[gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

Hello,

This is a request for comments on a new project,
namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/

The web page doesn't really explain all the background
needed to understand why would anyone want to start such
a project. However this forum thread might be more
clarifying:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html

The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
that wander around the LQ forums, and to create a Gentoo
subforum at LQ like many other distros do. However, eventually
the support might be extended to other places if there's a
need and enough human power to do so.

Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Philip Webb]

090519 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> This is a request for comments on a new project "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>   http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
> this forum thread might be more clarifying:
>   http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
> that wander around the LQ forums and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ

What is "LQ" ?

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Justin Lecher]

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Philip Webb schrieb:
> 090519 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>> This is a request for comments on a new project "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>>   http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>> this forum thread might be more clarifying:
>>   http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>> that wander around the LQ forums and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ
> 
> What is "LQ" ?
> 
LinuxQuestions
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, May 19, 2009 20:15, Philip Webb wrote:
> 090519 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> This is a request for comments on a new project "Gentoo Support
>> Everywhere".
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>> this forum thread might be more clarifying:
>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>> that wander around the LQ forums and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ
>
> What is "LQ" ?

 LinuxQuestions.org, the forums more concretely. I've been
answering Gentoo questions for a while.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Philip Webb]

090519 Justin Lecher wrote:
> Philip Webb schrieb:
>> 090519 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>>> that wander around the LQ forums and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ
> > What is "LQ" ?
> LinuxQuestions

What is "LinuxQuestions" ? -- really, if you want help & support,
you have to explain what you're talking about.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Justin Lecher]

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Philip Webb schrieb:
> 090519 Justin Lecher wrote:
>> Philip Webb schrieb:
>>> 090519 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>>>> that wander around the LQ forums and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ
>>> What is "LQ" ?
>> LinuxQuestions
> 
> What is "LinuxQuestions" ? -- really, if you want help & support,
> you have to explain what you're talking about.
> 

LQ == LinuxQuestions

which is the name of a prominent site LinuxQuestions.org, which hosts a forum for linux related question.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, May 19, 2009 21:01, Philip Webb wrote:
> 090519 Justin Lecher wrote:
>
>> Philip Webb schrieb:
>>
>>> 090519 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>>
>>>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>>>> that wander around the LQ forums and to create a Gentoo subforum at
>>>> LQ
>>>>
>>> What is "LQ" ?
>>>
>> LinuxQuestions
>>
>
> What is "LinuxQuestions" ? -- really, if you want help & support,
> you have to explain what you're talking about.

Did you read the project page at all?

linuxquestions.org, a site, more concretely their forums.

And I am not seeking support or help (and this wouldn't be
the place for that either). I offer it there as I already
said on my other posts. This is just an RFC for a new project.
Not a support question.

I hope it makes sense.
-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This is a request for comments on a new project,
> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>
> The web page doesn't really explain all the background
> needed to understand why would anyone want to start such
> a project. However this forum thread might be more
> clarifying:
>
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>
> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
> that wander around the LQ forums, and to create a Gentoo
> subforum at LQ like many other distros do. However, eventually
> the support might be extended to other places if there's a
> need and enough human power to do so.
>
> Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.
>
>   

From my understanding, LQ doesn't have a Gentoo subforum because Gentoo
already has its own forum.  Why should Gentoo have two forums?  I must
also say the the Gentoo forum is more than adequate for help.

Also, the link to your thread does not exist.  I get "The topic or post
you requested does not exist".

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2009.05.19 20:52, Dale wrote:
[snip]
> 
> From my understanding, LQ doesn't have a Gentoo subforum because
> Gentoo
> already has its own forum.  Why should Gentoo have two forums?  I 
> must
> also say the the Gentoo forum is more than adequate for help.
> 
> Also, the link to your thread does not exist.  I get "The topic or
> post
> you requested does not exist".
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 


Dale,

LQ does not have a Gentoo subforum because Gentoo does not yet support 
such a subforum.

I'm sure that the Gentoo Forums are more than adequate for the users 
that find their way to them but that LQ gets Gentoo related questions 
shows that there is a demand for support there, even if its to post a 
link to Gentoo documentaion or posts on the Gentoo Forums.

The Gentoo subforum on LQ would help to collect the posts in one place.

- -- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySeagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
treecleaners
trustees
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, May 19, 2009 21:52, Dale wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> This is a request for comments on a new project,
>> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>>
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>>
>>
>> The web page doesn't really explain all the background
>> needed to understand why would anyone want to start such a project.
>> However this forum thread might be more
>> clarifying:
>>
>>
>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>>
>>
>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>> that wander around the LQ forums, and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ
>> like many other distros do. However, eventually the support might be
>> extended to other places if there's a need and enough human power to do
>> so.
>>
>> Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.
>>
>>
>>
>
> From my understanding, LQ doesn't have a Gentoo subforum because Gentoo
> already has its own forum.  Why should Gentoo have two forums?  I must also
> say the the Gentoo forum is more than adequate for help.

No, they don't have a Gentoo subforum because they ask for some
kind of semi-official support from the distro so it doesn't die
starved without responses within two weeks of being opened.

That's what this is about :)

This is not about having two forums or segregating
the support. This is *a reality*. People already post there.
We can choose to give some support or to ignore it. But that's
not going to change the fact that they *do post there*, it
doesn't matter if we like that or not. The universe is as it
is regardless of what we think that would be ideal.

I've been answering gentoo stuff in there for months now,
this project is only a backing so LQ can feel that we care about
that and give us a subforum. Which in turn will ease my job
supporting people there. Even if it's just to tell them
"I can't help, please, register at forums.gentoo.org and
ask there".

> Also, the link to your thread does not exist.  I get "The topic or post
> you requested does not exist".

The project should be viewable. The forum post will only be
visible for mods, admins and devs I guess, and only when loged in·
There's nothing I can do about that.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Robert Buchholz]

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On Tuesday 19 May 2009, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 21:52, Dale wrote:
> > Also, the link to your thread does not exist.  I get "The topic or
> > post you requested does not exist".
>
> The project should be viewable. The forum post will only be
> visible for mods, admins and devs I guess, and only when loged in·
> There's nothing I can do about that.

I get the same error (logged in). I don't know why it is restricted, but 
since you announced the thread as containing the rationale for the 
project, it was rather hard to follow the reasons. Thanks for stating 
them in the mail I am replying to.

Do we need this to be a top-level project? I imagine this might live as 
a sub-project of the Forums TLP.


Robert

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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Tue, May 19, 2009 23:42, Robert Buchholz wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 May 2009, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 21:52, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> Also, the link to your thread does not exist.  I get "The topic or
>>> post you requested does not exist".
>>
>> The project should be viewable. The forum post will only be
>> visible for mods, admins and devs I guess, and only when loged in·
>> There's nothing I can do about that.
>>
>
> I get the same error (logged in). I don't know why it is restricted, but
> since you announced the thread as containing the rationale for the project,
> it was rather hard to follow the reasons. Thanks for stating them in the
> mail I am replying to.

I don't know what the problem is with the forum thread, but it's
there, I swear :) Anyway you are welcome. If you have questions
just ask. That's what the RFC is for after all.


> Do we need this to be a top-level project? I imagine this might live as
> a sub-project of the Forums TLP.

No idea. I am new to this whole project thing. I guess that the
correct question to ask is whether the forum project team cares at
all about this (I guess the answer would be no, at least not as a
project, though some individuals might care).

With that in mind I doubt they will be willing to have yet another
thing to worry about. But I can't speak on behalf of them of
course.

I really don't care if this is a top level project or a subproject.
So, what do people think about this?


By the way, thanks for the comments. :)
-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[AllenJB]

Could someone who CAN see the forum thread please post the content to 
the list so that everyone can see it please? (Alternatively, perhaps 
post how to get to it from forums.gentoo.org manually)

AllenJB

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Roy Bamford wrote:
> On 2009.05.19 20:52, Dale wrote:
> [snip]
> > From my understanding, LQ doesn't have a Gentoo subforum because
> > Gentoo
> > already has its own forum.  Why should Gentoo have two forums?  I
> > must
> > also say the the Gentoo forum is more than adequate for help.
>
> > Also, the link to your thread does not exist.  I get "The topic or
> > post
> > you requested does not exist".
>
> > Dale
>
> > :-)  :-)
>
>
>
> Dale,
>
> LQ does not have a Gentoo subforum because Gentoo does not yet support
> such a subforum.
>
> I'm sure that the Gentoo Forums are more than adequate for the users
> that find their way to them but that LQ gets Gentoo related questions
> shows that there is a demand for support there, even if its to post a
> link to Gentoo documentaion or posts on the Gentoo Forums.
>
> The Gentoo subforum on LQ would help to collect the posts in one place.
>

That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?

I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is
more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure
they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Duncan]

Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> posted
f7f0028fed7284065d82b976e721ec3a.squirrel@jesgue.homelinux.org, excerpted
below, on  Tue, 19 May 2009 23:57:38 +0200:

> I don't know what the problem is with the forum thread, but it's there,
> I swear :)

Have you double-checked for a typo?  I can't see the thread either, 
getting a does not exist error, not the unauthorized or locked or 
whatever error I'd expect if it were that, so I expect it's a typo.

Here's the link as originally posted.  Please double-check.  Or, as 
someone else suggested, tell us how to navigate there (which forum, 
subject, date posted for thread origin, author, etc).  I'd have tried 
that if I knew where to look, but there's not enough info in the post as-
is to do so.

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:40, Duncan wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> posted
> f7f0028fed7284065d82b976e721ec3a.squirrel@jesgue.homelinux.org, excerpted
> below, on  Tue, 19 May 2009 23:57:38 +0200:
>
>> I don't know what the problem is with the forum thread, but it's there,
>>  I swear :)
>>
>
> Have you double-checked for a typo?  I can't see the thread either,
> getting a does not exist error, not the unauthorized or locked or whatever
> error I'd expect if it were that, so I expect it's a typo.
>
> Here's the link as originally posted.  Please double-check.  Or, as
> someone else suggested, tell us how to navigate there (which forum,
> subject, date posted for thread origin, author, etc).  I'd have tried that
> if I knew where to look, but there's not enough info in the post as- is to
> do so.
>
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html

I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
since linuxquestions is in the title.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 01:00:34AM +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> > http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
> subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
> since linuxquestions is in the title.
My dev forums account can't access that subforum, nor the post.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[AllenJB]

Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:40, Duncan wrote:
>> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> posted
>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
> 
> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
> subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
> since linuxquestions is in the title.
> 

Well there's the problem. Why have you chosen to put it in a closed 
forum? Why not put it in, for example, Gentoo Chat, where everyone can 
see it?

Stop posting "it works for me" and post something that will definitely 
work for everyone please.

AllenJB

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:37, Dale wrote:
> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
> forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
> answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?

You mean like all the rest of big distros? :p All the the distros
there have some kind of support in LQ, otherwise they wouldn't be
allowed to have a subforum. All of them have also their own forums.

Like it or not, LQ is the first place where a newcomer goes.


> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is more
> than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure they
> can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol

Probably, still I am of the kind who fights before surrendering
just because someone else consider something a lost cause.

We could go rounds for days with this same argument. Just because
one thing is enough or more than sufficient it doesn't mean that
all the persons in the world are going to accept that or discover
it at the first glance. As said, that I answer things about
gentoo there is not open for discussion: it is a fact.

I just want to ease my job there.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Mark Bateman]

Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj <at> terra.es> writes:

> 
> 
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:40, Duncan wrote:
> > Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj <at> terra.es> posted
> > f7f0028fed7284065d82b976e721ec3a.squirrel <at> jesgue.homelinux.org, 
> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
> subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
> since linuxquestions is in the title.
> 

Umm *only* Forum Moderators and forum admins can view that sekrit 
section of the forums. Its not even linked for anyone else

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 01:05, AllenJB wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:40, Duncan wrote:
>>
>>> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> posted
>>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>>>
>>
>> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
>>  subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
>> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
>> since linuxquestions is in the title.
>>
>
> Well there's the problem. Why have you chosen to put it in a closed
> forum? Why not put it in, for example, Gentoo Chat, where everyone can see
> it?
>
> Stop posting "it works for me" and post something that will definitely
> work for everyone please.
>
> AllenJB

Sorry, but I thought that developers could access that subforum.
I have moved it to Gentoo Chat, I hope it's fine now.

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 01:11, Mark Bateman wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj <at> terra.es> writes:
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:40, Duncan wrote:
>>
>>> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj <at> terra.es> posted
>>> f7f0028fed7284065d82b976e721ec3a.squirrel <at> jesgue.homelinux.org,
>> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
>>  subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
>> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
>> since linuxquestions is in the title.
>>
>
> Umm *only* Forum Moderators and forum admins can view that sekrit
> section of the forums. Its not even linked for anyone else
>
>
>
>
>
>
Check now, I've moved it on request.
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Duncan]

"Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> posted
robbat2.20090519T230236.268745076Z@orbis-terrarum.net, excerpted below, on
 Tue, 19 May 2009 16:03:29 -0700:

> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 01:00:34AM +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>> > http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
>> subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
>> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
>> since linuxquestions is in the title.
> My dev forums account can't access that subforum, nor the post.

The moderators subforum would explain it here.  It would have been nice 
to know that in the beginning, but maybe you (Jesús) didn't realize how 
restricted that subforum was, or perhaps more likely did but just weren't 
thinking about it.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Duncan]

Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> posted pan.2009.05.19.23.18.21@cox.net,
excerpted below, on  Tue, 19 May 2009 23:18:21 +0000:

> The moderators subforum

[I see it's moved.  Thanks.]

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 19 May 2009 22:40:44 +0000 (UTC)
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es> posted
> f7f0028fed7284065d82b976e721ec3a.squirrel@jesgue.homelinux.org, excerpted
> below, on  Tue, 19 May 2009 23:57:38 +0200:
> 
> > I don't know what the problem is with the forum thread, but it's there,
> > I swear :)
> 
> Have you double-checked for a typo?  I can't see the thread either, 
> getting a does not exist error, not the unauthorized or locked or 
> whatever error I'd expect if it were that, so I expect it's a typo.
> 
> Here's the link as originally posted.  Please double-check.  Or, as 
> someone else suggested, tell us how to navigate there (which forum, 
> subject, date posted for thread origin, author, etc).  I'd have tried 
> that if I knew where to look, but there's not enough info in the post as-
> is to do so.
> 
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
> 

It's there for me if I should see 
Gentoo subforum in LinuxQuestions.org
and a poll.

> -- 
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
> 
> 

Regards,
Ferris
--
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Mart Raudsepp]

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On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 01:10 +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:37, Dale wrote:
> > That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
> > forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
> > answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
> 
> You mean like all the rest of big distros? :p All the the distros
> there have some kind of support in LQ, otherwise they wouldn't be
> allowed to have a subforum. All of them have also their own forums.

Curious, do they also actively point people in their LQ subforums to
their official forums when they get the chance?

> Like it or not, LQ is the first place where a newcomer goes.

-- 
Mart Raudsepp
Gentoo Developer
Mail: leio@gentoo.org
Weblog: http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/leio

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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:37, Dale wrote:
>   
>> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
>> forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
>> answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
>>     
>
> You mean like all the rest of big distros? :p All the the distros
> there have some kind of support in LQ, otherwise they wouldn't be
> allowed to have a subforum. All of them have also their own forums.
>
> Like it or not, LQ is the first place where a newcomer goes.
>   

Actually, the first place I went to was justlinux.  Rest in peace
mdwatts.  It was a while later that I found LQ. 

>
>   
>> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
>> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is more
>> than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure they
>> can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol
>>     
>
> Probably, still I am of the kind who fights before surrendering
> just because someone else consider something a lost cause.
>
> We could go rounds for days with this same argument. Just because
> one thing is enough or more than sufficient it doesn't mean that
> all the persons in the world are going to accept that or discover
> it at the first glance. As said, that I answer things about
> gentoo there is not open for discussion: it is a fact.
>
> I just want to ease my job there.
>
>   

I don't see how doing double the work will benefit anyone.  Its a lot
easier to have one forum than it is to have two forums.  I just think
the Gentoo folks would be better to concentrate on what we have than to
be spreading more work around for the same people.  Its not like they
don't have enough work already.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 01:11, Mark Bateman wrote:
>   
>> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj <at> terra.es> writes:
>>
>>
>>     
>>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:40, Duncan wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj <at> terra.es> posted
>>>> f7f0028fed7284065d82b976e721ec3a.squirrel <at> jesgue.homelinux.org,
>>>>         
>>> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the "Moderators"
>>>  subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
>>> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
>>> since linuxquestions is in the title.
>>>
>>>       
>> Umm *only* Forum Moderators and forum admins can view that sekrit
>> section of the forums. Its not even linked for anyone else
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
> Check now, I've moved it on request.
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>
>   

I still get this:

"The topic or post you requested does not exist".  I am logged in.

Oh well.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 01:18, Duncan wrote:
> "Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> posted
> robbat2.20090519T230236.268745076Z@orbis-terrarum.net, excerpted below, on
>  Tue, 19 May 2009 16:03:29 -0700:
>
>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 01:00:34AM +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>
>>>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>>>>
>>> I've checked it lots of times, and it's there. It's in the
>>> "Moderators"
>>> subforum, and it's near to the top of the list on that subforum so if
>>> you can access that subforum you shouldn't have a problem finding it,
>>>  since linuxquestions is in the title.
>> My dev forums account can't access that subforum, nor the post.
>>
>
> The moderators subforum would explain it here.  It would have been nice
> to know that in the beginning, but maybe you (Jesús) didn't realize how
> restricted that subforum was, or perhaps more likely did but just weren't
>  thinking about it.

I was aware that it's a restricted forum, but somehow I think I remember
that devs could post there. Obviously, I was either hallucinating or
maybe some of them can, and some of them can't.

That was all the confusion for which I apologize. :)



-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 02:18, Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-05-20 at 01:10 +0200, Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 00:37, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
>>> forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
>>> answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
>>
>> You mean like all the rest of big distros? :p All the the distros
>> there have some kind of support in LQ, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed
>> to have a subforum. All of them have also their own forums.
>
> Curious, do they also actively point people in their LQ subforums to
> their official forums when they get the chance?

To the official distro forums? If the answer required that
then yes. Just like you point at any other random tutorial
or mailing list based solution on the internet. Some people
have their distro resources linked on their signature as well.

I've had a link to the handbook there since I registered.
I've also pointed people to forums.gentoo.org when needed.
No problem with that.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 06:23, Dale wrote:
>
> I still get this:
>
>
> "The topic or post you requested does not exist".  I am logged in.


An administrator moved it back while I was asleep. I shouldn't
have moved anything outside the mod forum without asking first.

However all the reasoning has already been exposed on this thread.
The rest is discussion on how to go about forming the project, and
some other technical speech.



-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 05:33, Dale wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
> I don't see how doing double the work will benefit anyone.  Its a lot
> easier to have one forum than it is to have two forums.  I just think the
> Gentoo folks would be better to concentrate on what we have than to
> be spreading more work around for the same people.  Its not like they don't
> have enough work already.
>


What I don't get about your argument is how to you think that
banning the rest of the world from our minds and cutting
all the relations with the rest of forums in the Earth is
going to be any more beneficial for Gentoo that working in
collaboration with them.

It's like a cat who hides his head and thinks that the rest
of the world has disappeared. Which isn't true. There are lots
of gentoo related forums around and they will be there and
people will use them no matter how bad you think that is, Dale.

Some links that desultory kindly handed me are these:

http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/gentoo-linux-help/
http://www.gentoo-quebec.org/forum/
https://www.hamiltonshells.ca/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=8
http://www.gentoo.fr/forum/index.php
http://www.gentooforum.de/
http://www.gentoo-forum.nl/

But there are lots more. I am already handing my time there,
and neither you nor Gentoo as a project can tell my what to do
with my time. So I will continue giving support there, even if
you or anyone else think that I am harming Gentoo by not
concentrating my effort into a single point. I can do it on
behalf of Gentoo and have an easier time, or I can do it
on behalf of me and have a harder time. But I'll do it
nonetheless. As said, this is not open for discussion, this
is the reality, at least until the G foundation can control
my mind. Period. :)

So I really don't understand your argument. I will not be
"harming" Gentoo anymore that I've benn "harming" it for a
long long time now. :D

No one has to join or worry about this at all if s/he doesn't
care so I have no idea what extra work are you talking about.
No one has to worry about me or the gse project either.

Regards and a nice day! :)
-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Nandeep Mali]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:07 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is
> more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure
> they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol

As a user I'd say that's ignoring us (the users) blatantly. What's the
harm in having it at multiple places? LQ is one of the sites that
comes up first in Google Search. I have found solution for many of my
queries related to other distros there. Agreed that finding Gentoo
Forums is easy, but that doesn't mean that you can expect every user
to go there. A reply like mine would usually be countered with: Gentoo
users are assumed to be intelligent enough to find this forum. lol

> I don't see how doing double the work will benefit anyone.  Its a lot
> easier to have one forum than it is to have two forums.  I just think
> the Gentoo folks would be better to concentrate on what we have than to
> be spreading more work around for the same people.  Its not like they
> don't have enough work already.

This is also wrong. As I said before having a presence in multiple
areas is just plain helpful and not redundant. Search engines are the
first tool that a user would usually use and getting more results is
nothing but helpful. And as Jesús put it he is volunteering to do it,
so I don't see what is the problem here? If the sub-forum does come up
I am sure other people would volunteer as well. Nobody is forcing
anyone to do anything here.

I wish some people would start seeing it from user's perspective as
well. And volunteers who want to help like this should be encouraged.
Frankly speaking replies like this have discouraged many users I have
personally known. And it takes great courage to post to Gentoo ML in
fear of such replies. Again and again its virtually stated that: "user
is dumb unless they do it the way I want them to do it or the way I
think it is right". I take back my words if Gentoo is supposed to be a
developer only distro.

Anyway, again from a user's perspective, Gentoo also has its share of
great minds, awesome documentation and some friendly and nice folks.
:)

Regards
Nandeep

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Nandeep Mali wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:07 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>   
>> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
>> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is
>> more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure
>> they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol
>>     
>
> As a user I'd say that's ignoring us (the users) blatantly. What's the
> harm in having it at multiple places? LQ is one of the sites that
> comes up first in Google Search. I have found solution for many of my
> queries related to other distros there. Agreed that finding Gentoo
> Forums is easy, but that doesn't mean that you can expect every user
> to go there. A reply like mine would usually be countered with: Gentoo
> users are assumed to be intelligent enough to find this forum. lol
>   

Just to be clear here, I am a user myself.  I'm not a dev.  My opinion
is a user opinion.

>   
>> I don't see how doing double the work will benefit anyone.  Its a lot
>> easier to have one forum than it is to have two forums.  I just think
>> the Gentoo folks would be better to concentrate on what we have than to
>> be spreading more work around for the same people.  Its not like they
>> don't have enough work already.
>>     
>
> This is also wrong. As I said before having a presence in multiple
> areas is just plain helpful and not redundant. Search engines are the
> first tool that a user would usually use and getting more results is
> nothing but helpful. And as Jesús put it he is volunteering to do it,
> so I don't see what is the problem here? If the sub-forum does come up
> I am sure other people would volunteer as well. Nobody is forcing
> anyone to do anything here.
>
> I wish some people would start seeing it from user's perspective as
> well. And volunteers who want to help like this should be encouraged.
> Frankly speaking replies like this have discouraged many users I have
> personally known. And it takes great courage to post to Gentoo ML in
> fear of such replies. Again and again its virtually stated that: "user
> is dumb unless they do it the way I want them to do it or the way I
> think it is right". I take back my words if Gentoo is supposed to be a
> developer only distro.
>
> Anyway, again from a user's perspective, Gentoo also has its share of
> great minds, awesome documentation and some friendly and nice folks.
> :)
>
> Regards
> Nandeep
>
>
>   

Since I am seeing this from a user perspective, my opinion stands.  I'm
not against them having a forum where ever people choose, I just don't
think Gentoo and devs should be required to support it.  They have
enough to deal with now.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 05:33, Dale wrote:
>   
>> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how doing double the work will benefit anyone.  Its a lot
>> easier to have one forum than it is to have two forums.  I just think the
>> Gentoo folks would be better to concentrate on what we have than to
>> be spreading more work around for the same people.  Its not like they don't
>> have enough work already.
>>
>>     
>
>
> What I don't get about your argument is how to you think that
> banning the rest of the world from our minds and cutting
> all the relations with the rest of forums in the Earth is
> going to be any more beneficial for Gentoo that working in
> collaboration with them.
>
> It's like a cat who hides his head and thinks that the rest
> of the world has disappeared. Which isn't true. There are lots
> of gentoo related forums around and they will be there and
> people will use them no matter how bad you think that is, Dale.
>
> Some links that desultory kindly handed me are these:
>
> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/gentoo-linux-help/
> http://www.gentoo-quebec.org/forum/
> https://www.hamiltonshells.ca/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=8
> http://www.gentoo.fr/forum/index.php
> http://www.gentooforum.de/
> http://www.gentoo-forum.nl/
>
> But there are lots more. I am already handing my time there,
> and neither you nor Gentoo as a project can tell my what to do
> with my time. So I will continue giving support there, even if
> you or anyone else think that I am harming Gentoo by not
> concentrating my effort into a single point. I can do it on
> behalf of Gentoo and have an easier time, or I can do it
> on behalf of me and have a harder time. But I'll do it
> nonetheless. As said, this is not open for discussion, this
> is the reality, at least until the G foundation can control
> my mind. Period. :)
>
> So I really don't understand your argument. I will not be
> "harming" Gentoo anymore that I've benn "harming" it for a
> long long time now. :D
>
> No one has to join or worry about this at all if s/he doesn't
> care so I have no idea what extra work are you talking about.
> No one has to worry about me or the gse project either.
>
> Regards and a nice day! :)
>   

But does Gentoo support those forums?  My point is, the people here,
devs in particular, have enough to do already.  Why add one more thing
for them to deal with?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 13:26, Dale wrote:
>
> But does Gentoo support those forums?  My point is, the people here,
> devs in particular, have enough to do already.  Why add one more thing for
> them to deal with?

Devs don't have to bother or even know about this at all.
The support will be limited within the possibilities of these
who want to offer it. The amount of support that LQ ask from
us is *more* than covered with what I and the other volunteers
can offer (it would be covered even with just me) If I founded
a project it's just because it's a way to make the rest of the
persons aware that the initiative exist, and because I like
official things when that's possible.

For the rest of people who just don't care about this, this
represent no change at all. In other words, this project will
only affect those who have any interest in it, the rest of devs
and people here can just ignore it as if it never existed.

We could argue that the sunrise project is bad because these devs
taking care of it should concentrate in portage instead, same
for gentoo-alt, to put just two random examples (I swear that I
feel no animosity against these projects at all :) ). But that's
pointless as I see it. This is open source, and everyone will
contribute wherever s/he wants, regardless of where you think
they should contribute.

By rejecting the gse project gentoo.forums.org will get no
extra time or support from me, and LQ will get no less either.

In the same lines, the fact that I support people at LQ is not
going to change the kind of support nor the quality of the support
that I give on our own forums.


-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Markos Chandras]

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On Wednesday 20 May 2009 14:24:11 Dale wrote:
> Since I am seeing this from a user perspective, my opinion stands.  I'm
> not against them having a forum where ever people choose, I just don't
> think Gentoo and devs should be required to support it.  They have
> enough to deal with now.
>
I ve always considered forums as a "user-to-user" communication interface. 
Users can contact developers via bugzilla. Rarely developers visit forums to 
help on bugs cause most of the "actual" bug are already on bugzilla. Most 
questions on forums are "user specific" issues that can be solved by other user 
advices

just my $2
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jeremy Olexa]

> Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.

(replying to random)

Look, there has been a whopping 6 developer comments on this thread - 
none of them opposed. This means to me that you should continue on with 
your plan. You are already a moderator of our forums, so get someone 
with cvs access (probably whomever committed 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/ ) to add more content to that page 
and make it official.

Like you said, you are already doing this anyway, so it isn't going to 
be "more work" for anyone.

Oh, and I would make this a subproject of the forums project too. It 
wouldn't be anymore work for the forums people and you can be the lead 
of GSE without involving the higher level project. It just makes sense, 
IMO, because forums and GSE are so closely related.

Long story short, "just do it"

-Jeremy

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 14:44, Jeremy Olexa wrote:
>

>> Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.
>>
>
> (replying to random)
>
>
> Look, there has been a whopping 6 developer comments on this thread -
> none of them opposed. This means to me that you should continue on with
> your plan. You are already a moderator of our forums, so get someone with
> cvs access (probably whomever committed http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
> ) to add more content to that page

That would be myself. More contents will be added as needed.
I will review the pages of other projects so I get a clearer
idea of what kind of info usually go into their pages.

Any idea is welcome of course.

> and make it official.

I've been following the specifications on the glep 39 for this
project. I don't know what else is needed. Any hints?

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0039.html#specification

> Like you said, you are already doing this anyway, so it isn't going to
> be "more work" for anyone.

That's what I am trying to make clear. Thanks.

> Oh, and I would make this a subproject of the forums project too. It
> wouldn't be anymore work for the forums people and you can be the lead of
> GSE without involving the higher level project. It just makes sense,
> IMO, because forums and GSE are so closely related.

I guess I should contact the forum project members about that.
If they agree I have no problem with gse being a subproject
since it makes some sense. I would be taking care of the gse
stuff of course, so they don't have to do any extra work or
something.

Thanks for your answer :)

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Hi,

Jesús Guerrero <i92guboj@terra.es>:
> I really don't care if this is a top level project or a subproject.
> So, what do people think about this?

 It is a good idea to reach out to our users.  So yes.

V-Li

-- 
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://gentoo.faulhammer.org/>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Petteri Räty]

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Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> This is a request for comments on a new project,
> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
> 

New projects must be announced via gentoo-dev-announce and I haven't see
a mail although project pages exist. Also I don't see how this thread
belonged to the -dev mailing list in the first place. Seems -project
material to me.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 18:43, Petteri Räty wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> This is a request for comments on a new project,
>> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>>
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>>
>>
>
> New projects must be announced via gentoo-dev-announce and I haven't see
> a mail although project pages exist. Also I don't see how this thread
> belonged to the -dev mailing list in the first place. Seems -project
> material to me.

Because that's what GLEP39 says, and I haven't found any more
official doc on it. Quoting it:

"Any dev may create a new project just by creating a new page (or, more
realistically, directory and page) in gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en and
sending a Request For Comments (RFC) e-mail to gentoo-dev."


So, these are the steps I've followed. As said, I am new to this
stuff.


-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Petteri Räty]

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Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 18:43, Petteri Räty wrote:
>> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a request for comments on a new project,
>>> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>>>
>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>>>
>>>
>> New projects must be announced via gentoo-dev-announce and I haven't see
>> a mail although project pages exist. Also I don't see how this thread
>> belonged to the -dev mailing list in the first place. Seems -project
>> material to me.
> 
> Because that's what GLEP39 says, and I haven't found any more
> official doc on it. Quoting it:
> 
> "Any dev may create a new project just by creating a new page (or, more
> realistically, directory and page) in gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en and
> sending a Request For Comments (RFC) e-mail to gentoo-dev."
> 
> 
> So, these are the steps I've followed. As said, I am new to this
> stuff.
> 
> 

Yeah I don't think the GLEPs have been active maintained for a while but
really need to something to that. I stress to new devs to think to use
gentoo-dev-announce for all important matters even if the docs don't
explicitly state it. Any way please also make a post to
gentoo-dev-announce to rectify the situation.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Josh Saddler]

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Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> This is a request for comments on a new project,
> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
> 
> The web page doesn't really explain all the background
> needed to understand why would anyone want to start such
> a project. However this forum thread might be more
> clarifying:
> 
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
> 
> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
> that wander around the LQ forums, and to create a Gentoo
> subforum at LQ like many other distros do. However, eventually
> the support might be extended to other places if there's a
> need and enough human power to do so.

You are of course free to put in work wherever you want to. This is
Gentoo. We're all about picking an itch and scratching it. I won't tell
you where to put your time or where not to put your time.

However, for the purposes of an actual project, I believe it's
considered essential that we own the infrastructure that project is
hosted on. All of our other projects (to my knowledge) are hosted on our
own infrastructure.

If we cannot properly administer a Gentoo resource, i.e. if we have to
go through unaffiliated intermediaries, then it should not be an
official Gentoo project. I don't believe having a spot in /proj/
designates a project as "official"; I think the actual working area
needs to be Gentoo-owned.

That being said, you and others are free to do the whole LQ and other
forums help; more power to you. But as I said, I don't think it should
be an official TLP (or subproject) as we do not have proper supervision
of external resources.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Alistair Bush]

Dale wrote:

>> The Gentoo subforum on LQ would help to collect the posts in one place.
>>
> 
> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
> forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
> answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
> 
> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is
> more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure
> they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol
> 

How about we ask for a subforum to be created with a BIG STICKY telling
it is better to ask support questions at forums.gentoo.org

Could it be possible that users don't know about f.g.o?  ( find it
highly unlikely actually)

Alistair

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 21:18, Josh Saddler wrote:
> However, for the purposes of an actual project, I believe it's
> considered essential that we own the infrastructure that project is hosted
> on. All of our other projects (to my knowledge) are hosted on our own
> infrastructure.
>
> If we cannot properly administer a Gentoo resource, i.e. if we have to
> go through unaffiliated intermediaries, then it should not be an official
> Gentoo project. I don't believe having a spot in /proj/
> designates a project as "official"; I think the actual working area needs
> to be Gentoo-owned.
>
> That being said, you and others are free to do the whole LQ and other
> forums help; more power to you. But as I said, I don't think it should be
> an official TLP (or subproject) as we do not have proper supervision of
> external resources.

Good point. However it all depends on the lenses you look
it through.

gse is meant to be more like devrel or userrel. We are not going
to be moderating those forums, and we don't have any authority
there at all. This foundation is needed as a way to link the
Gentoo community with another support communities where people
will eventually seek support about Gentoo.

How else could we establish an official relationship with other
external projects? Of course the thing has to get external at
some point. The other option is to encapsulate and live isolated
from the rest of the reality.

What we offer is that and support, and the only infrastructure
is the project itself and their members. It's very abstract, I
know, but such is the nature of the project.

You don't have to go thru intermediaries either. The project is
me and the rest of volunteers, and it exists independently of
LQ or any other concrete place. LQ is just a particular case
where we can be useful.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Dale]

Alistair Bush wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>
>   
>>> The Gentoo subforum on LQ would help to collect the posts in one place.
>>>
>>>       
>> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
>> forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
>> answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
>>
>> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
>> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is
>> more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure
>> they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol
>>
>>     
>
> How about we ask for a subforum to be created with a BIG STICKY telling
> it is better to ask support questions at forums.gentoo.org
>
> Could it be possible that users don't know about f.g.o?  ( find it
> highly unlikely actually)
>
> Alistair
>
>
>   

I'm not 100% against this.  I do like your idea a lot tho.  I have two
things that concern me but may not make sense to anyone else.

1:  Anyone remember the GUI installer?  I didn't think there was enough
people back then to support that "monster" either.  I liked the idea but
thought Gentoo would be better served by letting the devs concentrate on
better things and most likely more important things.  I feel about the
same way about this.  In the past week or so, I have seen discussions
about packages not having maintainers and other things that needs
attention but lack time or man power.  While Gentoo has come a VERY long
way in even the past few months, I would hate to see it get bogged down
with another project.  If it gets more projects than it can handle, the
"death of Gentoo" talk will start again.  I been here long enough to see
that a few times.

2:  I sort of like having basically one place to go for help.  The place
I go is Gentoo.  That includes the Gentoo mailing list and the Gentoo
forums.  If LQ has a forum, who is next, justlinux, then someone else
etc etc etc?  Am I and a lot of other people going to have to search
half a dozen websites to find a fix?  What if the answer to my question
is on a website I am not familiar with or know about?  There would be a
lot of duplication of threads across several sites and fixes would be
harder to find.   I am a member at justlinux, LQ and several other sites
and I on occasion help people on other sites but I don't go looking for
Gentoo fixes there. 

I'm not a dev by any means and what I say may not count for anything and
could be ignored if needed.  I have been using Gentoo since the old 1.4
days, even that was old when I got the CD, so I would hate to see Gentoo
stall or stagnate again.  Number two really concerns me a lot.  The devs
can decide if they should support the idea as far as man power.  I don't
see a way around having to search different sites to find fixes tho.

That said, I know Jeremy at LQ from talks in the past.  I know the site
and it is a great site.  I am not questioning that at all. 

As for people knowing about Gentoo and the forums, go to google and type
in Gentoo.  First hit, Gentoo home page.  Even includes links to the
docs and other pages that are handy.

Thoughts?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jeremy Olexa]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alistair Bush wrote:
>> Dale wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The Gentoo subforum on LQ would help to collect the posts in one place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
>>> forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look for
>>> answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
>>>
>>> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I just
>>> don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we have is
>>> more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums, I'm not sure
>>> they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How about we ask for a subforum to be created with a BIG STICKY telling
>> it is better to ask support questions at forums.gentoo.org
>>
>> Could it be possible that users don't know about f.g.o?  ( find it
>> highly unlikely actually)
>>
>> Alistair
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'm not 100% against this.  I do like your idea a lot tho.  I have two
> things that concern me but may not make sense to anyone else.
>
> 1:  Anyone remember the GUI installer?  I didn't think there was enough
> people back then to support that "monster" either.  I liked the idea but
> thought Gentoo would be better served by letting the devs concentrate on
> better things and most likely more important things.  I feel about the
> same way about this.  In the past week or so, I have seen discussions
> about packages not having maintainers and other things that needs
> attention but lack time or man power.  While Gentoo has come a VERY long
> way in even the past few months, I would hate to see it get bogged down
> with another project.  If it gets more projects than it can handle, the
> "death of Gentoo" talk will start again.  I been here long enough to see
> that a few times.

The point that you are missing is that Jesús is already doing the same
stuff now as he will in the future. He just needs a project page to
make his "job" even easier and 'official' for LQ management.

>
> 2:  I sort of like having basically one place to go for help.  The place
> I go is Gentoo.  That includes the Gentoo mailing list and the Gentoo
> forums.  If LQ has a forum, who is next, justlinux, then someone else
> etc etc etc?  Am I and a lot of other people going to have to search
> half a dozen websites to find a fix?  What if the answer to my question
> is on a website I am not familiar with or know about?  There would be a
> lot of duplication of threads across several sites and fixes would be
> harder to find.   I am a member at justlinux, LQ and several other sites
> and I on occasion help people on other sites but I don't go looking for
> Gentoo fixes there.

Agreed, but people will do it anyway. We can't "shut down"
http://www.gentoo-quebec.org/forum/ for example.

>
> I'm not a dev by any means and what I say may not count for anything and
> could be ignored if needed.  I have been using Gentoo since the old 1.4
> days, even that was old when I got the CD, so I would hate to see Gentoo
> stall or stagnate again.  Number two really concerns me a lot.  The devs
> can decide if they should support the idea as far as man power.  I don't
> see a way around having to search different sites to find fixes tho.

I highly, highly doubt that the GSE project will cause any stagnation
of Gentoo Linux. Jesús is not an ebuild developer, so if anything his
efforts here will *help* Gentoo and could bring in more community
members. The more community members we have, the more ebuild
developers we might get, etc etc.

>
> That said, I know Jeremy at LQ from talks in the past.  I know the site
> and it is a great site.  I am not questioning that at all.
>
> As for people knowing about Gentoo and the forums, go to google and type
> in Gentoo.  First hit, Gentoo home page.  Even includes links to the
> docs and other pages that are handy.
>
> Thoughts?

I really don't understand your negativity showing in this thread. I'm
not trying to attack you or anything, so don't get the wrong
impression.

>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 22:26, Jeremy Olexa wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Alistair Bush wrote:
>>
>>> Dale wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The Gentoo subforum on LQ would help to collect the posts in one
>>>>> place.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That would be the point.  Gentoo has its own forum so why have two
>>>>  forums?  What would be the point in having two places to go look
>>>> for answers?  Better yet, why would Gentoo support both forums?
>>>>
>>>> I'm a member at LQ tho I haven't been there in a long while.  I
>>>> just don't see why there has to be two forums when the one forum we
>>>> have is more than enough.  If someone can't find the Gentoo forums,
>>>> I'm not sure
>>>> they can find the chair and keyboard either.  lol
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about we ask for a subforum to be created with a BIG STICKY
>>> telling it is better to ask support questions at forums.gentoo.org
>>>
>>> Could it be possible that users don't know about f.g.o?  ( find it
>>> highly unlikely actually)
>>>
>>> Alistair
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not 100% against this.  I do like your idea a lot tho.  I have
>> two things that concern me but may not make sense to anyone else.
>>
>> 1:  Anyone remember the GUI installer?  I didn't think there was
>> enough people back then to support that "monster" either.  I liked the
>> idea but thought Gentoo would be better served by letting the devs
>> concentrate on better things and most likely more important things.  I
>> feel about the same way about this.  In the past week or so, I have
>> seen discussions about packages not having maintainers and other things
>> that needs attention but lack time or man power.  While Gentoo has come
>> a VERY long way in even the past few months, I would hate to see it get
>> bogged down with another project.  If it gets more projects than it can
>> handle, the "death of Gentoo" talk will start again.  I been here long
>> enough to see that a few times.
>
> The point that you are missing is that Jesús is already doing the same
> stuff now as he will in the future. He just needs a project page to make
> his "job" even easier and 'official' for LQ management.

As you say, I've said it lots of times, this will be the last
time I repeat and explain it to Dale: *I* am the one doing that,
and *I* am already doing that, and *will* continue to do that.

The ebuilds that lack attention will continue to lack attention
until someone volunteers to fix them. And *I am not* going to do
so, it doesn't matter if this project succeeds or not. So I
can't really understand that argument. Whatever *I* do will have
zero effect on the other areas you mention. Nor in a positive nor
a negative way. Whether this project becomes official or I continue
supporting people alone by myself my contribution to stagnated
ebuilds will be exactly the same: ZERO. Except for some occasional
bug report to bugzilla, just like any other user, and never as a
developer because first: I am no portage developer, second: I have
no interest in the matter.

Can anyone force me to change my interests? no.

What Dale is missing is that people will only contribute where
they are interested, and if that's not possible, then they won't
contribute at all.



>> 2:  I sort of like having basically one place to go for help.  The
>> place I go is Gentoo.  That includes the Gentoo mailing list and the
>> Gentoo
>> forums.  If LQ has a forum, who is next, justlinux, then someone else
>> etc etc etc?  Am I and a lot of other people going to have to search
>> half a dozen websites to find a fix?  What if the answer to my
>> question is on a website I am not familiar with or know about?  There
>> would be a lot of duplication of threads across several sites and fixes
>> would be harder to find.   I am a member at justlinux, LQ and several
>> other sites and I on occasion help people on other sites but I don't go
>> looking for Gentoo fixes there.
>>
>
> Agreed, but people will do it anyway. We can't "shut down"
> http://www.gentoo-quebec.org/forum/ for example.

I already explained in my other posts that this is not about
segregating the support. It is about handling something that's
real, it doesn't matter if you like it or not: *it's real*,
people do post there. The world is as it is. That's another
thing that I won't repeat again because this is going round
in circles.

This will have exactly zero negative effect on the Gentoo forum,
eventually users on those forum(s) will use forums.gentoo.org
directed to here by me.



Comments are always welcome, but we are saying the same thing
again and again ad infinitum so I'll leave it at that unless
new arguments appear in scene.

Regards :)

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2009.05.20 12:26, Dale wrote:
[snip]
> 
> But does Gentoo support those forums?  My point is, the people here,
> devs in particular, have enough to do already.  Why add one more 
> thing
> for them to deal with?
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 

Dale,

I think the answer is yes, Gentoo supports these forums.
We appear to have a project and some gentoo devs posting, on LQ anyway.

To me, that counts as support.  

There is no extra work for Gentoo - we do not admin these forums, just 
answer a few posts ... and only if we want to.

The PR is valuable.

- -- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySeagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
treecleaners
trustees
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[AllenJB]

Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> This is a request for comments on a new project,
> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
> 
> The web page doesn't really explain all the background
> needed to understand why would anyone want to start such
> a project. However this forum thread might be more
> clarifying:
> 
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
> 
> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
> that wander around the LQ forums, and to create a Gentoo
> subforum at LQ like many other distros do. However, eventually
> the support might be extended to other places if there's a
> need and enough human power to do so.
> 
> Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.
> 

After reading everything so far, basically as far as I can see this 
project exists solely to provide a capacity for an "official" presence 
on LinuxQuestions (and perhaps other sites later). Of the current 
membership it appears to be taking up no time.

However, is an entire standalone project for this necessary? Could this 
not just be coordinated as a task of userrel (or perhaps forum 
moderators, as suggested earlier)? What purpose does having a standalone 
project have over doing this within an existing project?

Specifically in relation to the LQ sub-forum, will the members of the 
project be moderating that sub-forum? Or is their task purely to help 
there and moderation is left to the LQ moderators?

How will you ensure that an official presence is maintained in the long 
run? While it's all well and good to say that the current members are 
spending their time there anyway, but what happens in 3+ years time when 
they move on. As I see it Gentoo is left with a (semi-)official 
sub-forum that it created but no longer supports - How will this reflect 
on Gentoo as a whole?

Will you be intending to recruit some sort of "official helpers" (who 
are probably already active on these forums)? Would they become members 
of the project (and thus Gentoo Staffers/Developers)? What privileges 
would these project members have within the Gentoo Development sphere?

AllenJB

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[René 'Necoro' Neumann]

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Dale schrieb:
> As for people knowing about Gentoo and the forums, go to google and type
> in Gentoo.  First hit, Gentoo home page.  Even includes links to the
> docs and other pages that are handy.

Allow me a short remark: Enter "gentoo forum" - and you won't find one
important thing: The official Gentoo forums... Allowing Google to index
the Gentoo Forums (again) looks like a quite handy way of making people
not wanting to ask their questions elsewhere.

Regards,
Necoro
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 22:58, AllenJB wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> This is a request for comments on a new project,
>> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>>
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>>
>>
>> The web page doesn't really explain all the background
>> needed to understand why would anyone want to start such a project.
>> However this forum thread might be more
>> clarifying:
>>
>>
>> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-762914.html
>>
>>
>> The initial aim is to provide some support to these lost souls
>> that wander around the LQ forums, and to create a Gentoo subforum at LQ
>> like many other distros do. However, eventually the support might be
>> extended to other places if there's a need and enough human power to do
>> so.
>>
>> Comments welcome, and thanks for reading.
>>
>>
>
> After reading everything so far, basically as far as I can see this
> project exists solely to provide a capacity for an "official" presence on
> LinuxQuestions (and perhaps other sites later). Of the current
> membership it appears to be taking up no time.
>
> However, is an entire standalone project for this necessary? Could this
> not just be coordinated as a task of userrel (or perhaps forum moderators,
> as suggested earlier)? What purpose does having a standalone project have
> over doing this within an existing project?

I did this just because it was suggested in the forum thread,
and it seemed like the way to go. Other ideas might be better
for this so I am ready to hear them of course.

> Specifically in relation to the LQ sub-forum, will the members of the
> project be moderating that sub-forum? Or is their task purely to help there
> and moderation is left to the LQ moderators?

We will not be part of the LQ team and we will not be moderating
anything there. Easy put, all they want is us to say "hey, we
are here and we like that there's a gentoo forum at LQ", some
kind of official pronunciation, and a project seemed official
enough for me (in fact, more than they ask for).

> How will you ensure that an official presence is maintained in the long
> run? While it's all well and good to say that the current members are
> spending their time there anyway, but what happens in 3+ years time when
> they move on. As I see it Gentoo is left with a (semi-)official sub-forum
> that it created but no longer supports - How will this reflect on Gentoo
> as a whole?

That's another task for a project, isn't it?, to guarantee its own
continuity when members leave. If not, the project dies and the LQ
support would die as well. That can happen in any project, but if
there's  a project it's less likely that the idea will die starved
forgotten in some dead thread into a forum or something like that.
It's my view anyway.

> Will you be intending to recruit some sort of "official helpers" (who
> are probably already active on these forums)? Would they become members of
> the project (and thus Gentoo Staffers/Developers)? What privileges would
> these project members have within the Gentoo Development sphere?

LQ do not require any big support on our side. Whoever want to help
is welcome to help, but really the amount of gentoo traffic there
is not that big, and we can just redirect them to our forum when
needed. There's no need for a big staff or something like that, as
I already said, even one person would be ok and that's all they ask
for.

It's not like having a second forum there, just some basic attention
for those that dive lost in the net for some reason.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero

Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Gentoo Support Everywhere

[Jesús Guerrero]

On Wed, May 20, 2009 19:12, Petteri Räty wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 18:43, Petteri Räty wrote:
>>
>>> Jesús Guerrero wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a request for comments on a new project,
>>>> namely "Gentoo Support Everywhere".
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gse/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> New projects must be announced via gentoo-dev-announce and I haven't
>>> see a mail although project pages exist. Also I don't see how this
>>> thread belonged to the -dev mailing list in the first place. Seems
>>> -project
>>> material to me.
>>
>> Because that's what GLEP39 says, and I haven't found any more
>> official doc on it. Quoting it:
>>
>> "Any dev may create a new project just by creating a new page (or, more
>>  realistically, directory and page) in gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en and
>> sending a Request For Comments (RFC) e-mail to gentoo-dev."
>>
>>
>> So, these are the steps I've followed. As said, I am new to this
>> stuff.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah I don't think the GLEPs have been active maintained for a while but
> really need to something to that. I stress to new devs to think to use
> gentoo-dev-announce for all important matters even if the docs don't
> explicitly state it. Any way please also make a post to
> gentoo-dev-announce to rectify the situation.

Thanks Petteri, I shall do it.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero