[gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Jeff Rose]

Hello,
	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
interested or knowledgable enough.
	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
download, chroot... type of stuff?
	What do you think?

-Jeff


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Riyad Kalla]

Jeff there is an installer in the works called Cursing Cow, I forgot who
was working on it, but I'm sure they'll reply soon enough...

Best,
-Riyad

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rose [mailto:rosejn@Colorado.EDU]
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 4:04 PM
> To: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer
>
>
> Hello,
> 	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.
> Just a few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid
> supporter.  Anyway, I'm thinking about starting a summer
> project and I'm pondering the idea of a gui installer.  I've
> been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like anyone is
> working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a
> project then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know,
> gentoo is so great because it allows you to customize and
> tweak the hell out of everything. That is completely true.
> So, an installer would have to allow just as much but it
> could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> interested or knowledgable enough.
> 	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in
> terms of the installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that
> you have gone over hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than
> a gui installer, have you thought about adding more scripts
> to do the standard directory setup, download, chroot... type of stuff?
> 	What do you think?
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Alec Berryman]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 594 bytes --]

On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 18:25, Riyad Kalla wrote:
> Jeff there is an installer in the works called Cursing Cow, I forgot who
> was working on it, but I'm sure they'll reply soon enough...

http://cvs.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/gentoo-src/cursingcow/

There was a bit of discussion on this back on March 17 - the thread
subject was "status of gentoo-installer?".  Someone offered to do it in
Java, but I'm not sure that ever took off the ground - everything else
Gentoo is Python, anyway.

-- 

Alec Berryman <alec@lorax.wox.org>
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-key DFB366F2

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Brian Harring]

On Friday 11 April 2003 06:04 pm, Jeff Rose wrote:
> Hello,
> 	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> interested or knowledgable enough.

One thing to consider, obviously you're going to probably have some type of 
cli based portage viewer/installer as part of it-  It would be worthwhile to 
break the cli portage manager off into a seperate package.
I'm curious how high/low level you're intending for the installer.  On par w/ 
redhat's server/workstation/custom, or on par w/ debian's?
~harring

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[George Shapovalov]

Just wanted to add to this pool. Almost a year ago (more precisely July 2002) 
there was some work done on anaconda based installer by Victor R. Prada, 
perheaps the closest to what you are considering to do. 
The last mention I can find in my archives is on 2002-07-27, so not sure 
what's been happening to this project since than. Doesn't look like this 
project is alive or even Victor still around :(. Correspondingly not sure if 
the links below are any good anymore..
Still, you might want to try getting whatever was already done to jumpstart 
your project. I am posting said message below:

George

------------- citation start ----------
Hello everybody

About a week a go i'd upload an iso image of an Gentoo Linux GUI 
Installer. Anyone who wants to test it can download it from
http://gentoo.latinux.org/latinux_gentoo_installer/Gentoo_latinux_internet-01.img

The installer will install what i call a "Gentoo Base System" that have 
everything needed to begin to work with Gentoo. If you want you can even 
remerge the system optimized to your machine.

Thanks
VМctor Prada

P.D. About 300 people has already download the image (or at least try to 
do it), people with nvidia cards will need to begin the instaltion 
without frame buffer mode typing "nofb" at the inital boot prompt

-- 
Lic. VМctor Prada
Lider TИcnico Latinux-Gentoo
Corvus LatinoamИrica c.a.
Caracas - Venezuela


On Friday 11 April 2003 16:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
> Hello,
> 	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> interested or knowledgable enough.
> 	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> download, chroot... type of stuff?
> 	What do you think?


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Justin Whitney]

I think some or all of Mandrake's install system is under GPL as well,
so you might want to check that out.

--Justin

On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
> Hello,
> 	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> interested or knowledgable enough.
> 	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> download, chroot... type of stuff?
> 	What do you think?
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

Is the Mandrake install system based on RedHat's anaconda?  If it is, 
it's nicely written python...but you'll have to seriously hack it to get 
rid of the neat little rpm stuff :)

I'd be willing to help out a bit on this too...gotta get it going for 
Gentoo-Sparc :)

Derek

Justin Whitney wrote:

>I think some or all of Mandrake's install system is under GPL as well,
>so you might want to check that out.
>
>--Justin
>
>On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
>  
>
>>Hello,
>>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
>>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
>>thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
>>gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
>>anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
>>then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
>>because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
>>That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
>>much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
>>interested or knowledgable enough.
>>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
>>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
>>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
>>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
>>download, chroot... type of stuff?
>>	What do you think?
>>
>>-Jeff
>>
>>
>>--
>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>--
>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>  
>



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Cliff Free]

I think a GUI installer would be great if done correctly.  The
interface, obviously, should be easy to use, but in the spirit of
Gentoo, shouldn't limit the user with what he can do.  On a side note, I
also think it would be cool to have the ability to detect the processor
type(s) and include some optimization flags for the detected
processor(s) (I also feel this feature should be able to be toggled so
hard-core power-users would still have the option to fine-tune to their
heart's content, and that by default the feature would be OFF.  Maybee
the detection system would only augment CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS in
make.conf. and/or make.conf settings would override what's detected.) 
Just my 2 cents worth.  Doing this correctly could prove to be a
daunting task.

On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 01:38, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> Is the Mandrake install system based on RedHat's anaconda?  If it is, 
> it's nicely written python...but you'll have to seriously hack it to get 
> rid of the neat little rpm stuff :)
> 
> I'd be willing to help out a bit on this too...gotta get it going for 
> Gentoo-Sparc :)
> 
> Derek
> 
> Justin Whitney wrote:
> 
> >I think some or all of Mandrake's install system is under GPL as well,
> >so you might want to check that out.
> >
> >--Justin
> >
> >On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Hello,
> >>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> >>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> >>thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> >>gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> >>anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> >>then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> >>because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> >>That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> >>much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> >>interested or knowledgable enough.
> >>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> >>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> >>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> >>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> >>download, chroot... type of stuff?
> >>	What do you think?
> >>
> >>-Jeff
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
-- 
Cliff Free <anaranjado@bellsouth.net>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

The only problem I see with doing this is how to represent it in a user 
friendly, yet power user accessible fashion.  Maybe if you are using 
anaconda, you could have the power user abilities under "Amazing super 
power user" setting :)

Grabbing the processor isn't difficult, build a small database of known 
processors and compare it to /proc/cpuinfo.

At this point, what would you use for a install?  Stage1, 2 or 3?  Stage 
3 would be the quickest in my opinion as well giving the user a really 
good launching pad for an optimized system.

Cliff Free wrote:

>I think a GUI installer would be great if done correctly.  The
>interface, obviously, should be easy to use, but in the spirit of
>Gentoo, shouldn't limit the user with what he can do.  On a side note, I
>also think it would be cool to have the ability to detect the processor
>type(s) and include some optimization flags for the detected
>processor(s) (I also feel this feature should be able to be toggled so
>hard-core power-users would still have the option to fine-tune to their
>heart's content, and that by default the feature would be OFF.  Maybee
>the detection system would only augment CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS in
>make.conf. and/or make.conf settings would override what's detected.) 
>Just my 2 cents worth.  Doing this correctly could prove to be a
>daunting task.
>
>On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 01:38, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
>  
>
>>Is the Mandrake install system based on RedHat's anaconda?  If it is, 
>>it's nicely written python...but you'll have to seriously hack it to get 
>>rid of the neat little rpm stuff :)
>>
>>I'd be willing to help out a bit on this too...gotta get it going for 
>>Gentoo-Sparc :)
>>
>>Derek
>>
>>Justin Whitney wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I think some or all of Mandrake's install system is under GPL as well,
>>>so you might want to check that out.
>>>
>>>--Justin
>>>
>>>On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hello,
>>>>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
>>>>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
>>>>thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
>>>>gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
>>>>anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
>>>>then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
>>>>because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
>>>>That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
>>>>much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
>>>>interested or knowledgable enough.
>>>>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
>>>>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
>>>>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
>>>>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
>>>>download, chroot... type of stuff?
>>>>	What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>-Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>--
>>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>
>>--
>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>    
>>



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Jeff Rose]

Well, I'm glad to see that people are interested.  After doing some
initial research I have some thoughts.  First, we should decide on whether
we want to have a terminal or X based installer.  Does anyone know how
well the generic vesa driver works for X?  I personally have battled with
X so many times that I'm not sure I think its worth it for an installer.
(Although we could just use the RedHat stuff for autodetection etc. if we
want to go that direction.)  Besides X we could use ncurses dialog
widgets or another terminal gui package.  I was thinking it would be cool
to use somethine lighter than X like svgalib.  I have no experience with
it and don't know how cross platform (or cross video card) it is, but it
could be a cool solution if a decent widget set is put on top of it.  I'm
not sure if this would lead to more or less work than using X.
	As for choosing stages, that should be a decision made by the user
at install time.  We can very briefly explain how the system works and let
them do what they please.  For the complete novice we can basically have
the "do everything for me" button.  For the supreme hacker we can let them
have it all while still taking care of mundane details.  (For example,
they could choose what file systems they want to use on what partitions,
but that would just be a selection dialog rather than having to type the
commands etc...)  It might be nice if the installer can be exited at any
point so people have the ability to get things rolling quickly but then
tweak things out to their hearts content once its where they want it.
	One of the major pains in the redhat like installers deals with
package selection.  I think it is ridiculous to give people a list of a
thousand packages and tell them to pick.  Especially since the package
documentation is horrible.  Most people probably wouldn't know that its
important for them to have the e2fsprogs installed, for example.  So, this
is the portion of the installer where I see the most room for innovation.
Especially since gentoo has such a unique package system, we should really
try to enable the user as much as possible, rather than just hucking a
bunch of packages into the mix.  I'm still working on ideas, but we should
experiment with all kinds of stuff to get this stage really smoothed out.
	This idea of processor detection makes me think that a whole lot
of detection could go on if we wanted it to.  The thing is detection is
useless unless you can act on what you have detected.  Changing some CPU
related compiler flags is one thing, but what about detecting network,
sound, video, raid, scsi, firewire, printers etc.  This could all get very
tricky real fast.  What about using RedHats kudzu?

Peace,
Jeff


On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Derek J. Belrose wrote:

> The only problem I see with doing this is how to represent it in a user
> friendly, yet power user accessible fashion.  Maybe if you are using
> anaconda, you could have the power user abilities under "Amazing super
> power user" setting :)
>
> Grabbing the processor isn't difficult, build a small database of known
> processors and compare it to /proc/cpuinfo.
>
> At this point, what would you use for a install?  Stage1, 2 or 3?  Stage
> 3 would be the quickest in my opinion as well giving the user a really
> good launching pad for an optimized system.
>
> Cliff Free wrote:
>
> >I think a GUI installer would be great if done correctly.  The
> >interface, obviously, should be easy to use, but in the spirit of
> >Gentoo, shouldn't limit the user with what he can do.  On a side note, I
> >also think it would be cool to have the ability to detect the processor
> >type(s) and include some optimization flags for the detected
> >processor(s) (I also feel this feature should be able to be toggled so
> >hard-core power-users would still have the option to fine-tune to their
> >heart's content, and that by default the feature would be OFF.  Maybee
> >the detection system would only augment CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS in
> >make.conf. and/or make.conf settings would override what's detected.)
> >Just my 2 cents worth.  Doing this correctly could prove to be a
> >daunting task.
> >
> >On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 01:38, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Is the Mandrake install system based on RedHat's anaconda?  If it is,
> >>it's nicely written python...but you'll have to seriously hack it to get
> >>rid of the neat little rpm stuff :)
> >>
> >>I'd be willing to help out a bit on this too...gotta get it going for
> >>Gentoo-Sparc :)
> >>
> >>Derek
> >>
> >>Justin Whitney wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I think some or all of Mandrake's install system is under GPL as well,
> >>>so you might want to check that out.
> >>>
> >>>--Justin
> >>>
> >>>On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Hello,
> >>>>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> >>>>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> >>>>thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> >>>>gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> >>>>anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> >>>>then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> >>>>because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> >>>>That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> >>>>much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> >>>>interested or knowledgable enough.
> >>>>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> >>>>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> >>>>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> >>>>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> >>>>download, chroot... type of stuff?
> >>>>	What do you think?
> >>>>
> >>>>-Jeff
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>--
> >>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

I think we should take a look at RedHat's installer to see what goes on 
underneath.  For what I have used, it's hardware detection worked 
perfectly...i believe it's kudzu that drives it.

In my opinion, the installer should just do a stage install, and 
everything that the install doc describes...then on reboot maybe dump to 
X or a ncurses interface giving the user options on what to do next.  I 
like how Debian does it, basic install, then allow dpkg to be configured.

Opinions?

Jeff Rose wrote:

>Well, I'm glad to see that people are interested.  After doing some
>initial research I have some thoughts.  First, we should decide on whether
>we want to have a terminal or X based installer.  Does anyone know how
>well the generic vesa driver works for X?  I personally have battled with
>X so many times that I'm not sure I think its worth it for an installer.
>(Although we could just use the RedHat stuff for autodetection etc. if we
>want to go that direction.)  Besides X we could use ncurses dialog
>widgets or another terminal gui package.  I was thinking it would be cool
>to use somethine lighter than X like svgalib.  I have no experience with
>it and don't know how cross platform (or cross video card) it is, but it
>could be a cool solution if a decent widget set is put on top of it.  I'm
>not sure if this would lead to more or less work than using X.
>	As for choosing stages, that should be a decision made by the user
>at install time.  We can very briefly explain how the system works and let
>them do what they please.  For the complete novice we can basically have
>the "do everything for me" button.  For the supreme hacker we can let them
>have it all while still taking care of mundane details.  (For example,
>they could choose what file systems they want to use on what partitions,
>but that would just be a selection dialog rather than having to type the
>commands etc...)  It might be nice if the installer can be exited at any
>point so people have the ability to get things rolling quickly but then
>tweak things out to their hearts content once its where they want it.
>	One of the major pains in the redhat like installers deals with
>package selection.  I think it is ridiculous to give people a list of a
>thousand packages and tell them to pick.  Especially since the package
>documentation is horrible.  Most people probably wouldn't know that its
>important for them to have the e2fsprogs installed, for example.  So, this
>is the portion of the installer where I see the most room for innovation.
>Especially since gentoo has such a unique package system, we should really
>try to enable the user as much as possible, rather than just hucking a
>bunch of packages into the mix.  I'm still working on ideas, but we should
>experiment with all kinds of stuff to get this stage really smoothed out.
>	This idea of processor detection makes me think that a whole lot
>of detection could go on if we wanted it to.  The thing is detection is
>useless unless you can act on what you have detected.  Changing some CPU
>related compiler flags is one thing, but what about detecting network,
>sound, video, raid, scsi, firewire, printers etc.  This could all get very
>tricky real fast.  What about using RedHats kudzu?
>
>Peace,
>Jeff
>  
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Cedric Veilleux]

Why not simply use gentoo's livecd?

The livecd can boot the user into a fully loaded console or X workstation, 
with all the tools needed.

The installer could be an additional tool on the liveCD system.. Anybody knows 
a GUI abstration toolkit that can generate either terminal based or X based 
interface, depending on what's available at runtime?

This way the same installer could be used if X is not working or can't be 
used.

In both environment (terminal / X), multitasking would be possible so 
experienced users could perform manual tasks while the installer is waiting 
for input..


Just my 2 cents,

Cedric





Le 13 Avril 2003 04:49, Jeff Rose a écrit :
> Well, I'm glad to see that people are interested.  After doing some
> initial research I have some thoughts.  First, we should decide on whether
> we want to have a terminal or X based installer.  Does anyone know how
> well the generic vesa driver works for X?  I personally have battled with
> X so many times that I'm not sure I think its worth it for an installer.
> (Although we could just use the RedHat stuff for autodetection etc. if we
> want to go that direction.)  Besides X we could use ncurses dialog
> widgets or another terminal gui package.  I was thinking it would be cool
> to use somethine lighter than X like svgalib.  I have no experience with
> it and don't know how cross platform (or cross video card) it is, but it
> could be a cool solution if a decent widget set is put on top of it.  I'm
> not sure if this would lead to more or less work than using X.
> 	As for choosing stages, that should be a decision made by the user
> at install time.  We can very briefly explain how the system works and let
> them do what they please.  For the complete novice we can basically have
> the "do everything for me" button.  For the supreme hacker we can let them
> have it all while still taking care of mundane details.  (For example,
> they could choose what file systems they want to use on what partitions,
> but that would just be a selection dialog rather than having to type the
> commands etc...)  It might be nice if the installer can be exited at any
> point so people have the ability to get things rolling quickly but then
> tweak things out to their hearts content once its where they want it.
> 	One of the major pains in the redhat like installers deals with
> package selection.  I think it is ridiculous to give people a list of a
> thousand packages and tell them to pick.  Especially since the package
> documentation is horrible.  Most people probably wouldn't know that its
> important for them to have the e2fsprogs installed, for example.  So, this
> is the portion of the installer where I see the most room for innovation.
> Especially since gentoo has such a unique package system, we should really
> try to enable the user as much as possible, rather than just hucking a
> bunch of packages into the mix.  I'm still working on ideas, but we should
> experiment with all kinds of stuff to get this stage really smoothed out.
> 	This idea of processor detection makes me think that a whole lot
> of detection could go on if we wanted it to.  The thing is detection is
> useless unless you can act on what you have detected.  Changing some CPU
> related compiler flags is one thing, but what about detecting network,
> sound, video, raid, scsi, firewire, printers etc.  This could all get very
> tricky real fast.  What about using RedHats kudzu?
>
> Peace,
> Jeff
>
> On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> > The only problem I see with doing this is how to represent it in a user
> > friendly, yet power user accessible fashion.  Maybe if you are using
> > anaconda, you could have the power user abilities under "Amazing super
> > power user" setting :)
> >
> > Grabbing the processor isn't difficult, build a small database of known
> > processors and compare it to /proc/cpuinfo.
> >
> > At this point, what would you use for a install?  Stage1, 2 or 3?  Stage
> > 3 would be the quickest in my opinion as well giving the user a really
> > good launching pad for an optimized system.
> >
> > Cliff Free wrote:
> > >I think a GUI installer would be great if done correctly.  The
> > >interface, obviously, should be easy to use, but in the spirit of
> > >Gentoo, shouldn't limit the user with what he can do.  On a side note, I
> > >also think it would be cool to have the ability to detect the processor
> > >type(s) and include some optimization flags for the detected
> > >processor(s) (I also feel this feature should be able to be toggled so
> > >hard-core power-users would still have the option to fine-tune to their
> > >heart's content, and that by default the feature would be OFF.  Maybee
> > >the detection system would only augment CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS in
> > >make.conf. and/or make.conf settings would override what's detected.)
> > >Just my 2 cents worth.  Doing this correctly could prove to be a
> > >daunting task.
> > >
> > >On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 01:38, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> > >>Is the Mandrake install system based on RedHat's anaconda?  If it is,
> > >>it's nicely written python...but you'll have to seriously hack it to
> > >> get rid of the neat little rpm stuff :)
> > >>
> > >>I'd be willing to help out a bit on this too...gotta get it going for
> > >>Gentoo-Sparc :)
> > >>
> > >>Derek
> > >>
> > >>Justin Whitney wrote:
> > >>>I think some or all of Mandrake's install system is under GPL as well,
> > >>>so you might want to check that out.
> > >>>
> > >>>--Justin
> > >>>
> > >>>On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 19:04, Jeff Rose wrote:
> > >>>>Hello,
> > >>>>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> > >>>>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway,
> > >>>> I'm thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the
> > >>>> idea of a gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it
> > >>>> doesn't look like anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there
> > >>>> isn't already a project then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know,
> > >>>> I know, gentoo is so great because it allows you to customize and
> > >>>> tweak the hell out of everything. That is completely true.  So, an
> > >>>> installer would have to allow just as much but it could take care of
> > >>>> the mundane details for those who aren't interested or knowledgable
> > >>>> enough.
> > >>>>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> > >>>>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> > >>>>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> > >>>>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> > >>>>download, chroot... type of stuff?
> > >>>>	What do you think?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>-Jeff
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>--
> > >>>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> > >>>
> > >>>--
> > >>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

The only real way I can think of is to do some checks on if X is 
running, and if it is, use a graphical toolkit for X...if not, use a 
terminal based kit like ncurses.

I like this idea.  I should download a liveCD to throw some code on and 
do tests.

Is anyone against pyGTK or something like it?  pyQT?  wxPython? 

Is anyone against python? :)

Cedric Veilleux wrote:

>Why not simply use gentoo's livecd?
>
>The livecd can boot the user into a fully loaded console or X workstation, 
>with all the tools needed.
>
>The installer could be an additional tool on the liveCD system.. Anybody knows 
>a GUI abstration toolkit that can generate either terminal based or X based 
>interface, depending on what's available at runtime?
>
>This way the same installer could be used if X is not working or can't be 
>used.
>
>In both environment (terminal / X), multitasking would be possible so 
>experienced users could perform manual tasks while the installer is waiting 
>for input..
>
>
>Just my 2 cents,
>
>Cedric
>  
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Brian Harring]

While I think an X based installer would be nice, I think we might benefit 
from first doing up a cli based installer first... at the very least, we 
would need a cli portage viewer/manager, which would be a nice package on 
it's own...

Something also I thought about (and have been playing with), is having 
essentially a two stage process for the installer- basically everything prior 
to the chroot, and then everything after.  Why?  Well, it would be nice to 
have the first half of the installer handle all the fdisking, untarring, etc.  
>From there, it chroots, emerge syncs and emerge portages, then pulls down the 
newest version of itself, and runs that.

>From there, if we wanted we could probably setup some simple equivalent of a 
quicky binary x server/svgalib for a x based installer.  Meanwhile, if we 
have at least a basic cli installer setup, that would be immediately useful 
for the cd's, and w/ an update capability, we could push a graphical 
installer down to the user once we have it ready...
Thoughts?
~harring
bdharring@wisc.edu

On Sunday 13 April 2003 04:30 am, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> The only real way I can think of is to do some checks on if X is
> running, and if it is, use a graphical toolkit for X...if not, use a
> terminal based kit like ncurses.
>
> I like this idea.  I should download a liveCD to throw some code on and
> do tests.
>
> Is anyone against pyGTK or something like it?  pyQT?  wxPython?
>
> Is anyone against python? :)
>
> Cedric Veilleux wrote:
> >Why not simply use gentoo's livecd?
> >
> >The livecd can boot the user into a fully loaded console or X workstation,
> >with all the tools needed.
> >
> >The installer could be an additional tool on the liveCD system.. Anybody
> > knows a GUI abstration toolkit that can generate either terminal based or
> > X based interface, depending on what's available at runtime?
> >
> >This way the same installer could be used if X is not working or can't be
> >used.
> >
> >In both environment (terminal / X), multitasking would be possible so
> >experienced users could perform manual tasks while the installer is
> > waiting for input..
> >
> >
> >Just my 2 cents,
> >
> >Cedric
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

I'm all for doing it this way if everyone agrees.  I think it would be a 
decent start, definitely. 

I'm gonna head to sleep...it's almost 6am here.  But, I want to carry on 
a discussion with you about the cli portage viewer/manager.  I have been 
thinking about this one a lot, and want to hear other people's ideas on 
it. 

I'm wondering if this will increase the threads on gentoo-dev enough to 
warrant something like an IRC channel to do more of a realtime chat thing.

I'm pretty easy right now as i'm unemployed :)  If anyone wants to offer 
suggestions on how to take this step by step, it would be pretty cool.  
Project management isn't my forte. 

I like python...so I, myself would suggest a decent python/ncurses 
layout for the cli viewer/manager.  I'll start documenting my thoughts 
on this when the sun rises :) 

Alright,
nite...

Brian Harring wrote:

>While I think an X based installer would be nice, I think we might benefit 
>from first doing up a cli based installer first... at the very least, we 
>would need a cli portage viewer/manager, which would be a nice package on 
>it's own...
>
>Something also I thought about (and have been playing with), is having 
>essentially a two stage process for the installer- basically everything prior 
>to the chroot, and then everything after.  Why?  Well, it would be nice to 
>have the first half of the installer handle all the fdisking, untarring, etc.  
>From there, it chroots, emerge syncs and emerge portages, then pulls down the 
>newest version of itself, and runs that.
>
>From there, if we wanted we could probably setup some simple equivalent of a 
>quicky binary x server/svgalib for a x based installer.  Meanwhile, if we 
>have at least a basic cli installer setup, that would be immediately useful 
>for the cd's, and w/ an update capability, we could push a graphical 
>installer down to the user once we have it ready...
>Thoughts?
>~harring
>bdharring@wisc.edu
>
>On Sunday 13 April 2003 04:30 am, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
>  
>
>>The only real way I can think of is to do some checks on if X is
>>running, and if it is, use a graphical toolkit for X...if not, use a
>>terminal based kit like ncurses.
>>
>>I like this idea.  I should download a liveCD to throw some code on and
>>do tests.
>>
>>Is anyone against pyGTK or something like it?  pyQT?  wxPython?
>>
>>Is anyone against python? :)
>>
>>Cedric Veilleux wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Why not simply use gentoo's livecd?
>>>
>>>The livecd can boot the user into a fully loaded console or X workstation,
>>>with all the tools needed.
>>>
>>>The installer could be an additional tool on the liveCD system.. Anybody
>>>knows a GUI abstration toolkit that can generate either terminal based or
>>>X based interface, depending on what's available at runtime?
>>>
>>>This way the same installer could be used if X is not working or can't be
>>>used.
>>>
>>>In both environment (terminal / X), multitasking would be possible so
>>>experienced users could perform manual tasks while the installer is
>>>waiting for input..
>>>
>>>
>>>Just my 2 cents,
>>>
>>>Cedric
>>>      
>>>
>>--
>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>    
>>
>
>
>--
>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>  
>



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Cliff Free]

That sounds good to me.  I'm no P.M. either, but I'd be willing to help
with some grunt-work.(this is becoming an itch I want to scratch. :-D )

On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 05:47, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> I'm all for doing it this way if everyone agrees.  I think it would be a 
> decent start, definitely. 
> 
> I'm gonna head to sleep...it's almost 6am here.  But, I want to carry on 
> a discussion with you about the cli portage viewer/manager.  I have been 
> thinking about this one a lot, and want to hear other people's ideas on 
> it. 
> 
> I'm wondering if this will increase the threads on gentoo-dev enough to 
> warrant something like an IRC channel to do more of a realtime chat thing.
> 
> I'm pretty easy right now as i'm unemployed :)  If anyone wants to offer 
> suggestions on how to take this step by step, it would be pretty cool.  
> Project management isn't my forte. 
> 
> I like python...so I, myself would suggest a decent python/ncurses 
> layout for the cli viewer/manager.  I'll start documenting my thoughts 
> on this when the sun rises :) 
> 
> Alright,
> nite...
> 
> Brian Harring wrote:
> 
> >While I think an X based installer would be nice, I think we might benefit 
> >from first doing up a cli based installer first... at the very least, we 
> >would need a cli portage viewer/manager, which would be a nice package on 
> >it's own...
> >
> >Something also I thought about (and have been playing with), is having 
> >essentially a two stage process for the installer- basically everything prior 
> >to the chroot, and then everything after.  Why?  Well, it would be nice to 
> >have the first half of the installer handle all the fdisking, untarring, etc.  
> >From there, it chroots, emerge syncs and emerge portages, then pulls down the 
> >newest version of itself, and runs that.
> >
> >From there, if we wanted we could probably setup some simple equivalent of a 
> >quicky binary x server/svgalib for a x based installer.  Meanwhile, if we 
> >have at least a basic cli installer setup, that would be immediately useful 
> >for the cd's, and w/ an update capability, we could push a graphical 
> >installer down to the user once we have it ready...
> >Thoughts?
> >~harring
> >bdharring@wisc.edu
> >
> >On Sunday 13 April 2003 04:30 am, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>The only real way I can think of is to do some checks on if X is
> >>running, and if it is, use a graphical toolkit for X...if not, use a
> >>terminal based kit like ncurses.
> >>
> >>I like this idea.  I should download a liveCD to throw some code on and
> >>do tests.
> >>
> >>Is anyone against pyGTK or something like it?  pyQT?  wxPython?
> >>
> >>Is anyone against python? :)
> >>
> >>Cedric Veilleux wrote:
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Why not simply use gentoo's livecd?
> >>>
> >>>The livecd can boot the user into a fully loaded console or X workstation,
> >>>with all the tools needed.
> >>>
> >>>The installer could be an additional tool on the liveCD system.. Anybody
> >>>knows a GUI abstration toolkit that can generate either terminal based or
> >>>X based interface, depending on what's available at runtime?
> >>>
> >>>This way the same installer could be used if X is not working or can't be
> >>>used.
> >>>
> >>>In both environment (terminal / X), multitasking would be possible so
> >>>experienced users could perform manual tasks while the installer is
> >>>waiting for input..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Just my 2 cents,
> >>>
> >>>Cedric
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>--
> >>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
-- 
Cliff Free <anaranjado@bellsouth.net>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Alain Penders]

The main installer that was being worked on is Cursing Cow.  Both developers 
that were working on it recently left Gentoo, however.

If someone wanted to continue it's development, we probably can get the 
information needed from them.  From what I know, it's in pretty good 
condition...  part of it needed to be rewritten, but nothing major.

There's at least one (I think two) other installers in CVS, but I have no idea 
on their status or where they were left at.


Building a good installer goes beyond installing Gentoo.  For example, if the
installer has a module to configure networking, that module should be written
so that it works in the installer, but also in an after-install system 
configuration tool.   Installers also need to be able to handle updates or
"corrective installs", which means integration with configuration file 
management.

Alain



On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 05:04:10PM -0600, Jeff Rose wrote:
> Hello,
> 	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> interested or knowledgable enough.
> 	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> download, chroot... type of stuff?
> 	What do you think?
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Jeff Rose]

Alright, we are narrowing in.  I think starting with a CLI installer makes
sense because it will allow us to work on the true installation issues
rather than getting bogged down in gui code.  Lets use python.  That will
let us to use both Cursing Cow and Anaconda as great resources for just
about every step of the installation.  Once we feel like everything runs
smoothly on a variety of boxes then we can work on putting a gui on top.
(I think wxPython is the best solution.  Its clean, quick and extensive.
We could even use a gui builder to quickly experiment with a variety of
interface options.)  Anyway, that is for later.
	Building the installer as a set of install/configuration modules
is a great idea.  Lets start with defining those modules, and then we can
work on common code etc. before digging in.
	I propose that we break this whole idea into 3 main sections.
(Note: This has nothing to do with the stage1,2,3 tarballs.)

First, we need the basic gentoo installation:

- partitioning and file systems (RAID support? SCSI cards?)
- nic detection and module loading (Pretty much complete?)
- dns, routing, firewall stuff
- date & time
- keyboard, mouse, language
- cpu detection and compiler flags
- mounting partitions and getting stage tarball setup
- password & hostname
- fstab
- bootloader setup (interfaces to lilo and/or grub)

	Once the basic system is installed we move into part 2,
initial Portage system installation and configuration:

- Portage tree sync
- Setting use flags
- Kernel configuration
- build

	Now we have a basic system installed.  We can reboot into our new
kernel and start the final, most difficult, stage of installation: package
selection.  Rather than just copying everyone else and making large lists,
lets try to make this more intuitive.  Maybe we could have a few bundles
that people can select to get rolling quickly, but full control should
still given to the user.  Personally, I would rather just get a
working gnome/kde installation and then use a gui selection tool rather
than some clunky ncurses thing.  Maybe we could have a very lightweight
CLI manager that lets you select gnome, kde or just cli.  If they use
gnome or kde then we give them a slick gui manager once X starts up.  If
they use cli then they are probably setting up a server and they can deal
with using emerge as is.
	After looking through a bunch of code I agree we should really try
to use a lot of the existing stuff to get things started.  The LiveCD
pretty much does all the very initial stuff.  After that we can use the
cursing cow work to put together the install stage1 and part of stage2.
For stage 3, I think we should build a python gui (wxPython?) that doesn't
use kde or gnome specifically.  This is where a lot of the experimentation
will need to go.

Whooh...  What do you say?  I'll be graduating in a month so I won't be
able to work a whole lot until the summer begins, but I think we should
try to refine this idea/design a lot before diving in and hacking out
something that just works.

Peace!
Jeff


 On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alain Penders wrote:

> The main installer that was being worked on is Cursing Cow.  Both developers
> that were working on it recently left Gentoo, however.
>
> If someone wanted to continue it's development, we probably can get the
> information needed from them.  From what I know, it's in pretty good
> condition...  part of it needed to be rewritten, but nothing major.
>
> There's at least one (I think two) other installers in CVS, but I have no idea
> on their status or where they were left at.
>
>
> Building a good installer goes beyond installing Gentoo.  For example, if the
> installer has a module to configure networking, that module should be written
> so that it works in the installer, but also in an after-install system
> configuration tool.   Installers also need to be able to handle updates or
> "corrective installs", which means integration with configuration file
> management.
>
> Alain
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 05:04:10PM -0600, Jeff Rose wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> > few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> > thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> > gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> > anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> > then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> > because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> > That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> > much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> > interested or knowledgable enough.
> > 	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> > installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> > hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> > thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> > download, chroot... type of stuff?
> > 	What do you think?
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Graham Forest]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 549 bytes --]

On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:04:38 -0600 (MDT)
Jeff Rose <rosejn@Colorado.EDU> wrote:

> (I think wxPython is the best solution.  Its clean, quick and extensive.
> We could even use a gui builder to quickly experiment with a variety of
> interface options.)  Anyway, that is for later.

I would have to vote *against* wxPython. I've seen nothing but compilation problems involving that app (I think it compiles on about 1/3 of the machines my friends and I have tried on). Also, my boog to them about a compilation error has be unanswered so far.

Graham

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

I haven't had any problems with wxPython, and it should be pretty simple 
straight through.  I do think limiting the stage 3 to X11 is kind of 
presumptuious though.  My Blade 100 doesn't have a monitor hooked up, so 
an X11 install would in fact limit me to a Stage 2 or 1 install.

Anyway, once we get the CLI part, we should be able to design a decent 
gui around it.

I want to start a thread on what a gui/cli package manager should do, 
what info to present, etc.

Jeff Rose wrote:

>Alright, we are narrowing in.  I think starting with a CLI installer makes
>sense because it will allow us to work on the true installation issues
>rather than getting bogged down in gui code.  Lets use python.  That will
>let us to use both Cursing Cow and Anaconda as great resources for just
>about every step of the installation.  Once we feel like everything runs
>smoothly on a variety of boxes then we can work on putting a gui on top.
>(I think wxPython is the best solution.  Its clean, quick and extensive.
>We could even use a gui builder to quickly experiment with a variety of
>interface options.)  Anyway, that is for later.
>	Building the installer as a set of install/configuration modules
>is a great idea.  Lets start with defining those modules, and then we can
>work on common code etc. before digging in.
>	I propose that we break this whole idea into 3 main sections.
>(Note: This has nothing to do with the stage1,2,3 tarballs.)
>
>First, we need the basic gentoo installation:
>
>- partitioning and file systems (RAID support? SCSI cards?)
>- nic detection and module loading (Pretty much complete?)
>- dns, routing, firewall stuff
>- date & time
>- keyboard, mouse, language
>- cpu detection and compiler flags
>- mounting partitions and getting stage tarball setup
>- password & hostname
>- fstab
>- bootloader setup (interfaces to lilo and/or grub)
>
>	Once the basic system is installed we move into part 2,
>initial Portage system installation and configuration:
>
>- Portage tree sync
>- Setting use flags
>- Kernel configuration
>- build
>
>	Now we have a basic system installed.  We can reboot into our new
>kernel and start the final, most difficult, stage of installation: package
>selection.  Rather than just copying everyone else and making large lists,
>lets try to make this more intuitive.  Maybe we could have a few bundles
>that people can select to get rolling quickly, but full control should
>still given to the user.  Personally, I would rather just get a
>working gnome/kde installation and then use a gui selection tool rather
>than some clunky ncurses thing.  Maybe we could have a very lightweight
>CLI manager that lets you select gnome, kde or just cli.  If they use
>gnome or kde then we give them a slick gui manager once X starts up.  If
>they use cli then they are probably setting up a server and they can deal
>with using emerge as is.
>	After looking through a bunch of code I agree we should really try
>to use a lot of the existing stuff to get things started.  The LiveCD
>pretty much does all the very initial stuff.  After that we can use the
>cursing cow work to put together the install stage1 and part of stage2.
>For stage 3, I think we should build a python gui (wxPython?) that doesn't
>use kde or gnome specifically.  This is where a lot of the experimentation
>will need to go.
>
>Whooh...  What do you say?  I'll be graduating in a month so I won't be
>able to work a whole lot until the summer begins, but I think we should
>try to refine this idea/design a lot before diving in and hacking out
>something that just works.
>
>Peace!
>Jeff
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alain Penders wrote:
>
>  
>
>>The main installer that was being worked on is Cursing Cow.  Both developers
>>that were working on it recently left Gentoo, however.
>>
>>If someone wanted to continue it's development, we probably can get the
>>information needed from them.  From what I know, it's in pretty good
>>condition...  part of it needed to be rewritten, but nothing major.
>>
>>There's at least one (I think two) other installers in CVS, but I have no idea
>>on their status or where they were left at.
>>
>>
>>Building a good installer goes beyond installing Gentoo.  For example, if the
>>installer has a module to configure networking, that module should be written
>>so that it works in the installer, but also in an after-install system
>>configuration tool.   Installers also need to be able to handle updates or
>>"corrective installs", which means integration with configuration file
>>management.
>>
>>Alain
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 05:04:10PM -0600, Jeff Rose wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
>>>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
>>>thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
>>>gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
>>>anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
>>>then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
>>>because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
>>>That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
>>>much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
>>>interested or knowledgable enough.
>>>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
>>>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
>>>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
>>>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
>>>download, chroot... type of stuff?
>>>	What do you think?
>>>
>>>-Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>--
>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>--
>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>  
>



--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Cliff Free]

Well it now sounds like we're getting into the design issues, so I say
we get something formal started and save the flame-wars for when we're
making design decisions.  I like the ideas put-forth so far, and it
seems we have several interested people, so my question is: What's the
next step?

On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 16:36, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> I haven't had any problems with wxPython, and it should be pretty simple 
> straight through.  I do think limiting the stage 3 to X11 is kind of 
> presumptuious though.  My Blade 100 doesn't have a monitor hooked up, so 
> an X11 install would in fact limit me to a Stage 2 or 1 install.
> 
> Anyway, once we get the CLI part, we should be able to design a decent 
> gui around it.
> 
> I want to start a thread on what a gui/cli package manager should do, 
> what info to present, etc.
> 
> Jeff Rose wrote:
> 
> >Alright, we are narrowing in.  I think starting with a CLI installer makes
> >sense because it will allow us to work on the true installation issues
> >rather than getting bogged down in gui code.  Lets use python.  That will
> >let us to use both Cursing Cow and Anaconda as great resources for just
> >about every step of the installation.  Once we feel like everything runs
> >smoothly on a variety of boxes then we can work on putting a gui on top.
> >(I think wxPython is the best solution.  Its clean, quick and extensive.
> >We could even use a gui builder to quickly experiment with a variety of
> >interface options.)  Anyway, that is for later.
> >	Building the installer as a set of install/configuration modules
> >is a great idea.  Lets start with defining those modules, and then we can
> >work on common code etc. before digging in.
> >	I propose that we break this whole idea into 3 main sections.
> >(Note: This has nothing to do with the stage1,2,3 tarballs.)
> >
> >First, we need the basic gentoo installation:
> >
> >- partitioning and file systems (RAID support? SCSI cards?)
> >- nic detection and module loading (Pretty much complete?)
> >- dns, routing, firewall stuff
> >- date & time
> >- keyboard, mouse, language
> >- cpu detection and compiler flags
> >- mounting partitions and getting stage tarball setup
> >- password & hostname
> >- fstab
> >- bootloader setup (interfaces to lilo and/or grub)
> >
> >	Once the basic system is installed we move into part 2,
> >initial Portage system installation and configuration:
> >
> >- Portage tree sync
> >- Setting use flags
> >- Kernel configuration
> >- build
> >
> >	Now we have a basic system installed.  We can reboot into our new
> >kernel and start the final, most difficult, stage of installation: package
> >selection.  Rather than just copying everyone else and making large lists,
> >lets try to make this more intuitive.  Maybe we could have a few bundles
> >that people can select to get rolling quickly, but full control should
> >still given to the user.  Personally, I would rather just get a
> >working gnome/kde installation and then use a gui selection tool rather
> >than some clunky ncurses thing.  Maybe we could have a very lightweight
> >CLI manager that lets you select gnome, kde or just cli.  If they use
> >gnome or kde then we give them a slick gui manager once X starts up.  If
> >they use cli then they are probably setting up a server and they can deal
> >with using emerge as is.
> >	After looking through a bunch of code I agree we should really try
> >to use a lot of the existing stuff to get things started.  The LiveCD
> >pretty much does all the very initial stuff.  After that we can use the
> >cursing cow work to put together the install stage1 and part of stage2.
> >For stage 3, I think we should build a python gui (wxPython?) that doesn't
> >use kde or gnome specifically.  This is where a lot of the experimentation
> >will need to go.
> >
> >Whooh...  What do you say?  I'll be graduating in a month so I won't be
> >able to work a whole lot until the summer begins, but I think we should
> >try to refine this idea/design a lot before diving in and hacking out
> >something that just works.
> >
> >Peace!
> >Jeff
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alain Penders wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>The main installer that was being worked on is Cursing Cow.  Both developers
> >>that were working on it recently left Gentoo, however.
> >>
> >>If someone wanted to continue it's development, we probably can get the
> >>information needed from them.  From what I know, it's in pretty good
> >>condition...  part of it needed to be rewritten, but nothing major.
> >>
> >>There's at least one (I think two) other installers in CVS, but I have no idea
> >>on their status or where they were left at.
> >>
> >>
> >>Building a good installer goes beyond installing Gentoo.  For example, if the
> >>installer has a module to configure networking, that module should be written
> >>so that it works in the installer, but also in an after-install system
> >>configuration tool.   Installers also need to be able to handle updates or
> >>"corrective installs", which means integration with configuration file
> >>management.
> >>
> >>Alain
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 05:04:10PM -0600, Jeff Rose wrote:
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Hello,
> >>>	I'm pretty new to gentoo, but I am an instant convert.  Just a
> >>>few months of emerge bliss and now I'm an avid supporter.  Anyway, I'm
> >>>thinking about starting a summer project and I'm pondering the idea of a
> >>>gui installer.  I've been looking around a bit and it doesn't look like
> >>>anyone is working on one.  Is that true?  If there isn't already a project
> >>>then I think I'll give it a whirl.  I know, I know, gentoo is so great
> >>>because it allows you to customize and tweak the hell out of everything.
> >>>That is completely true.  So, an installer would have to allow just as
> >>>much but it could take care of the mundane details for those who aren't
> >>>interested or knowledgable enough.
> >>>	I haven't been around to see what people discuss in terms of the
> >>>installer so I'm sorry if this is all stuff that you have gone over
> >>>hundreds of times.  Even more minimal than a gui installer, have you
> >>>thought about adding more scripts to do the standard directory setup,
> >>>download, chroot... type of stuff?
> >>>	What do you think?
> >>>
> >>>-Jeff
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>--
> >>gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
-- 
Cliff Free <anaranjado@bellsouth.net>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Derek J. Belrose]

Well the X install is in the future it seems.  I think gentoo would 
benefit from a cli install/package manager more than it currently has.

I think we should sit down and chart out exactly how we want this to 
actually work.  I like Jeff's idea about the stages of install being 
done seperately...the basic installation, then portage sync then package 
selection.

I think that's a good starting ground for design conversations.  A 
couple of ideas that I have put forth...

It should work over serial line consoles as well as local displays.
It should be really easy for a beginner, yet possible for the most 
advanced user to take control at any point.


Cliff Free wrote:

>Well it now sounds like we're getting into the design issues, so I say
>we get something formal started and save the flame-wars for when we're
>making design decisions.  I like the ideas put-forth so far, and it
>seems we have several interested people, so my question is: What's the
>next step?
>
>  
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Alec Berryman]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1167 bytes --]

On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 17:33, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> Well the X install is in the future it seems.  I think gentoo would 
> benefit from a cli install/package manager more than it currently has.

<snip>

> It should work over serial line consoles as well as local displays.
> It should be really easy for a beginner, yet possible for the most 
> advanced user to take control at any point.

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=275364#275364

Yesterday "optilude" posted a "fast and flexible curses ebuild browser"
to the Gentoo Forums.

Requiring only bash and dialog, it would easily fit onto the
traditionally minimal Gentoo install CD and alongside ufed and
mirrorselect.  More importantly, because it works directly through
emerge (emerge `ebb` is the suggested invocation), using this ebuild
browser would preserve flexibility in the Gentoo install: for those who
would prefer to stick with the traditional emerge command-line
interface, this browser would not interfere with complete control over
emerge, but for those who do want the browser it is easily accessible. 
Give it a shot.

-- 

Alec Berryman <alec@lorax.wox.org>

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Stroller]

On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:49  am, Jeff Rose wrote:

> 	One of the major pains in the redhat like installers deals with
> package selection.  I think it is ridiculous to give people a list of
> a thousand packages and tell them to pick.  Especially since the
> package documentation is horrible.  Most people probably wouldn't know
> that its important for them to have the e2fsprogs installed, for
> example.  So,  this
> is the portion of the installer where I see the most room for
> innovation.

Hear! Hear!

I work (for my sins) in an evangelically M$-only environment. Our IT
Director has obviously read something in the newspapers recently about
Linux, so he dusted off his "old" Vaio c-series & installed DeadRat,
then brought it to me when it booted to Gnome & didn't set-up the circa
1180 x 480 screen resolution properly.

Some things I found:
- sendmail started at the default runlevel when I booted it up.
- he was logging in to the GUI as root, and didn't even now how to get
a virtual terminal using ctrl-alt-f1
- gcc wasn't installed and the VaioCam stuff needs installing from
source.
- RH8 allows you to copy the CD .iso files to hard-drive (in DOS for
instance), boot from a floppy, and then continue the install from these
HD images. Unfortunately, once the system is installed, the "control
panel" package manager doesn't know where to look for CDs, and fails
anytime you  try to add packages. I couldn't find an option to change
this at all, so ended up mounting the .iso files as `-o loop` (mind
you, at least I learned something), running rpm from the CLI, and
fulfilling dependencies by hand. Yeuch! It's cute & ironic that Gentoo
is intended for "power-users", as against RH's ease-of-use, yet such a
problem cannot arise with Gentoo.
- I want a Vaio c-series

Now, I rather like the current Gentoo install process, but I've been
using Linux for a couple of years already. A friend with only Windows
experience recently overheard me talking about Gentoo, and decided to
try it. Because he does not live locally, I can't visit him to help
when he has problems with his install, and I really feel I should have
recommended Mandrake.

We'll see how it goes when my friend resolves his present issue with an
older CD-ROM drive resolved, but I would not complain if an installer: -
helped with network card detection,
  and helped ensure that /etc/modules.autoload was suitable
- saved typing when partitioning
- automated the copying / extraction if the stage.tar files
- did the chroot automatically
- prompted the user for a root password
- insisted on adding an initial user
  (making sure it gave that user wheel privileges, so the user can `su`)
- offered to install a GUI of the user's choice
  from the KDE / Gnome grp tarballs
- did NOT add xstart to the default run-level, but added info on how to
  do so to the MOTD. AFAICT configuring X can be a a bit complicated,
and  autodetection of hardware could be quite a task to write. So IMO,
when  the system is booted for the first time, it should go to the
CLI, and  newbie users can't complain if X doesn't handle their
graphics card /  monitor: the answer is "it's not intended to do
that".
- on the same theme, I'd like the installation process to disable root
  logins to the GUI.
- some other stuff I can't think of at this time in the morning

It arises however that Gentoo has some very nice features for its new
users:
- Gentoo installs a simple Unix system, with no bloat.
  This really is what Unix is about: I often read in Linux newsgroups
posters asking "Why doesn't foo happen when I click bar in the network
options box of the Linux control panel".
  So many GUI configuration tools are available in modern distros that
they become, perhaps, less usable, and harder to support.
  Unix is NOT Windows - why do folks so often try to make it that way..?
Equally I feel that Gentoo probably shouldn't be marketed as a first
distro (and it's bit unfortunate that so many newbies consider
themselves power-users & like the idea of a "small, tight,
highly-optimised system", but have expections of GUI configuration
tools).
- Gentoo doesn't impose a particular GUI on you, or install 5.
  I remember finding the choice a bit overwhelming when I first tried
Mandrake.
- It's not Unix if cc isn't installed.
  I've met OS X sys admins who are afraid to install from source, and I
remember my trepidation at  the idea when I first started Linux.
Gentoo overcomes this VERY well.

So, anyway, I'm probably preaching to the converted here, and so
wasting my breath. I usually try not to advocate operating systems. I
guess I'm proposing balance in any installer that is written: if you
don't try to make it do too much, I think you could be very successful.

Stroller.




--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[William Hubbs]

Hi all,

I agree with this.

I don't think that we should have the livecd boot directly into an installer either.  I was comfortable using the current install process, and I think it should always be an option.

Thanks,

William

On Mon, Apr 14, 2003 at 11:18:52AM +0100, Stroller wrote:
> On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:49  am, Jeff Rose wrote:
> 
> > 	One of the major pains in the redhat like installers deals with
> > package selection.  I think it is ridiculous to give people a list of
> > a thousand packages and tell them to pick.  Especially since the
> > package documentation is horrible.  Most people probably wouldn't know
> > that its important for them to have the e2fsprogs installed, for
> > example.  So,  this
> > is the portion of the installer where I see the most room for
> > innovation.
> 
> Hear! Hear!
> 
> I work (for my sins) in an evangelically M$-only environment. Our IT
> Director has obviously read something in the newspapers recently about
> Linux, so he dusted off his "old" Vaio c-series & installed DeadRat,
> then brought it to me when it booted to Gnome & didn't set-up the circa
> 1180 x 480 screen resolution properly.
> 
> Some things I found:
> - sendmail started at the default runlevel when I booted it up.
> - he was logging in to the GUI as root, and didn't even now how to get
> a virtual terminal using ctrl-alt-f1
> - gcc wasn't installed and the VaioCam stuff needs installing from
> source.
> - RH8 allows you to copy the CD .iso files to hard-drive (in DOS for
> instance), boot from a floppy, and then continue the install from these
> HD images. Unfortunately, once the system is installed, the "control
> panel" package manager doesn't know where to look for CDs, and fails
> anytime you  try to add packages. I couldn't find an option to change
> this at all, so ended up mounting the .iso files as `-o loop` (mind
> you, at least I learned something), running rpm from the CLI, and
> fulfilling dependencies by hand. Yeuch! It's cute & ironic that Gentoo
> is intended for "power-users", as against RH's ease-of-use, yet such a
> problem cannot arise with Gentoo.
> - I want a Vaio c-series
> 
> Now, I rather like the current Gentoo install process, but I've been
> using Linux for a couple of years already. A friend with only Windows
> experience recently overheard me talking about Gentoo, and decided to
> try it. Because he does not live locally, I can't visit him to help
> when he has problems with his install, and I really feel I should have
> recommended Mandrake.
> 
> We'll see how it goes when my friend resolves his present issue with an
> older CD-ROM drive resolved, but I would not complain if an installer: -
> helped with network card detection,
>   and helped ensure that /etc/modules.autoload was suitable
> - saved typing when partitioning
> - automated the copying / extraction if the stage.tar files
> - did the chroot automatically
> - prompted the user for a root password
> - insisted on adding an initial user
>   (making sure it gave that user wheel privileges, so the user can `su`)
> - offered to install a GUI of the user's choice
>   from the KDE / Gnome grp tarballs
> - did NOT add xstart to the default run-level, but added info on how to
>   do so to the MOTD. AFAICT configuring X can be a a bit complicated,
> and  autodetection of hardware could be quite a task to write. So IMO,
> when  the system is booted for the first time, it should go to the
> CLI, and  newbie users can't complain if X doesn't handle their
> graphics card /  monitor: the answer is "it's not intended to do
> that".
> - on the same theme, I'd like the installation process to disable root
>   logins to the GUI.
> - some other stuff I can't think of at this time in the morning
> 
> It arises however that Gentoo has some very nice features for its new
> users:
> - Gentoo installs a simple Unix system, with no bloat.
>   This really is what Unix is about: I often read in Linux newsgroups
> posters asking "Why doesn't foo happen when I click bar in the network
> options box of the Linux control panel".
>   So many GUI configuration tools are available in modern distros that
> they become, perhaps, less usable, and harder to support.
>   Unix is NOT Windows - why do folks so often try to make it that way..?
> Equally I feel that Gentoo probably shouldn't be marketed as a first
> distro (and it's bit unfortunate that so many newbies consider
> themselves power-users & like the idea of a "small, tight,
> highly-optimised system", but have expections of GUI configuration
> tools).
> - Gentoo doesn't impose a particular GUI on you, or install 5.
>   I remember finding the choice a bit overwhelming when I first tried
> Mandrake.
> - It's not Unix if cc isn't installed.
>   I've met OS X sys admins who are afraid to install from source, and I
> remember my trepidation at  the idea when I first started Linux.
> Gentoo overcomes this VERY well.
> 
> So, anyway, I'm probably preaching to the converted here, and so
> wasting my breath. I usually try not to advocate operating systems. I
> guess I'm proposing balance in any installer that is written: if you
> don't try to make it do too much, I think you could be very successful.
> 
> Stroller.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[John Nilsson]

While talking installer, heres a thought:

Currently you can pick a few profiles when you install gentoo. How about
installing profiles via emerge?

ex.

# emerge sys-profiles/small-tightly-packed-email-server
# emerge profile
(renaming the system target to profile)

And for a somewhat diffrent topic:

why was the stable-unstable-masked scheme done the way it was? Wouldnt it be
easier to fork the ebuildtree into seperate trees?

ex.

# emerge stable/sys-apps/baselayout
# emerge all/x11-wm/ion-devel
# emerge local/x11-wm/testpackage

This would allow everyone and his dog to have his own seperate tree of what
he thinks is stable/suitable.

/John


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[DJ Cozatt]

On 13 Apr 2003 18:13:23 -0500
Alec Berryman <alec@lorax.wox.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 17:33, Derek J. Belrose wrote:
> > Well the X install is in the future it seems.  I think gentoo would 
> > benefit from a cli install/package manager more than it currently has.
> 

Saw several posts to this thread that included suggestions from other distro's. Did not see the slack pkg managemnt as a suggestion. It is based on ncurses  and includes sublevels of install types for "expert"
"newbie" and another can't remember the label now(full?). The idea is to give users a choice for controlling installation packages that is consistent with their knowledge level on what is installed. Don't know if it's gpl.
 There is also a Slackbuild script that does source installs. IIRC

> <snip>
> 
> > It should work over serial line consoles as well as local displays.
> > It should be really easy for a beginner, yet possible for the most 
> > advanced user to take control at any point.
> 
> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=275364#275364
> 
> Yesterday "optilude" posted a "fast and flexible curses ebuild browser"
> to the Gentoo Forums.
> 
> Requiring only bash and dialog, it would easily fit onto the
> traditionally minimal Gentoo install CD and alongside ufed and
> mirrorselect.  More importantly, because it works directly through
> emerge (emerge `ebb` is the suggested invocation), using this ebuild
> browser would preserve flexibility in the Gentoo install: for those who
> would prefer to stick with the traditional emerge command-line
> interface, this browser would not interfere with complete control over
> emerge, but for those who do want the browser it is easily accessible. 
> Give it a shot.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Alec Berryman <alec@lorax.wox.org>
> 

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Mark Bainter]

Jeff Rose [rosejn@Colorado.EDU] wrote:
> Well, I'm glad to see that people are interested.  After doing some
> initial research I have some thoughts.  First, we should decide on whether
> we want to have a terminal or X based installer.  Does anyone know how

You know.  I'm sooooooooooooo tired of this topic.  Is there
any way we can get this added to the FAQ, with maybe a link
to the oh, 20 or 30 threads about this that have popped up
already on this list?

While it won't stop everyone, more people read FAQs than 
search mailing lists before posting I'm sure.  At least it'd
cut it down a little right?

> well the generic vesa driver works for X?  I personally have battled with
> X so many times that I'm not sure I think its worth it for an installer.

No.  It isn't.  But not because of battling with it, but because
once you do it you instantly bloat the size of the install CD.  

Thanks, but no thanks.  -blech-

> (Although we could just use the RedHat stuff for autodetection etc. if we
> want to go that direction.)  Besides X we could use ncurses dialog
> widgets or another terminal gui package.  I was thinking it would be cool
> to use somethine lighter than X like svgalib.  I have no experience with

Ok, I'm going to summarize my opinion on this into just a short
blurb.  I'm sorry for not being more verbose, but I just went
through all this not more than a couple weeks ago.

A GUI installer lowers the bar for entry on gentoo.  Right now
many people who might want to use Gentoo, but are yet ready for
it do not attempt to use it because the install holds the bar
too high.  That's a good thing.  If we lower the bar so anyone's
grandma can install Gentoo, anyone's grandma will be flooding
the gentoo lists and forums with worthless questions that should
not need to be asked by someone using Gentoo.  

Gentoo is not a newbie distribution, and putting a pretty 
installer on the front of it, regardless of its flexibility,
presents a representation of the skill level required to
use and maintain it.  

So, once again, I vote NO on a GUI installer.

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Jeff Rose]

No problem then.  Don't work on it.

-Jeff

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Mark Bainter wrote:

> Jeff Rose [rosejn@Colorado.EDU] wrote:
> > Well, I'm glad to see that people are interested.  After doing some
> > initial research I have some thoughts.  First, we should decide on whether
> > we want to have a terminal or X based installer.  Does anyone know how
>
> You know.  I'm sooooooooooooo tired of this topic.  Is there
> any way we can get this added to the FAQ, with maybe a link
> to the oh, 20 or 30 threads about this that have popped up
> already on this list?
>
> While it won't stop everyone, more people read FAQs than
> search mailing lists before posting I'm sure.  At least it'd
> cut it down a little right?
>
> > well the generic vesa driver works for X?  I personally have battled with
> > X so many times that I'm not sure I think its worth it for an installer.
>
> No.  It isn't.  But not because of battling with it, but because
> once you do it you instantly bloat the size of the install CD.
>
> Thanks, but no thanks.  -blech-
>
> > (Although we could just use the RedHat stuff for autodetection etc. if we
> > want to go that direction.)  Besides X we could use ncurses dialog
> > widgets or another terminal gui package.  I was thinking it would be cool
> > to use somethine lighter than X like svgalib.  I have no experience with
>
> Ok, I'm going to summarize my opinion on this into just a short
> blurb.  I'm sorry for not being more verbose, but I just went
> through all this not more than a couple weeks ago.
>
> A GUI installer lowers the bar for entry on gentoo.  Right now
> many people who might want to use Gentoo, but are yet ready for
> it do not attempt to use it because the install holds the bar
> too high.  That's a good thing.  If we lower the bar so anyone's
> grandma can install Gentoo, anyone's grandma will be flooding
> the gentoo lists and forums with worthless questions that should
> not need to be asked by someone using Gentoo.
>
> Gentoo is not a newbie distribution, and putting a pretty
> installer on the front of it, regardless of its flexibility,
> presents a representation of the skill level required to
> use and maintain it.
>
> So, once again, I vote NO on a GUI installer.
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Abhishek Amit]

On 04:35 Fri 18 Apr     , Mark Bainter wrote:
> > well the generic vesa driver works for X?  I personally have battled with
> > X so many times that I'm not sure I think its worth it for an installer.
> 
> No.  It isn't.  But not because of battling with it, but because
> once you do it you instantly bloat the size of the install CD.  
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks.  -blech-
We already have a livecd with X on it... the game cd. Perhaps if someone
*really* wants a graphic installer there could be another livecd for it.


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[Evan Powers]

On Friday 18 April 2003 05:35 am, Mark Bainter wrote:
> A GUI installer lowers the bar for entry on gentoo.  Right now
> many people who might want to use Gentoo, but are yet ready for
> it do not attempt to use it because the install holds the bar
> too high.  That's a good thing.  If we lower the bar so anyone's
> grandma can install Gentoo, anyone's grandma will be flooding
> the gentoo lists and forums with worthless questions that should
> not need to be asked by someone using Gentoo.

1) Have you read gentoo-user recently? Everybody's grandmother already runs 
Gentoo, and already floots the list with worthless questions that "should not 
need to be asked by someone using Gentoo". Nobody cares, it's not a problem.

2) Improved convienience is something (nearly) every "power user" wants. The 
fact that a newbie can mistake convienience with simplicity is not my 
problem. I still want convienience. "emerge" itself is a perfect example of 
this--it looks simple. That doesn't mean it is.

2a) A GUI can improve the convienience of an install for "power users" who 
would be comfortable with the manual install, but don't want to be bothered. 
I /can/ perform the installation process manually, and I would fight to the 
death any attempt to remove that capability. But just because I /can/, 
doesn't mean I /want to/. If I want to install in a manner straightforward 
enough that it can be automated, it should be automated. That's why I have a 
computer.

2b) The fact that some newbie might look at this and think things are simple 
or idiot proof is not the "power user's" problem, and doesn't mean we "power 
users" should sacrifice the advantages it might offer us.

3) The install is probably the only thing in Gentoo someone slightly more 
skilled than necessary to admin a Red Hat install wouldn't be capable of. If 
that's true, why shouldn't we remove that barrier to entry? The point of 
Gentoo is not the elite nature of its current user base. It's the technology 
behind it. If we can give more classes of user access to our technology, why 
shouldn't we?

Okay, I'm done biting on the flaimbait.

Evan

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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GUI installer

[C. Brewer]

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On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:50:54 -0400
Evan Powers <powers.161@osu.edu> wrote:

> 3) The install is probably the only thing in Gentoo someone slightly more 
> skilled than necessary to admin a Red Hat install wouldn't be capable of. If 
> that's true, why shouldn't we remove that barrier to entry? The point of 
> Gentoo is not the elite nature of its current user base. It's the technology 
> behind it. If we can give more classes of user access to our technology, why 
> shouldn't we?

I'm all for this example. the reek of elitism has become pretty high on this list IMHO, with the snubbing of ideas, blowing off of peoples suggestions to improve this distro, the tendency to snap at people and slight them for their opinions seems to have become pretty commonplace here. Just because we don't write code for a living or have some dev-type email addy doesn't make any one of us less busy or less important, or less able to contribute. Besides, If I was looking for any of these things in a group of people on a ML, the already exist..they're just prefixed debian-*  :)

p.s.- I like the gentoo-user list, everyones grandma is trying to learn linux, which is what we all bitch about not enough of happening, and hell, when we already know the answers, it provides comedy and a good sense of community. So I say, bring on yer grandma!:P
-- 
Chuck Brewer
Registered Linux User #284015
Get my gpg public key at pgp.mit.edu!! Encrypted e-mail preferred.



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