[gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Hey all, 

1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.

Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely 
nothing to do with network.
So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or 
"cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.

2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.

On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups and 
lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.

So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"? 
Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?

What do you think?

Cheers, 
Andreas

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 20/02/17 21:47, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Hey all, 
>
> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>
> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely 
> nothing to do with network.
> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or 
> "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
>
> 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
>
> On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups and 
> lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.
>
> So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"? 
> Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Cheers, 
> Andreas
>
sys-print/cups seems perfectly logical .. its not unique to 'network
printing' ..

How about an actual listing of the remaining packages? We can throw them
into new cat's in the bikeshed ...

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Matthew Thode]

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On 02/20/2017 03:47 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Hey all, 
> 
> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
> 
> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely 
> nothing to do with network.
> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or 
> "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
> 
> 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
> 
> On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups and 
> lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.
> 
> So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"? 
> Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Cheers, 
> Andreas
> 

Moving stuff around seems sort of like busy work.  I can see the
reasoning and as mjeveritt mentioned in the other email a full category
rename may work just as well (instead of moving a couple of packages and
also a rename).  The question to me is 'is there a great enough need to
go through the pain of this?'.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 02/20/2017 11:11 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> On 02/20/2017 03:47 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:

>>
>> What do you think?

> The question to me is 'is there a great enough need to
> go through the pain of this?'.

I would agree with this sentiment. The lesson is to put more care into
naming categories to begin with so they are sufficiently broad to
contain a useful set of packages, but moving it around after the fact
causes more complexity than I would normally consider useful.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Lars Wendler]

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Hi,

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:47:17 +0100 Andreas K. Huettel wrote:

>Hey all, 
>
>1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>
>Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has
>absolutely nothing to do with network.
>So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware
>drivers, (or "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.

Like I said in IRC, I'm all in favor of this. "media-print" seems
reasonable as I don't consider printing related packages being
system-relevant (and thus no sys-print).

>2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
>
>On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are
>cups and lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.
>
>So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"? 
>Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
>
>What do you think?
>
>Cheers, 
>Andreas
>

Cheers
Lars

-- 
Lars Wendler
Gentoo package maintainer
GPG: 21CC CF02 4586 0A07 ED93  9F68 498F E765 960E 9B39

Attention! New gpg key! See
https://www.gentoofan.org/blog/index.php?/archives/9-New-gpg-keys.html

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2017, Lars Wendler wrote:

>> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>> 
>> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has
>> absolutely nothing to do with network.
>> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware
>> drivers, (or "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.

> Like I said in IRC, I'm all in favor of this. "media-print" seems
> reasonable as I don't consider printing related packages being
> system-relevant (and thus no sys-print).

+1

If the category is badly named, move the packages to something more
reasonable. Users don't expect printer drivers in net-*. (Also I
don't buy the argument that package moves won't be worth the effort.
Not doing the move means that any future packages will also have an
inappropriate name.)

No large preference for either media-print or sys-print here.

>> 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
>> 
>> On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are
>> cups and lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.

Do a complete move please. Leaving a category with two packages
doesn't make any sense.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 21/02/17 08:53, Lars Wendler wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:47:17 +0100 Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>
>> Hey all, 
>>
>> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>>
>> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has
>> absolutely nothing to do with network.
>> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware
>> drivers, (or "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
> Like I said in IRC, I'm all in favor of this. "media-print" seems
> reasonable as I don't consider printing related packages being
> system-relevant (and thus no sys-print).
>
>
Maybe we can shoot for "app-print" .. its not really a system package
any more than a networking one, nor a (multi-)media package per-se (cue
bikeshed on what 'media' means) .. so perhaps just 'app-print' or
'app-printing' .. I dunno ..

Just my 2c50 as usual ..

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Gordon Pettey]

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On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:05 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:

> On 21/02/17 08:53, Lars Wendler wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:47:17 +0100 Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> >
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
> >>
> >> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has
> >> absolutely nothing to do with network.
> >> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware
> >> drivers, (or "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
> > Like I said in IRC, I'm all in favor of this. "media-print" seems
> > reasonable as I don't consider printing related packages being
> > system-relevant (and thus no sys-print).
> >
> >
> Maybe we can shoot for "app-print" .. its not really a system package
> any more than a networking one, nor a (multi-)media package per-se (cue
> bikeshed on what 'media' means) .. so perhaps just 'app-print' or
> 'app-printing' .. I dunno ..
>

There is no requirement for category names to be x-y. Instead of forcing a
prefix-suffix pattern that doesn't really fit, just call it "printing".

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 22/02/17 02:48, Gordon Pettey wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:05 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org
> <mailto:m.j.everitt@iee.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 21/02/17 08:53, Lars Wendler wrote:
>     > On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:47:17 +0100 Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>     >
>     >> Hey all,
>     >>
>     >> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>     >>
>     >> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has
>     >> absolutely nothing to do with network.
>     >> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware
>     >> drivers, (or "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make
>     sense.
>     > Like I said in IRC, I'm all in favor of this. "media-print" seems
>     > reasonable as I don't consider printing related packages being
>     > system-relevant (and thus no sys-print).
>     >
>     >
>     Maybe we can shoot for "app-print" .. its not really a system package
>     any more than a networking one, nor a (multi-)media package per-se
>     (cue
>     bikeshed on what 'media' means) .. so perhaps just 'app-print' or
>     'app-printing' .. I dunno ..
>
>
> There is no requirement for category names to be x-y. Instead of
> forcing a prefix-suffix pattern that doesn't really fit, just call it
> "printing".
Whilst I don't think there is anything specified in PMS/devmanual ..
find me another category without X-Y pattern? I'm not sure about portage
internals, but there could be some exploiting of the fact this is
'normally' the case ..

I could, ofc, be mistaken ...

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Kent Fredric]

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 03:08:38 +0000
"M. J. Everitt" <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:

> find me another category without X-Y pattern?

cat /usr/portage/profiles/categories | grep -v '[-]'
virtual


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2017, Gordon Pettey wrote:

> There is no requirement for category names to be x-y.

https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1 "Category Names"

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 07:10:25 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2017, Gordon Pettey wrote:
> 
> > There is no requirement for category names to be x-y.
> 
> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1 "Category Names"

I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common pattern:

``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''

So "printing" sounds good. Prefix will not give users any useful
information anyway in this case.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:

>> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1 "Category Names"

> I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common pattern:

> ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
> Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''

It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
that pattern.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:50:45 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> 
> >> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1 "Category Names"
> 
> > I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common pattern:
> 
> > ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
> > Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''
> 
> It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
> exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
> that pattern.

I'm fine with this approach, but could PMS be updated to contain
more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
special exception for "virtual"''

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 23:58:50 +0300
Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:50:45 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > >>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:  
> > >> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1
> > >> "Category Names"  
> >   
> > > I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common
> > > pattern:  
> >   
> > > ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
> > > Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''  
> > 
> > It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
> > exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
> > that pattern.  
> 
> I'm fine with this approach, but could PMS be updated to contain
> more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> special exception for "virtual"''

It's not a "must". Also, putting that rule in and having the package
mangler enforce it can have unintended consequences: for example,
there used to be the mild nuisance of dealing with overlays which
didn't contain a categories list, and which did contain directories
named CVS all over the place.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:16:15 +0000 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 23:58:50 +0300
> Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:50:45 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > > >>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:  
> > > >> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1
> > > >> "Category Names"  
> > >   
> > > > I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common
> > > > pattern:  
> > >   
> > > > ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
> > > > Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''  
> > > 
> > > It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
> > > exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
> > > that pattern.  
> > 
> > I'm fine with this approach, but could PMS be updated to contain
> > more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> > ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> > special exception for "virtual"''
> 
> It's not a "must". Also, putting that rule in and having the package
> mangler enforce it can have unintended consequences: for example,
> there used to be the mild nuisance of dealing with overlays which
> didn't contain a categories list, and which did contain directories
> named CVS all over the place.
 
OK, let's say "should", or ever better explain details, e.g.:

  All newly created categories should follow "group-qualificator"
pattern, a name without hyphen is allowed for a "virtual" category
and for compatibility reasons in overlays.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Gordon Pettey]

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On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 4:54 AM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:16:15 +0000 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 23:58:50 +0300
> > Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:50:45 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > > > >>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > > > >> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1
> > > > >> "Category Names"
> > > >
> > > > > I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common
> > > > > pattern:
> > > >
> > > > > ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
> > > > > Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''
> > > >
> > > > It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
> > > > exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
> > > > that pattern.
> > >
> > > I'm fine with this approach, but could PMS be updated to contain
> > > more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> > > ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> > > special exception for "virtual"''
> >
> > It's not a "must". Also, putting that rule in and having the package
> > mangler enforce it can have unintended consequences: for example,
> > there used to be the mild nuisance of dealing with overlays which
> > didn't contain a categories list, and which did contain directories
> > named CVS all over the place.
>
> OK, let's say "should", or ever better explain details, e.g.:
>
>   All newly created categories should follow "group-qualificator"
> pattern, a name without hyphen is allowed for a "virtual" category
> and for compatibility reasons in overlays.
>

If PMS is going to specify that, there ought to be better reasoning then
"that's how it's always been done." What concrete benefit is there to
_requiring_ hyphenated categories?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 08:55:05 -0600 Gordon Pettey wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 4:54 AM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
[...]
> > OK, let's say "should", or ever better explain details, e.g.:
> >
> >   All newly created categories should follow "group-qualificator"
> > pattern, a name without hyphen is allowed for a "virtual" category
> > and for compatibility reasons in overlays.
> >
> 
> If PMS is going to specify that, there ought to be better reasoning then
> "that's how it's always been done." What concrete benefit is there to
> _requiring_ hyphenated categories?

Let's not mix different issues together: problems are much easier
to solve with "divide and conqueror" approach than with "pile up
and suffocate". PMS already have a statement about hyphen and all I
want is to make it clearer.

Why we have this requirement is another story. I'm not a PMS author
thus I can't give you an authoritative answer here. The standard
job is not to describe *why*, but to describe *how*.

As for why, IMO it makes it easier to navigate through the list of
categories. At least it was that way for me when I started to use
Gentoo.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[NP-Hardass]

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On 02/23/2017 03:58 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:50:45 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
>>
>>>> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1 "Category Names"
>>
>>> I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common pattern:
>>
>>> ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
>>> Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''
>>
>> It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
>> exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
>> that pattern.
> 
> I'm fine with this approach, but could PMS be updated to contain
> more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> special exception for "virtual"''
> 
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
> 

Might be best that this not be a PMS thing, but a Gentoo-specific
recommendation for developers conveyed via the Devmanual.  That's
typically the place where Gentoo specifics are added in, like "New
virtuals shouldn't be added without posting on the Gentoo mailing list,"
etc.

-- 
NP-Hardass


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 02/27/2017 03:30 AM, NP-Hardass wrote:
> Might be best that this not be a PMS thing, but a Gentoo-specific
> recommendation for developers conveyed via the Devmanual.  That's
> typically the place where Gentoo specifics are added in, like "New
> virtuals shouldn't be added without posting on the Gentoo mailing list,"
> etc.

+1

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 21:30:23 -0500 NP-Hardass wrote:
> On 02/23/2017 03:58 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:50:45 +0100 Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> >>
> >>>> https://projects.gentoo.org/pms/6/pms.html#x1-180003.1.1 "Category Names"
> >>
> >>> I don't see a requirement here, only note on most common pattern:
> >>
> >>> ``Note: A hyphen is not required because of the virtual category.
> >>> Usually, however, category names will contain a hyphen.''
> >>
> >> It is a note on what is the exclusive pattern, with the single
> >> exception of the virtual category. I believe that we shouldn't break
> >> that pattern.
> > 
> > I'm fine with this approach, but could PMS be updated to contain
> > more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> > ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> > special exception for "virtual"''
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
> > 
> 
> Might be best that this not be a PMS thing, but a Gentoo-specific
> recommendation for developers conveyed via the Devmanual.  That's
> typically the place where Gentoo specifics are added in, like "New
> virtuals shouldn't be added without posting on the Gentoo mailing list,"
> etc.

Maybe. But splitting documentation of one issue into several
documents may confuse readers. We already have "hyphen" in a
category name being mentioned in the PMS, so this should be either
clarified in the PMS or moved completely to the devmanual.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Mike Gilbert]

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Maybe. But splitting documentation of one issue into several
> documents may confuse readers. We already have "hyphen" in a
> category name being mentioned in the PMS, so this should be either
> clarified in the PMS or moved completely to the devmanual.

I would be in favor of the latter. A hyphen (or lack thereof) is legal
according to PMS, and we don't need to say anything more about it.

If we want to require a hyphen due to prior convention in Gentoo, it
should be moved to Gentoo-specific documentation.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Kent Fredric]

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On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 23:44:26 +0300
Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Maybe. But splitting documentation of one issue into several
> documents may confuse readers. We already have "hyphen" in a
> category name being mentioned in the PMS, so this should be either
> clarified in the PMS or moved completely to the devmanual.

Maybe add a "but this set of options may be limited by invidual vendor conventions"
or similar, indicating that although Portage Specification is one way, that there is
at least one known subset of stricter behaviour elsewhere.

That way people don't get tricked into reading PMS and then using it as grounds
to break Gentoo policies.

It *should* go without saying, but its better to be assume the reader doesn't know
what "should go without saying" entails. 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 02/28/2017 03:00 AM, Kent Fredric wrote:
> That way people don't get tricked into reading PMS and then using it as grounds
> to break Gentoo policies.
> 
> It *should* go without saying, but its better to be assume the reader doesn't know
> what "should go without saying" entails. 

Sounds odd to add something like this to a spec, that is an
organizational training issue.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andreas Sturmlechner]

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On Montag, 20. Februar 2017 22:47:17 CET Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
> 
> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely
> nothing to do with network.
> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or
> "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
> 
> 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
> 
> On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups
> and lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.
> 
> So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"?
> Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Cheers,
> Andreas

I would like to resume this discussion on the occasion of a new [shameless 
plug] package PAPPL that is to be packaged, see also [1], from the point 
before discussion went off on an X-Y categories tangent.

Here's a list of suggestions made for a new category so far, ordered from 
(seemingly) best- to least-liked:

media-print
sys-print
app-print(ing)


I agree net-print should not remain after such a move.


[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/829351

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:

> On Montag, 20. Februar 2017 22:47:17 CET Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>> 
>> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely
>> nothing to do with network.
>> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or
>> "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
>> 
>> 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
>> 
>> On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups
>> and lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.

Historically these were the first two packages in the net-print
category. Looks like it has grown from there, with later packages not
really fitting the category's definition.

>> So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"?
>> Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
>> 
>> What do you think?

> I would like to resume this discussion on the occasion of a new [shameless 
> plug] package PAPPL that is to be packaged, see also [1], from the point 
> before discussion went off on an X-Y categories tangent.

> Here's a list of suggestions made for a new category so far, ordered from 
> (seemingly) best- to least-liked:

> media-print
> sys-print
> app-print(ing)

media-print sounds good. media-gfx would be another possibility.
Scanning software like sane is already there.

Or we could find an umbrella term for printing and scanning, and move
both to that category.

> I agree net-print should not remain after such a move.

+1

> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/829351

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:00:48 +0100 Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:
> On Montag, 20. Februar 2017 22:47:17 CET Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > Hey all,
> > 
> > 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
> > 
> > Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely
> > nothing to do with network.
> > So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or
> > "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
> > 
> > 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
> > 
> > On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups
> > and lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.
> > 
> > So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"?
> > Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
> > 
> > What do you think?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Andreas
> 
> I would like to resume this discussion on the occasion of a new [shameless 
> plug] package PAPPL that is to be packaged, see also [1], from the point 
> before discussion went off on an X-Y categories tangent.
> 
> Here's a list of suggestions made for a new category so far, ordered from 
> (seemingly) best- to least-liked:
> 
> media-print
> sys-print
> app-print(ing)

IMHO sys-print is the best variant, since printing often requires
system privileges to set it up or change lots of settings.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Joshua Kinard]

On 12/17/2021 11:56, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:00:48 +0100 Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:
>> On Montag, 20. Februar 2017 22:47:17 CET Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> 1) Putting printer drivers into "net-print" is silly.
>>>
>>> Something that converts format a to device-specific format b has absolutely
>>> nothing to do with network.
>>> So, a new category "sys-print", emphasizing that it's hardware drivers, (or
>>> "cups-drv"?) (or maybe "media-print"?) might make sense.
>>>
>>> 2) After introducing that, however, "net-print" becomes nearly empty.
>>>
>>> On a quick glance, the only *network*-specific packages in there are cups
>>> and lprng. Maybe one or two more which I dont recognize.
>>>
>>> So move cups and lprng to "net-misc" and drop "net-print"?
>>> Or move them to new "sys-print" as well?
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andreas
>>
>> I would like to resume this discussion on the occasion of a new [shameless 
>> plug] package PAPPL that is to be packaged, see also [1], from the point 
>> before discussion went off on an X-Y categories tangent.
>>
>> Here's a list of suggestions made for a new category so far, ordered from 
>> (seemingly) best- to least-liked:
>>
>> media-print
>> sys-print
>> app-print(ing)
> 
> IMHO sys-print is the best variant, since printing often requires
> system privileges to set it up or change lots of settings.
> 
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko

Maybe consider three new top-level categories?:
  - print-drivers
  - print-filters
  - print-misc


Breaking out what's in the current net-print:

print-drivers/
   brlaser
   cndrvcups-common-lb
   cndrvcups-lb
   cnrdrvcups-lb
   cups-windows
   dymo-cups-drivers
   epson-inkjet-printer-escpr
   foo2zjs
   gutenprint
   hplip
   hplip-plugin
   kyocera-1x2x-mfp-driver
   pnm2ppa
   splix

print-filters/
   apsfilter
   c2esp
   cnijfilter2
   cups-filters
   kyocera-mita-ppds
   lexmark-upd-ppd
   foomatic-db
   foomatic-db-engine
   foomatic-db-ppds

print-misc/
   cups
   cups-bjnp
   cups-pdf
   cups-pk-helper
   fax4cups
   gtklp
   ink
   libinklevel
   mtink
   npadmin
   poster
   sshlpr

I haven't looked at any of the other existing categories and only sorted out
net-print packages into these new proposed categories, but I think *most*
printing stuff is going to fall into one of those three type of buckets.  A
fourth category, say print-scanning, may be able to be created specific to
scanning stuff, since that kinda has its own side-ecosystem.  If we
accumulate enough printing-related libraries, I guess print-libs may also
come into being (right now, I put libinklevel under print-misc since it's
the only lib* standout).

Idea behind a new top-level print-* group of categories is that printing is
a fairly large ecosystem, and lumping it all into something like media-print
or sys-print seems to miss the mark a bit.  media-* seems more aligned to
things like sound, video, and graphics (the digital kind), and less about
print media.  sys-print implies the system-level connections that a printer
has, and would be a good fit for all of the printer driver packages, but not
as good a fit for things like net-print/poster.

Also, the HOMEPAGE for foo2zjs is dead and up for sale.  That needs to be
changed to:
https://github.com/koenkooi/foo2zjs

-- 
Joshua Kinard
Gentoo/MIPS
kumba@gentoo.org
rsa6144/5C63F4E3F5C6C943 2015-04-27
177C 1972 1FB8 F254 BAD0 3E72 5C63 F4E3 F5C6 C943

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us.  And
our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."

--Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic

Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> Maybe consider three new top-level categories?:
>   - print-drivers
>   - print-filters
>   - print-misc

Only if you take care of them. printing project is somewhat understaffed.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Joshua Kinard]

On 12/18/2021 19:19, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>> Maybe consider three new top-level categories?:
>>   - print-drivers
>>   - print-filters
>>   - print-misc
> 
> Only if you take care of them. printing project is somewhat understaffed.
> 

I wish I had the time, as well as the knowledge.  I do have a networked HP
color laserjet at home (got it for a steal; toner is silly expensive,
though), but I only ever use that printer with my Windows-based systems and
have virtually avoided dealing with CUPS and all of its madness.  I made my
suggestion merely out of having an idea and wanting to contribute it to the
other ideas submitted.

-- 
Joshua Kinard
Gentoo/MIPS
kumba@gentoo.org
rsa6144/5C63F4E3F5C6C943 2015-04-27
177C 1972 1FB8 F254 BAD0 3E72 5C63 F4E3 F5C6 C943

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us.  And
our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."

--Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic

Re: [gentoo-dev] Printer drivers and net-print

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Sat, 18 Dec 2021, Joshua Kinard wrote:

> Maybe consider three new top-level categories?:
>   - print-drivers
>   - print-filters
>   - print-misc

net-print is already a small category with only 35 packages, so IMHO
splitting it up into three tiny categories wouldn't make much sense.

Also, splitting cups components between different categories looks a
little artificial.

> [...]

> Idea behind a new top-level print-* group of categories is that printing is
> a fairly large ecosystem, and lumping it all into something like media-print
> or sys-print seems to miss the mark a bit.  media-* seems more aligned to
> things like sound, video, and graphics (the digital kind), and less about
> print media.  sys-print implies the system-level connections that a printer
> has, and would be a good fit for all of the printer driver packages, but not
> as good a fit for things like net-print/poster.

Can we please keep things simple and just do a full category move [1]
from net-print to (e.g.) media-print?

Ulrich

[1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/2479de62249646b84932ab2801914ccc