[gentoo-dev] Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[gentoo-dev] Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Thomas Sachau]

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I would like to ask all people, who get to users, who want to contribute with ebuilds or similar,
tell them about our sunrise overlay[1][2]. People can learn how to write ebuilds, they can learn how
to write ebuilds with some nice QA, they learn how to manage a SCM (in this case svn) and some may
even enhance to gentoo developers. :-)
As a side effect, we get a nice collection of ebuild, which are easily maintainable even by users
and which are easily accessable by everyone.

Esp. i would ask those who wrangle bug: If a user contributes an ebuild for an app not already in
portage, tell them about sunrise, so they help out a little bit more, if they are interested. With
that done, something like "sunrise suggested" in Whiteboard would be nice.





Anyone knows an easy way to point people to our overlay from e.g. our main website? Something like
www.gentoo.org -> "I want to contribute"/Contributions -> Sunrise/others would be nice. It could
help to get more contributions and activity to sunrise on the one side and will make it easier for
people who want to contribute to find some place where they can do it.

Other ideas/suggestions for Sunrise are also welcome, tell me about them on-list/off-list/by
mail/#gentoo-sunrise or other preferred way.

[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/sunrise
[2]: http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/sunrise/wiki


-- 
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Thomas Sachau wrote:
> I would like to ask all people, who get to users, who want to contribute with ebuilds or similar,
> tell them about our sunrise overlay[1][2]. People can learn how to write ebuilds, they can learn how
> to write ebuilds with some nice QA, they learn how to manage a SCM (in this case svn) and some may
> even enhance to gentoo developers. :-)
> As a side effect, we get a nice collection of ebuild, which are easily maintainable even by users
> and which are easily accessable by everyone.
> 
> Esp. i would ask those who wrangle bug: If a user contributes an ebuild for an app not already in
> portage, tell them about sunrise, so they help out a little bit more, if they are interested. With
> that done, something like "sunrise suggested" in Whiteboard would be nice.

I was told to try sunrise with some of my ebuilds.  There's a reason I 
didn't, and I suspect it's the same other people also don't go to 
sunrise.  There's no good way of contributing an ebuild.  There's no 
bugzilla or website where I can upload the ebuild.  All I'm told is to 
go to IRC.  I would as well might have been required to go to McDonald's.

[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Tiziano Müller]

Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

> Thomas Sachau wrote:
>> I would like to ask all people, who get to users, who want to contribute with ebuilds or similar,
>> tell them about our sunrise overlay[1][2]. People can learn how to write ebuilds, they can learn how
>> to write ebuilds with some nice QA, they learn how to manage a SCM (in this case svn) and some may
>> even enhance to gentoo developers. :-)
>> As a side effect, we get a nice collection of ebuild, which are easily maintainable even by users
>> and which are easily accessable by everyone.
>> 
>> Esp. i would ask those who wrangle bug: If a user contributes an ebuild for an app not already in
>> portage, tell them about sunrise, so they help out a little bit more, if they are interested. With
>> that done, something like "sunrise suggested" in Whiteboard would be nice.
>
> I was told to try sunrise with some of my ebuilds.  There's a reason I 
> didn't, and I suspect it's the same other people also don't go to 
> sunrise.  There's no good way of contributing an ebuild.  There's no 
> bugzilla or website where I can upload the ebuild.  All I'm told is to 
> go to IRC.  I would as well might have been required to go to McDonald's.

Well, sunrise is not about uploading a package just somewhere but about
having it reviewed and corrected such that it follows basic guidelines.
Since this process requires bi-directional communication, IRC is a good
(low-latency) way to do that.

And if you'd have read the sunrise project site you'd know that all
ebuilds in sunrise need a corresponding "ebuild request" bug in
bugzilla.

I know that this requires more time from people writing ebuilds getting
their work in sunrise than just to upload it somewhere.

On the plus side we had many people recruited via the sunrise project
(including myself), we can provide a minimal support for people having
problems with ebuilds in the sunrise overlay and provide a minimal
guarantee that the ebuilds should work, not include trojans/malware,
etc.

Now, since the sunrise project gets bigger, we might also create a
mailinglist to discuss ebuilds for people can't/do not want to use IRC.
This would also make it possible to CC the mailinglist-address for bugs
where the ebuilds are in sunrise.

Cheers,
Tiziano

[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Tiziano Müller wrote:
> Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> I was told to try sunrise with some of my ebuilds.  There's a reason I 
>> didn't, and I suspect it's the same other people also don't go to 
>> sunrise.  There's no good way of contributing an ebuild.  There's no 
>> bugzilla or website where I can upload the ebuild.  All I'm told is to 
>> go to IRC.  I would as well might have been required to go to McDonald's.
> 
> Well, sunrise is not about uploading a package just somewhere but about
> having it reviewed and corrected such that it follows basic guidelines.
> Since this process requires bi-directional communication, IRC is a good
> (low-latency) way to do that.

I disagree.  IM does not provide for communication that can be 
looked-up, which is important.  I post something, many people will look 
at it and some of them will reply.  That is not possible with IM.  A 
mailing list is also sub-optimal.  A forum or bugzilla is needed where 
information/communication is stored and can be categorized and looked up.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Dawid Węgliński]

On Monday 24 of November 2008 09:21:33 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Tiziano Müller wrote:
> > Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> I was told to try sunrise with some of my ebuilds.  There's a reason I
> >> didn't, and I suspect it's the same other people also don't go to
> >> sunrise.  There's no good way of contributing an ebuild.  There's no
> >> bugzilla or website where I can upload the ebuild.  All I'm told is to
> >> go to IRC.  I would as well might have been required to go to
> >> McDonald's.
> >
> > Well, sunrise is not about uploading a package just somewhere but about
> > having it reviewed and corrected such that it follows basic guidelines.
> > Since this process requires bi-directional communication, IRC is a good
> > (low-latency) way to do that.
>
> I disagree.  IM does not provide for communication that can be
> looked-up, which is important.  I post something, many people will look
> at it and some of them will reply.  That is not possible with IM.  A
> mailing list is also sub-optimal.  A forum or bugzilla is needed where
> information/communication is stored and can be categorized and looked up.

The previous speeker just told you sunrise cooperates with Gentoo 
bugzilla. :-) Anyway, if IRC is not an option for everyone (i agree it may 
not be), mailinglist would be good. This way any informations could be 
archived for next contributors. :)

Cheers.

[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Duncan]

Tiziano Müller <dev-zero@gentoo.org> posted ggdmn4$odh$1@ger.gmane.org,
excerpted below, on  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:56:20 +0000:

> Now, since the sunrise project gets bigger, we might also create a
> mailinglist to discuss ebuilds for people can't/do not want to use IRC.
> This would also make it possible to CC the mailinglist-address for bugs
> where the ebuilds are in sunrise.

I'd be interested in a mailing list.  I haven't had any specific drive to 
do an ebuild for anything not in the tree (sometimes versions not in the 
tree, live versions, etc, but not packages), but if I did, I'd certainly 
be put-off by IRC.  I've found I do far better with an async 
communication medium such as mailing-lists/newsgroups, and IRC/IM tends 
to be rather uncomfortable for me.  That in fact is a big reason I never 
moved on becoming a Gentoo/amd64 AT, as well, since when I asked, they 
were doing most communication thru IRC, and that just doesn't work well 
for me.  But I'm OK with lists and newsgroups, which is why you see me 
here and never on IRC.

I'm sure I'm not alone.  FWIW and from my observation, generally, younger 
folks tend to take to IM/IRC like my generation, at least the geeks in 
it, tend to take to newsgroups/lists.  I'll be 42 in January.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[René 'Necoro' Neumann]

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Duncan schrieb:
> Tiziano Müller <dev-zero@gentoo.org> posted ggdmn4$odh$1@ger.gmane.org,
> excerpted below, on  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:56:20 +0000:
> 
>> Now, since the sunrise project gets bigger, we might also create a
>> mailinglist to discuss ebuilds for people can't/do not want to use IRC.
>> This would also make it possible to CC the mailinglist-address for bugs
>> where the ebuilds are in sunrise.
> 
> I'd be interested in a mailing list. 

What about the gentoo-devhelp mailinglist? :) As #gentoo-dev-help is
also a support-channel for ebuild-concerning questions (if I'm not
mistaken). And I can't see the reason for having just-another-ml (TM) ;)

Regards,
René
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Duncan]

René 'Necoro' Neumann <lists@necoro.eu> posted 492AC6F4.9020405@necoro.eu,
excerpted below, on  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:23:32 +0100:

> Duncan schrieb:
>> Tiziano Müller posted:
>> 
>>> Now, since the sunrise project gets bigger, we might also create a
>>> mailinglist to discuss ebuilds for people can't/do not want to use
>>> IRC.
>> 
>> I'd be interested in a mailing list.
> 
> What about the gentoo-devhelp mailinglist? :)

Sounds fine to me.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Thomas Sachau]

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Nikos Chantziaras schrieb:
> Thomas Sachau wrote:
>> I would like to ask all people, who get to users, who want to
>> contribute with ebuilds or similar,
>> tell them about our sunrise overlay[1][2]. People can learn how to
>> write ebuilds, they can learn how
>> to write ebuilds with some nice QA, they learn how to manage a SCM (in
>> this case svn) and some may
>> even enhance to gentoo developers. :-)
>> As a side effect, we get a nice collection of ebuild, which are easily
>> maintainable even by users
>> and which are easily accessable by everyone.
>>
>> Esp. i would ask those who wrangle bug: If a user contributes an
>> ebuild for an app not already in
>> portage, tell them about sunrise, so they help out a little bit more,
>> if they are interested. With
>> that done, something like "sunrise suggested" in Whiteboard would be
>> nice.
> 
> I was told to try sunrise with some of my ebuilds.  There's a reason I
> didn't, and I suspect it's the same other people also don't go to
> sunrise.  There's no good way of contributing an ebuild.  There's no
> bugzilla or website where I can upload the ebuild.  All I'm told is to
> go to IRC.  I would as well might have been required to go to McDonald's.
> 
> 
> 

You cannot just upload some file and be done with it. Sure, the sunrise overlay is for users, but we
want to have some QA standard in there. And if everyone could just upload things without prior
review, how would QA of that overlay look like? ;-)

If you just want to submit an ebuild (which will probably just sit there without anything
happening), you can open a bug at bugzilla.gentoo.org. And you are done.

If you want to do more (learning and contributing), you can try project sunrise. For now it is/was
the usual way to use IRC (most are already using it, just another channel and it provides
low-latency responses) for support, review and everything else. I would have no problem to create a
mailing list for sunrise, but convince me that it would not get maybe 10 messages at the beginning
and remains dead later one. ;-)

> Now, since the sunrise project gets bigger, we might also create a
> mailinglist to discuss ebuilds for people can't/do not want to use IRC.
> This would also make it possible to CC the mailinglist-address for bugs
> where the ebuilds are in sunrise.

A mailing list may be ok, but dont abuse it as bugzilla account. :-)
For bugzilla related things, see my next mail.

> I disagree.  IM does not provide for communication that can be looked-up, which is important.
> I post something, many people will look at it and some of them will reply.  That is not possible
> with IM.  A mailing list is also sub-optimal.  A forum or bugzilla is needed where
> information/communication is stored and can be categorized and looked up.

Every ebuild in sunrise has a bug at bugzilla. Any relevant information can be stored there. You can
also discuss things specific to this ebuild there.
In one point, i have to disagree: If you post something in any bigger IRC channel, there will be
more than one person looking at it and you may get more than one response. This is even to for
#gentoo-sunrise (also you should aim at european evening as that is the time of most acitivity).

> What about the gentoo-devhelp mailinglist?  :)  As #gentoo-dev-help is
> also a support-channel for ebuild-concerning questions (if I'm not
> mistaken). And I can't see the reason for having just-another-ml (TM)  ;) 

1. i dont read it ;-)
2. it is around help with every sort of ebuilds, not only those in or for sunrise, so would have
some "spam" e.g. for me
3. it "spam"s the list with things sunrise related for people who are not interested in sunrise
overlay specific things.

Alltogether, i would say, similar reason as for why we have #gentoo-dev-help and #gentoo-sunrise :-)


-- 
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Homer Parker]

On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 11:45 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> That in fact is a big reason I never 
> moved on becoming a Gentoo/amd64 AT, as well, since when I asked,
> they 
> were doing most communication thru IRC, and that just doesn't work
> well 
> for me. 

	It's just that it's quicker and easier to get responses via IRC if
you're there.. There's ATs that don't hang out in IRC and still follow
bugzie and do their testing.

> I'm sure I'm not alone.  FWIW and from my observation, generally,
> younger 
> folks tend to take to IM/IRC like my generation, at least the geeks
> in 
> it, tend to take to newsgroups/lists.  I'll be 42 in January.

	There's quite a few of us older types in IRC, it's not just for kids ;)

-- 
Homer Parker <hparker@gentoo.org>

[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Ryan Hill]

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On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:31:34 +0100
Thomas Sachau <tommy@gentoo.org> wrote:

> 1. i dont read it ;-)
> 2. it is around help with every sort of ebuilds, not only those in or
> for sunrise, so would have some "spam" e.g. for me

There have been a grand total of 20 messages since we added it to gmane
a year ago.


> 3. it "spam"s the list with things sunrise related for people who are
> not interested in sunrise overlay specific things.

It seems to me that many of the questions people would be asking would
be relevant to that list.  Also, anything relevant to that list should
be relevant to sunrise.

> Alltogether, i would say, similar reason as for why we have
> #gentoo-dev-help and #gentoo-sunrise :-)


-- 
gcc-porting,                                      by design, by neglect
treecleaner,                              for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Ryan Hill wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:31:34 +0100
> Thomas Sachau <tommy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> 1. i dont read it ;-)
>> 2. it is around help with every sort of ebuilds, not only those in or
>> for sunrise, so would have some "spam" e.g. for me
> 
> There have been a grand total of 20 messages since we added it to gmane
> a year ago.
> 
> 
>> 3. it "spam"s the list with things sunrise related for people who are
>> not interested in sunrise overlay specific things.
> 
> It seems to me that many of the questions people would be asking would
> be relevant to that list.  Also, anything relevant to that list should
> be relevant to sunrise.
> 
>> Alltogether, i would say, similar reason as for why we have
>> #gentoo-dev-help and #gentoo-sunrise :-)
> 
> 

I agree with Ryan that using this ml could be helpful for everyone.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / SPARC / KDE
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 16:03 Mon 24 Nov     , Homer Parker wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 11:45 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> > That in fact is a big reason I never moved on becoming a 
> > Gentoo/amd64 AT, as well, since when I asked, they were doing most 
> > communication thru IRC, and that just doesn't work well for me.
> 
> 	It's just that it's quicker and easier to get responses via IRC if 
> you're there.. There's ATs that don't hang out in IRC and still follow 
> bugzie and do their testing.

Frankly, nothing works as well as IRC for realtime, interactive 
collaboration. You can't have a rapid back-and-forth by email, because 
everyone checks their email at most once per minute and generally far 
less often.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 16:03 Mon 24 Nov     , Homer Parker wrote:
>> On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 11:45 +0000, Duncan wrote:
>>> That in fact is a big reason I never moved on becoming a 
>>> Gentoo/amd64 AT, as well, since when I asked, they were doing most 
>>> communication thru IRC, and that just doesn't work well for me.
>> 	It's just that it's quicker and easier to get responses via IRC if 
>> you're there.. There's ATs that don't hang out in IRC and still follow 
>> bugzie and do their testing.
> 
> Frankly, nothing works as well as IRC for realtime, interactive 
> collaboration.

That's why we don't use it ;)

[gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Duncan]

Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> posted ggj8tt$6qh$1@ger.gmane.org,
excerpted below, on  Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:37:45 +0200:

> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> On 16:03 Mon 24 Nov     , Homer Parker wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 11:45 +0000, Duncan wrote:
>>>> That in fact is a big reason I never moved on becoming a Gentoo/amd64
>>>> AT, as well, since when I asked, they were doing most communication
>>>> thru IRC, and that just doesn't work well for me.
>>> 	It's just that it's quicker and easier to get responses via IRC if
>>> you're there.. There's ATs that don't hang out in IRC and still follow
>>> bugzie and do their testing.
>> 
>> Frankly, nothing works as well as IRC for realtime, interactive
>> collaboration.
> 
> That's why we don't use it ;)

Exactly. =:^)

I'm really too deliberative a thinker to comfortably keep up with IM/IRC, 
and there tend to be problems with either incoming message overload or 
(effectively) remote end time-out because they get bored waiting for me.

OTOH, mailing lists and newsgroup servers where most users are on the 
same server and working at the same time, can work very close to real-
time as well, except the technology buffers incoming messages somewhat 
better when necessary, and it doesn't matter so much if you take 20 
minutes to compose a reply.

Then there's the whole "I want to schedule my own time" thing, where IM, 
as with phones, can be very annoying due to the "right now" aspect.  That 
sort of irritation just doesn't exist using a mailinglist/newsgroup, as 
the timing assumptions are very different.

Nothing against those for whom it works.  It just doesn't work for 
everyone.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Santiago M. Mola]

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Exactly. =:^)
>
> I'm really too deliberative a thinker to comfortably keep up with IM/IRC,
> and there tend to be problems with either incoming message overload or
> (effectively) remote end time-out because they get bored waiting for me.
>

If there are Sunrise collaborators (or people with strong intentions
of becoming one) who want to propose a Sunrise mailing list, that's
fine. Otherwise, this discussion is pointless. I don't think we want
to start a debate in @gentoo-dev where everyone in this list state his
opinion about what communication methods are more effective.

Regards,
-- 
Santiago M. Mola
Jabber ID: cooldwind@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Some support for Sunrise Overlay :-)

[Ajai Khattri]

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On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Tiziano Müller wrote:

> Well, sunrise is not about uploading a package just somewhere but about
> having it reviewed and corrected such that it follows basic guidelines.
> Since this process requires bi-directional communication, IRC is a good
> (low-latency) way to do that.

Some people simply dont like IRC. Or are unable to use IRC because of 
corporate firewalls...



-- 
A