairo and
cups useflags on a system where neither gtk+ nor cups is present
yet. But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
should be enabled in profiles.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 4 March 2010 21:01, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Removing the cups USE flag still doesn't fix the problem I pointed out in
>> another reply.  If you unpack the tarball and set the USE line as you
>> should, the circular dependency is still there.  Correct?  So nothing is
>> "fixed" by doing this.
>>      
> What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a
> fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default
> dependency on cups that many users do not need.
>
> What it does not fix is the case of users who enable both cairo and
> cups useflags on a system where neither gtk+ nor cups is present
> yet. But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
> should be enabled in profiles.
>
> Cheers,
>    

In the other post, I explained how this will not fix this at all.  As 
mentioned, untar the tarball, copy the make.conf and world file over 
then start the install.  Guess what, the circular dependency is right 
there.  If I had to reinstall Gentoo from scratch, because of say a hard 
drive failure, that is what I would do.  If a person follows the 
documentation and enables the USE flags they need, same thing.  It's not 
like cups is a hidden feature.  Anyone even familiar with Linux a little 
bit knows what cups is.

As I have learned a long time ago, you enable the USE flags as soon as 
possible.  If you don't, you end up recompiling a lot of packages just 
to enable them later.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 4 March 2010 23:34, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>> What it does not fix is the case of users who enable both cairo and
>> cups useflags on a system where neither gtk+ nor cups is present
>> yet. [...]
>
> In the other post, I explained how this will not fix this at all.

So we agree there. You did not seem to grasp the following part:

>> But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
>> should be enabled in profiles.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 4 March 2010 23:34, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
> [...]
>    
>>> What it does not fix is the case of users who enable both cairo and
>>> cups useflags on a system where neither gtk+ nor cups is present
>>> yet. [...]
>>>        
>> In the other post, I explained how this will not fix this at all.
>>      
> So we agree there. You did not seem to grasp the following part:
>
>    
>>> But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
>>> should be enabled in profiles.
>>>        
> Cheers,
>    

Actually, it is the problem.  You want to remove cups to solve the 
problem of circular dependencies.  How can you discuss one without the 
other?  To say that you want to fix a problem that is not fixed just 
doesn't make sense.  The problem, whether you remove cups or not, is 
still there.   As soon as a user adds cups, you have changed nothing at 
all.  The only difference is you get to blame the user for "creating" 
the problem by adding cups.

It seems to me that the problem was created by splitting popular and now 
you need yet another fix.  There needs to be a better way to do this.  
Fixing a fix, then fixing another fix and so on is not going to work.  
This is like running in circles.  It gets you nowhere.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
>>>> should be enabled in profiles.
>
> Actually, it is the problem.  You want to remove cups to solve the problem
> of circular dependencies.

What I wrote was:

>> What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a
>> fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default
>> dependency on cups that many users do not need.

But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop
responding.

Good night,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>>>>> But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
>>>>> should be enabled in profiles.
>>>>>            
>> Actually, it is the problem.  You want to remove cups to solve the problem
>> of circular dependencies.
>>      
> What I wrote was:
>
>    
>>> What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a
>>> fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default
>>> dependency on cups that many users do not need.
>>>        
> But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop
> responding.
>
> Good night,
>    

You notice what I wrote?  If I had to install Gentoo again, I would copy 
or set my USE flags first then install.  If I do that right after 
unpacking the tarball, which is how it should be done, then you have 
fixed nothing.  The problem you claim to have fixed is not fixed at all.

Maybe it is not me that should stop responding?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Patrick Nagel]

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Hi,

On 2010-03-05 00:00 UTC Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>>> But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
> >>>>> should be enabled in profiles.
> >> 
> >> Actually, it is the problem.  You want to remove cups to solve the
> >> problem of circular dependencies.
> > 
> > What I wrote was:
> >>> What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a
> >>> fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default
> >>> dependency on cups that many users do not need.
> > 
> > But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop
> > responding.
> > 
> > Good night,
> 
> You notice what I wrote?  If I had to install Gentoo again, I would copy
> or set my USE flags first then install.  If I do that right after
> unpacking the tarball, which is how it should be done, then you have
> fixed nothing.  The problem you claim to have fixed is not fixed at all.
> 
> Maybe it is not me that should stop responding?

Obviously, users who "re-install" Gentoo the way you do will have less 
difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following 
the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience.

Patrick.

-- 
Key ID: 0x86E346D4            http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc
Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Richard Freeman]

On 03/04/2010 08:57 PM, Patrick Nagel wrote:
> Obviously, users who "re-install" Gentoo the way you do will have less
> difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following
> the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience.

I think that the cups issue is probably worth mentioning in the 
Handbook.  Whether it is there by default or not lots of people get 
burned by it.  A little advanced warning would help.

I think that at the very least following the handbooks to the letter 
should never lead to an error.

I think that a good argument can be made for or against having cups in 
the desktop profile - this might actually be the sort of thing a survey 
would be useful to address.

I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue.  As long as 
we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be off the 
list.  However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a short-term 
solution.

The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far:

1.  A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies 
automatically.

2.  Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues.

Both of these need effort to address.  #1 requires PM work, and #2 
requires an ongoing commitment to do more work to keep poppler working.

Unless somebody can come up with a #3 at this point the most 
constructive thing anybody can do is help out.  A good place to start 
would be to write up some patches to the handbook that clearly explain 
how to deal with this problem.

I'm not sure I agree with the poppler maintainers but they may have 
reasons that aren't apparent to me and the fact is that it is a whole 
lot easier to tell somebody how to maintain a package when I'm not the 
one actually doing the work.  Nothing gets results in FOSS like dirty 
hands...

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On 03/04/2010 08:57 PM, Patrick Nagel wrote:
>> Obviously, users who "re-install" Gentoo the way you do will have less
>> difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just 
>> following
>> the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience.
>
> I think that the cups issue is probably worth mentioning in the 
> Handbook.  Whether it is there by default or not lots of people get 
> burned by it.  A little advanced warning would help.
>
> I think that at the very least following the handbooks to the letter 
> should never lead to an error.
>
> I think that a good argument can be made for or against having cups in 
> the desktop profile - this might actually be the sort of thing a 
> survey would be useful to address.
>
> I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue.  As long 
> as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be 
> off the list.  However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a 
> short-term solution.
>
> The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far:
>
> 1.  A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies 
> automatically.
>
> 2.  Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues.
>
> Both of these need effort to address.  #1 requires PM work, and #2 
> requires an ongoing commitment to do more work to keep poppler working.
>
> Unless somebody can come up with a #3 at this point the most 
> constructive thing anybody can do is help out.  A good place to start 
> would be to write up some patches to the handbook that clearly explain 
> how to deal with this problem.
>
> I'm not sure I agree with the poppler maintainers but they may have 
> reasons that aren't apparent to me and the fact is that it is a whole 
> lot easier to tell somebody how to maintain a package when I'm not the 
> one actually doing the work.  Nothing gets results in FOSS like dirty 
> hands...
>
> Rich
>
>

Well said.  I agree with this.  The devs may not be able to fix this 
specific issue but circular deps come up.  We need a long term fix and 
now is as good a time as any to start thinking of one.  Heck, I don't 
expect this to be done this week.  It may take months to fix this or 
just figure out a way to do it.  I just know this is becoming a problem 
and it isn't getting any better even tho people are trying.  I would 
like to see a solution like happened with the blocks issue.  Just some 
way that is easy for the devs to keep the tree clean but also have a 
package manager that can work around this.  Even if it means portage 
spitting out a message that some packages shouldn't be used during the 
update because some packages have to be uninstalled first, that would be 
good.  Let portage wait for a yes/no reply before doing the updates and 
doing them as close to first thing as possible.  Read that as, don't 
compile openoffice then come back to the deps part.

Progress.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Graham Murray]

Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:

> I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue.  As long
> as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be
> off the list.  However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a
> short-term solution.
>
> The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far:
>
> 1.  A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies
> automatically.
>
> 2.  Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues.

Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies
on initial install?

3.  Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> Richard Freeman<rich0@gentoo.org>  writes:
>
>    
>> I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue.  As long
>> as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be
>> off the list.  However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a
>> short-term solution.
>>
>> The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far:
>>
>> 1.  A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies
>> automatically.
>>
>> 2.  Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues.
>>      
> Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies
> on initial install?
>
> 3.  Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.
>
>    

I'm not a dev but what else uses poppler or other packages that would be 
added?  Also, this would affect server profiles.  Last I checked, 
server, desktop or any other profile starts from the same tarball.  It's 
a idea but would it be a good one?  I don't know the answer to that 
question.

Is this a Gentoo thing or is this caused by upstream?  I only use Gentoo 
so maybe it affects other distros as well.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Zeerak Mustafa Waseem]

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On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 10:19:05PM -0600, Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > Richard Freeman<rich0@gentoo.org>  writes:
> >
> >    
> >> I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue.  As long
> >> as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be
> >> off the list.  However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a
> >> short-term solution.
> >>
> >> The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far:
> >>
> >> 1.  A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies
> >> automatically.
> >>
> >> 2.  Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues.
> >>      
> > Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies
> > on initial install?
> >
> > 3.  Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.
> >
> >    
> 
> I'm not a dev but what else uses poppler or other packages that would be 
> added?  Also, this would affect server profiles.  Last I checked, 
> server, desktop or any other profile starts from the same tarball.  It's 
> a idea but would it be a good one?  I don't know the answer to that 
> question.
> 
> Is this a Gentoo thing or is this caused by upstream?  I only use Gentoo 
> so maybe it affects other distros as well.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 

Well the merge of the poppler packages seems to have been made in upstream. So it should affect other distros as well. Perhaps not binary distros, though. 
For now I don't see any other way to solve it other than removing the use flag, and perhaps adding a warning in the handbook about this circular dep.
the idea about using a tarball is good enough, the problem with that (as I see it) is what Dale also points out. Desktop and server profiles start from the same tarball, so in order to do this effectively (I seem to remember people coming to an agreement that a server profile wouldn't need cups), there'd have to be a tarball for desktops and one for servers.
I quite like the idea of a unified tarball, and going from there, choosing the right profile etc. As opposed to choosing the right tarball, then choosing the right profile that fits with that tarball. To me it seems to complicate matters where there's no need. And also, we would like for portage to continue to grow, and being able to resolve circular dependencies automatically, doesn't seem like a bad goal. :-)

-- 
Zeerak Waseem

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 5 March 2010 04:18, Graham Murray <graham@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
> Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies
> on initial install?
>
> 3.  Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.

None of the packages involved (gtk+, cups and poppler) is in any
shape or form essential, so you will have a very hard time convincing
people that this is the best solution.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Richard Freeman]

On 03/05/2010 08:06 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 5 March 2010 04:18, Graham Murray<graham@gmurray.org.uk>  wrote:
>> 3.  Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.
> None of the packages involved (gtk+, cups and poppler) is in any
> shape or form essential, so you will have a very hard time convincing
> people that this is the best solution.

I tend to agree, but do consider this:

1.  We wouldn't need to put all the packages in the dep list up to these 
packages in the tarball - you could just put one package in the tarball 
so that when emerge gets to this point it won't die.

2.  You don't need to put that package in @system, so the first time the 
user cleans out their install it will be removed.  For server users it 
will start out there but will eventually go away.

It does increase the size of the tarball, which is of course 
undesirable.  We might also need to modify the build scripts since I'm 
guessing those scripts look at @system to figure out what belongs in the 
tarball and these packages don't need to be there.

I do agree that it isn't really an ideal solution, and probably not the 
first thing we should try...

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Zac Medico]

On 03/06/2010 04:24 AM, Richard Freeman wrote:
> On 03/05/2010 08:06 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> On 5 March 2010 04:18, Graham Murray<graham@gmurray.org.uk>  wrote:
>>> 3.  Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.
>> None of the packages involved (gtk+, cups and poppler) is in any
>> shape or form essential, so you will have a very hard time convincing
>> people that this is the best solution.
> 
> I tend to agree, but do consider this:
> 
> 1.  We wouldn't need to put all the packages in the dep list up to these
> packages in the tarball - you could just put one package in the tarball
> so that when emerge gets to this point it won't die.
> 
> 2.  You don't need to put that package in @system, so the first time the
> user cleans out their install it will be removed.  For server users it
> will start out there but will eventually go away.
> 
> It does increase the size of the tarball, which is of course
> undesirable.  We might also need to modify the build scripts since I'm
> guessing those scripts look at @system to figure out what belongs in the
> tarball and these packages don't need to be there.
> 
> I do agree that it isn't really an ideal solution, and probably not the
> first thing we should try...

Another possible solution would be distribute binary packages to
users via PORTAGE_BINHOST. The user can simply set something like
PORTAGE_BINHOST="http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/x86"
in /etc/make.conf. Since DEPEND is ignored for binary packages, and
circular RDEPEND doesn't block installation, the circular
dependencies won't necessarily be an problem. The emerge --pretend
output shows that emerge will go ahead and install those packages
despite the circular RDEPEND:

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[binary  N    ] net-print/cups-1.3.11-r2  USE="X acl avahi dbus
gnutls java jpeg ldap pam perl php png ppds python samba slp ssl
tiff -kerberos -static -xinetd -zeroconf" LINGUAS="en -de -es -et
-fr -he -id -it -ja -pl -sv -zh_TW"  [0]


[binary  N    ] x11-libs/gtk+-2.18.6  USE="cups jpeg test tiff
xinerama (-aqua) -debug -doc -jpeg2k -vim-syntax"  [0]

[binary  N    ] dev-python/pygtk-2.16.0-r1  USE="doc examples test"
 [0]

[binary  N    ] gnome-extra/libgsf-1.14.17  USE="bzip2 gtk python
-doc -gnome -thumbnail"  [0]

[binary  N    ] app-text/poppler-0.12.4  USE="abiword cairo jpeg
lcms png qt4 utils xpdf-headers -cjk -debug -doc -exceptions
-jpeg2k"  [0]
-- 
Thanks,
Zac

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> Hi,
>
> On 2010-03-05 00:00 UTC Dale wrote:
>    
>> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>>      
>>> On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>        
>>>>>>> But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups
>>>>>>> should be enabled in profiles.
>>>>>>>                
>>>> Actually, it is the problem.  You want to remove cups to solve the
>>>> problem of circular dependencies.
>>>>          
>>> What I wrote was:
>>>        
>>>>> What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a
>>>>> fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default
>>>>> dependency on cups that many users do not need.
>>>>>            
>>> But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop
>>> responding.
>>>
>>> Good night,
>>>        
>> You notice what I wrote?  If I had to install Gentoo again, I would copy
>> or set my USE flags first then install.  If I do that right after
>> unpacking the tarball, which is how it should be done, then you have
>> fixed nothing.  The problem you claim to have fixed is not fixed at all.
>>
>> Maybe it is not me that should stop responding?
>>      
> Obviously, users who "re-install" Gentoo the way you do will have less
> difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following
> the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience.
>
> Patrick.
>
>    

Not quite.  If a person reads the docs and other howto's, they will know 
to set up the USE flags and other things in make.conf.  Isn't the USE 
flags one of Gentoo's strong points?  It is one reason I chose Gentoo 
after all.  I have read where others say it as a strong point as well.  
So, the same thing will most likely happen to anyone installing Gentoo.

Case in point, I also went here:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=6

If you scroll down to section 2.3, that is where it tells you to select 
your profile.  Want to guess what is next?  Yep, setting the USE flags.  
So, chroot in, sync the tree, select the profile then add your USE 
flags.  So far, we are where we was several replies ago.  Same problem 
and that is following the official install guide.  I wasn't looking at 
the expert guide, that is the general user guide for newbies.

If this was some rarely used flag then maybe this would make a little 
sense.  This is cups.  It's not something that is rarely used or that 
someone even a little familiar with Linux wouldn't know to turn it on.  
They may not know what cups stands for but they know it makes their 
printer work.

I guess like with some other things, the devs can do it their way and 
let that be the end of it.  I just feel the best way is to find a long 
term fix for this and other similar issues.  If it is not done now, it 
will just pile up until it is fixed.  Just like the problem with 
blocks.  It got bad enough that someone had to find a way to fix it.  
Someone did just that.  I don't know who that person is but that was a 
job well done.  We need the same type of person to deal with this.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

2010/3/4 Dawid Węgliński <cla@gentoo.org>:
> On Wednesday 03 March 2010 22:51:10 Ben de Groot wrote:
>> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
>> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile.
>
> How is that going to fix circular dependency problem? What will you do if every
> user add cups to USE in make.conf? Say "we don't support cups turned on by
> default"? I hope no. Removing this flag from profile will not fix any problem but
> hide it.

It will fix the "out of the box" circular dependency for people who
switch to a default desktop profile. This is the main problem we
need to solve now. Certain useflag and package combinations
will trigger a circular dep, that is a know occurrence in Gentoo.
But at least with a default configuration things should work out of
the box. For other configurations there are workarounds (in this
case: install gtk+ without cups, or poppler without cairo enabled
first).

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Mart Raudsepp]

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On N, 2010-03-04 at 12:50 +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: 
> 2010/3/4 Dawid Węgliński <cla@gentoo.org>:
> > On Wednesday 03 March 2010 22:51:10 Ben de Groot wrote:
> >> I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is
> >> to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile.
> >
> > How is that going to fix circular dependency problem? What will you do if every
> > user add cups to USE in make.conf? Say "we don't support cups turned on by
> > default"? I hope no. Removing this flag from profile will not fix any problem but
> > hide it.
> 
> It will fix the "out of the box" circular dependency for people who
> switch to a default desktop profile. This is the main problem we
> need to solve now.

The main problem to solve here is the circular dependency that you
yourself introduced as a co-maintainer of poppler, by converting poppler
to be monolithic. This from the outside looks like it was done to reduce
your maintenance workload in the (possibly accidental) expense of users
who are now getting circular dependencies in a fairly common setup.

If cups should be enabled in the desktop profile or not is a completely
different question.

The correct solution here is to fix the core problem that is now
happening - not to start removing common desktop needed USE flags from
the desktop profiles to delay the correct fix for this circular
dependency you guys have introduced for us.

> Certain useflag and package combinations
> will trigger a circular dep, that is a know occurrence in Gentoo.
> But at least with a default configuration things should work out of
> the box. For other configurations there are workarounds (in this
> case: install gtk+ without cups, or poppler without cairo enabled
> first).

Circular dependencies shouldn't happen in any situation. I claim there
is always a solution to avoid it. A different question is if the cost of
the solution is acceptable compared to the problems it causes. I believe
an inconvenience for the poppler maintainers is completely justified
here for the benefit of users in the form of properly split packages,
considering how this affects a majority of desktop users (problem hidden
by default or not).


I'll later make sure there is a bug for fixing this circular dependency
mess properly. I believe the only possible fix is to split poppler back
to at least core, bindings and utils, as it seems to be a problem due to
poppler-utils requirement by cups. It doesn't need poppler-glib, so
utils and bindings being a separate package, as it always was before,
would nicely solve it.


-- 
Mart Raudsepp
Gentoo Developer
Mail: leio@gentoo.org
Weblog: http://blogs.gentoo.org/leio

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Luca Barbato]

On 03/03/2010 07:45 PM, Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> I don't think there was any such problem until poppler maintainers
> decided to unsplit poppler into one big packages with USE flags again
> instead of the nice split poppler, poppler-glib (that should have been
> named poppler-cairo probably instead), poppler-qt3, poppler-qt4 and
> poppler-utils.

If we could manage to convince poppler upstream that would be nice to
actually provide bindings packages aside a core one...

lu


-- 

Luca Barbato
Gentoo/linux
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 22:24, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> enabled by default in profiles.

I'm +1 on disabling it by default.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Samuli Suominen]

On 03/01/2010 11:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.
> 
> Cheers,

+1 for disabling it by default, long as it's done with care

for example, see how it will change the pkgs using USE cups, some might
need a + default flag or they might get defaulted to "lpr"

(and that is really only a example)

RE: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Sylvain Alain]

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 +1 for disabling it by default, long as it's done with care,

because it pretty hard for a newbie to understand what the hell is going on on his first installation and a lot of people use the desktop profile since it's one of the best way to install Gentoo for the first time.

Sylvain



> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:06:10 +0200
> From: ssuominen@gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
> 
> On 03/01/2010 11:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> > For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> > enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> > dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> > poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> 
> +1 for disabling it by default, long as it's done with care
> 
> for example, see how it will change the pkgs using USE cups, some might
> need a + default flag or they might get defaulted to "lpr"
> 
> (and that is really only a example)
> 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Maciej Mrozowski]

On Monday 01 of March 2010 22:24:56 Ben de Groot wrote:
> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.

+1

Please do, as well there are some other candidates for purging from base 
profile, namely 'perl' and 'python' USE flags.

Related bug and discussion:
Bug 250179
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_afe72c138992b6a590120de199ffcc44.xml

-- 
regards
MM

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 3/1/10 11:09 PM, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> On Monday 01 of March 2010 22:24:56 Ben de Groot wrote:
>> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
>> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
>> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
>> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.
> 
> Please do, as well there are some other candidates for purging from base 
> profile, namely 'perl' and 'python' USE flags.

How do these creep in? Are there no repoman checks for that?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Petteri Räty]

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On 03/02/2010 07:53 AM, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
> On 3/1/10 11:09 PM, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
>> On Monday 01 of March 2010 22:24:56 Ben de Groot wrote:
>>> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
>>> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
>>> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
>>> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.
>>
>> Please do, as well there are some other candidates for purging from base 
>> profile, namely 'perl' and 'python' USE flags.
> 
> How do these creep in? Are there no repoman checks for that?
> 

Commits to profiles are not done with repoman and there's no checks in
it either. A lot of stuff is on by default because of history. Disabling
them didn't really make sense before we had EAPI 2.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Markos Chandras]

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On Monday 01 March 2010 23:24:56 Ben de Groot wrote:
> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.
> 
> Cheers,
Yes please

It is really annoying for a new user to deal with blockers when he first runs 
emerge -uDN world on his brand new gentoo system
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Maciej Mrozowski]

On Monday 01 of March 2010 22:24:56 Ben de Groot wrote:
> For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag
> enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular
> dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk -> cups ->
> poppler -> gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag.

poppler[utils] are just pdfto*sth converters, and they're most likely pure 
runtime depedencies for net-print/cups. Could someone from printing herd 
verify?
If so, then it's sufficient to fix cups dependencies (move poppler[utils] from 
COMMON_DEPEND to PDEPEND) and problem solved.
If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless.

-- 
regards
MM

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 5 March 2010 21:51, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com> wrote:
> poppler[utils] are just pdfto*sth converters, and they're most likely pure
> runtime depedencies for net-print/cups. Could someone from printing herd
> verify?
> If so, then it's sufficient to fix cups dependencies (move poppler[utils] from
> COMMON_DEPEND to PDEPEND) and problem solved.

From looking at the cups ebuild there is a configure option, so I don't
think it's that straightforward, but there might be a solution here.

> If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless.

We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you
are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to
our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe
the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split
up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless.
>
> We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you
> are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to
> our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe
> the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split
> up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing.
>

These kind of pot-shots at Mart and the GNOME team are not welcome.
Please desist from making such unproductive statements. This is
precisely how flames begin, and this thread already has too much
heated argument going on.


-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Ben de Groot]

On 6 March 2010 10:11, Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless.
>>
>> We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you
>> are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to
>> our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe
>> the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split
>> up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing.
>>
>
> These kind of pot-shots at Mart and the GNOME team are not welcome.
> Please desist from making such unproductive statements. This is
> precisely how flames begin, and this thread already has too much
> heated argument going on.

I'm sorry, it's just rubbing me the wrong way that many people here
assume that the best solution is to split poppler again, while not even
looking at other possible solutions. But let's try to be more constructive
instead.

Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really
needed at compile time?

The same for cups: can we make poppler a PDEPEND? Maciej, did
you get any further with looking into that?

And how about splitting cups, as Pacho mentioned, so that gtk+
would only need the lib?

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really
> needed at compile time?
>

cups is definitely needed at compile-time

> The same for cups: can we make poppler a PDEPEND? Maciej, did
> you get any further with looking into that?
>

From what I can see in cups-1.3.11, pdftops is purely a runtime
dependency. The configure flags enable code that doesn't need pdftops
at compile-time. Infact, poppler[utils] is in pure RDEPEND to reflect
that. So in total, I think it can be moved to PDEPEND.

This change should be made to all ebuilds; not just the latest ~arch
since people do install stable ;p


-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Maciej Mrozowski]

On Saturday 06 of March 2010 18:05:20 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really
> > needed at compile time?
> 
> cups is definitely needed at compile-time
> 
> > The same for cups: can we make poppler a PDEPEND? Maciej, did
> > you get any further with looking into that?
> 
> From what I can see in cups-1.3.11, pdftops is purely a runtime
> dependency. The configure flags enable code that doesn't need pdftops
> at compile-time. Infact, poppler[utils] is in pure RDEPEND to reflect
> that. So in total, I think it can be moved to PDEPEND.

Apart from PDEPEND, one change needed as well in cups ebuilds:
--with-pdftops pdftops
needs to be replaced with
--with-pdftops=/usr/bin/pdftops

as otherwise it will fail during configure phase (giving absolute path 
disables autodetection)

cups can use either poppler or ghostscript as pdf-to-ps filter, so given the 
fact that ghostscript is already a dep of cups, maybe --with-pdftops=gs could 
be used instead to avoid poppler dependency completely, but that's up to cups 
maintainers to determine whether it's safe/desired.

So it's all simple, all this fuzz was unnecessary.
Btw, do we still have active printing herd?

-- 
regards
MM

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com> schrieb:

Hi,

> Apart from PDEPEND, one change needed as well in cups ebuilds:
> --with-pdftops pdftops
> needs to be replaced with
> --with-pdftops=/usr/bin/pdftops
> 
> as otherwise it will fail during configure phase (giving absolute path 
> disables autodetection)

Hardcodig a pathname is not a good idea, IMHO.
If ./configure really insists on autodetection when given name is
not absolute, we should fix the source ;-p

> cups can use either poppler or ghostscript as pdf-to-ps filter, 
> so given the fact that ghostscript is already a dep of cups, 
> maybe --with-pdftops=gs could be used instead to avoid poppler 
> dependency completely, but that's up to cups maintainers to 
> determine whether it's safe/desired.

hmm, does it _really_ need gs, even when pdftops is used ?

maybe we could move out this whole issue to an wrapper script
(configurable via eselect) ?


cu
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 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> schrieb:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really
> > needed at compile time?
> >
> 
> cups is definitely needed at compile-time

Does anyone know what exactly for ?
Didnt have the time for an deeper investigation, but if an widget
toolkit requires an printing service, something really strange
is happening, IMHO ... ;-o


cu
-- 
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 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
> * Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> schrieb:
>> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really
>> > needed at compile time?
>> >
>>
>> cups is definitely needed at compile-time
>
> Does anyone know what exactly for ?
> Didnt have the time for an deeper investigation, but if an widget
> toolkit requires an printing service, something really strange
> is happening, IMHO ... ;-o
>

Download the gtk+ tarball and take a peek inside ./modules/printbackends/cups

You'll find your answer there.

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> schrieb:

> > Does anyone know what exactly for ?
> > Didnt have the time for an deeper investigation, but if an widget
> > toolkit requires an printing service, something really strange
> > is happening, IMHO ... ;-o
> >
> 
> Download the gtk+ tarball and take a peek inside ./modules/printbackends/cups
> 
> You'll find your answer there.

Yes, sometimes answers you'd even wouldn't like to know ;-o

Folks, these gtk guys are on bad drugs (well, that's not sucha
new enlightenment ;-o) ...

a) gtk-printer backends are separate *shared* libraries, which
   are loaded somewhere at runtime. absolutely no need to ship
   and build them within the gtk+ tree
 
b) the whole gtk-printer api might be a nice thing (even i just
   have a dozen of better solutions at the tip of my head ;-o),
   but I can't see any technical reasons for having that all
   within a widget toolkit, instead of a separate library.


hmm, time for a fork ? ;-)


cu
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
	http://patches.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 5 March 2010 21:51, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless.
>
> We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you
> are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to
> our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe
> the cups ebuild instead.

There's nothing wrong with back-tracking on decisions if they seem to
cause problems. For instance, the mozilla herd has done a lot of
flip-flop on the system/internal sqlite issue, and we explained the
reasons to our users[1] and they agreed that it was useful, and a good
decision.

If it turns out there is no easier way of properly fixing this, we may
have to split poppler-utils out from poppler. In this regard, I like
how people like Maciej are spending efforts to solve the problem in
new ways (PDEPEND, etc)

1. http://is.gd/9O3k2

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> schrieb:

> If it turns out there is no easier way of properly fixing this, 
> we may have to split poppler-utils out from poppler. 

ACK. Having separate packages for public libraries and utils
which just happen to use these libs should be the default case.
Not just because of circular deps - which, in 99.99% have 
absolutely _no_ technical reason, beside certain people's mental 
lazyness (at least that's what my about 20yrs swe experience 
shows up ;-o) - but also a matter of clean sw design.

This should start at the source, so if upstream doesnt want to
fix this, let's fork. (i'm hereby volunteering as maintainer).


cu

PS: please no "we're not debian"-flamewars ;-o
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
	http://patches.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Nirbheek Chauhan]

Why are you replying to a thread that has already been resolved? Please stop.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
> * Nirbheek Chauhan <nirbheek@gentoo.org> schrieb:
>
>> If it turns out there is no easier way of properly fixing this,
>> we may have to split poppler-utils out from poppler.
>
> ACK. Having separate packages for public libraries and utils
> which just happen to use these libs should be the default case.
> Not just because of circular deps - which, in 99.99% have
> absolutely _no_ technical reason, beside certain people's mental
> lazyness (at least that's what my about 20yrs swe experience
> shows up ;-o) - but also a matter of clean sw design.
>
> This should start at the source, so if upstream doesnt want to
> fix this, let's fork. (i'm hereby volunteering as maintainer).
>
>
> cu
>
> PS: please no "we're not debian"-flamewars ;-o
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
>        http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
>  Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
>        http://patches.metux.de/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>



-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Pacho Ramos]

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El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 22:06 +0100, Ben de Groot escribió:
> 
> > If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless.
> 
> We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you
> are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to
> our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe
> the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split
> up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing.
> 
> Cheers,

I think that it will be easy to explain users that we *need* to split
poppler and poppler-utils to prevent circular dependencies.

About splitting others... well, sometime ago I saw that cups is being
split in Arch (having cups and libcups) when trying to investigate how
to deal with avahi -> gtk+ -> cups -> avahi circular dep problems (bug
222601), but I don't know if it could help with this case and how much
work would it require :-/

Best regards

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> schrieb:

> Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split up their package... 

Actually, that would be a big step forward ...


cu
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt    ==   metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
 	http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce
 Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
	http://patches.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------