From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1My6im-0003kf-ND for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:29:04 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EE35E0837; Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:29:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from tommyserver.de (unknown [85.14.198.50]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F7CE0837 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:29:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.178.22] (Q4455.q.pppool.de [89.53.68.85]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tommyserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6346840E4E3 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:29:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4AD5FC40.60209@gentoo.org> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:28:48 +0200 From: Thomas Sachau Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] openrc-0.5.1 arrived in the tree References: <200910091957.09193.zzam@gentoo.org> <8b4c83ad0910100622u502a69bdy6a9aaca18304cd48@mail.gmail.com> <200910102230.07124.zzam@gentoo.org> <200910131823.39417.hwoarang@gentoo.org> <20091013181618.GA7940@linux1> <4AD4E951.8020606@avtomatika.com> <20091013191741.GA8178@linux1> <4AD4F495.5060605@avtomatika.com> <4AD4E907.5060405@gentoo.org> <20091013163052.11d25cec@angelstorm> In-Reply-To: <20091013163052.11d25cec@angelstorm> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=211CA2D4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1F3F6CA2E8E1597547DD4481" X-Archives-Salt: 4bcd091b-f695-4c06-abe3-4aa6452621d2 X-Archives-Hash: 10205c8a453bd389608ebde9742dba4e This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1F3F6CA2E8E1597547DD4481 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joshua Saddler schrieb: > On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:54:31 +0200 > Thomas Sachau wrote: >> I disagree in this place. ~arch is called testing because it actually = is >> about TESTING new versions and packages. You should expect problems an= d you >> should be able to recover from them and you should be able to use bugz= illa. >> Else i suggest you move to a stable arch instead. >> >> Your arguments could make sense, if it would be about the stable tree,= but >> forcing the testing tree to be a second stable tree, just with newer p= ackage >> versions isnt our goal nor does it help anyone. >=20 > I'm going to pick on your email for this: you're not alone in your feel= ings, but yours is the most convenient email to reply to. :) >=20 > "You should expect problems and you should be able to recover from them= =2E" >=20 > You're right! You're so right that I'm going to go and completely expun= ge the OpenRC Migration guide from CVS, because users don't need document= ation on how to make the change! They should already know that there "wil= l be problems," so we don't need to tell them which *specific* problems t= hose will be. Right? Right. >=20 > And since they should already "be able to recover from them," there's n= o need to list step-by-step instructions on making the change or dealing = with complications, since they're supposed to already know that. I don't = know how, but surely not by reading some silly guide! Guides are for n00b= s! ~arch is for elite hax0rs who already know everything about OpenRC's i= nternals. And if they don't know what they're doing, then they shouldn't = be running ~arch packages, so let's presume to tell them what we think *t= heir* needs are. We're right. >=20 > And we certainly don't want them testing something if there's a GUIDE f= or it, I mean, sheesh! That's like asking them to help out. No, no, we wa= nt our users to come crawling to US, through the festering, fetid sekrit = corridors of our labyrinthine bugzilla, to join us in our even more sekri= t rituals around the "Status whiteboard." >=20 > * * * >=20 > All that to say, Tommy (et al), is that the idea of expecting users to = magically know everything and not to offer any documentation *in advance*= . . . is a silly idea. Good lord, can you imagine the shitstorm the X11 = team would have gone through if they'd tried *that* without first writing= up xserver 1.5 and 1.6 migration guides?! Did i tell you, that you or anyone else it not allowed to write documenta= tion? Did i say anything about "documentation is not needed at all"? I just said that people, who = want to TEST the latest versions should be prepared to get until then unknown problems. If you know those problems before they are known, feel free to write docs= and tell people (+upstream and maintainers) about them. In addition, for moving something to stable, some news item, upgrade guid= e or other sort of docs might be needed. I never wrote something against this part. But if you re= ally want to require information about unknown bugs before they happen and want to work with T= ESTING tree as it would be STABLE tree, then you really mixed something up. Btw: When did the X11 team write the upgrade guides for xorg-server-1.5/1= =2E6? Some time relative to introduction of those versions into TESTING tree are enough. In an ideal world with every dev knowing everything and having unfinite t= ime, we could maybe require TESTING tree to be fully documented. Until then, i prefer having a packag= e in TESTING instead of not being able to use it at all since noone wants to add it. --=20 Thomas Sachau Gentoo Linux Developer --------------enig1F3F6CA2E8E1597547DD4481 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (GNU/Linux) iJwEAQEKAAYFAkrV/EsACgkQG7kqcTWJkGdqbgP9Gf1+iF9Qra4zqtwGvBkCk8ci cTM+0CwDlconB4jSCDcnS3IaQjZkiltiFBE4pqZmUgKdJNKuSetTkxAe0YwexzhZ OYnGEUNYRLBQ3Ft4smP7jSHvVXI/JlOzj07KgqFFOO5Me/XH9wR6g0SF4gYtgVWj e2dAiIYsfvODP+vHXT8= =1A+d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1F3F6CA2E8E1597547DD4481--