[gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Martin Schwier]

Hello developers,

today I posted a bug (187475) about a minor issue about the useflag
libnotify not beeing in the default desktop profile. Me was told that
this sould be discussed on gentoo-dev. I can't really understand why
such a minor issue have to be discussed among all developers as there
are certainly much more importand things to do.

Beeing a user I have the feeling that bugs concerning such minor issues
aren't welcome among the gentoo developers. I consider it important for
gentoo to regard such details too achieve a more polished gnome desktop
experience by default as we have now.

To come to the bug, I'll comment Jakub Moc's last comment:

> As said above - bloating default profiles even more goes to gentoo-dev mailing
> list, so that people could comment. I for one am already annoyed enough by the
> nonsense being added there, such as USE=kerberos or USE=ldap.

I agree that there is too much enabled by default, but other things are
missing. I personally need kerberos and ldap but that shouldn't be the
default for most singel-user desktop installations.

So, these are my proposed changes for the default desktop profile:

+bash-completion
+bluetooth
+ffmpeg    (totem isn't much without it)
+libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead
of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button)
+ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
without further investigations. cups is already in)
+startup-notification
-fortran   (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up
the compile)
-kerberos
-ldap

I'm curious about your comments,

--
Martin Schwier
Gentoo user ;)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: default desktop profile

[Steve Long]

Martin Schwier wrote:
> +bash-completion
Well I for one can't stand bash-completion, but I guess I could always
disable it if others think it useful.

> +bluetooth
> +ffmpeg    (totem isn't much without it)
If it's just for a specific package, there is a default package.use iirc.

> +libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead
> of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button)
> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
> without further investigations. cups is already in)
> +startup-notification
> -fortran   (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up
> the compile)
I'd have to agree on that one. We've always installed without fortran, and
it was easy enough to switch it back in for the user who needed koctave.

> -kerberos
> -ldap
> 
Well I think those two are there so that samba works well as an Active
Directory server, or is integrated better into a Windoze setup. Kerberos
was only added recently for that reason, iirc. So I'd vote against losing
them for a default install, since integration with heterogeneous networks
is so important. Dunno if that can be managed better with package.use.

(If I haven't commented on one it means I don't have a preference either
way.)


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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Rémi Cardona]

Martin Schwier wrote:
> To come to the bug, I'll comment Jakub Moc's last comment:
> 
>> As said above - bloating default profiles even more goes to gentoo-dev mailing
>> list, so that people could comment. I for one am already annoyed enough by the
>> nonsense being added there, such as USE=kerberos or USE=ldap.

As Donnie recently talked/blogged about philosophy ...

One of the core Gentoo philosophies is that it's a meta distribution. As
such, the idea of "opt in" rather than "opt out" has been the motto for
quite a while. It's one defining trait of Gentoo.

I'll go with Jakub on this one. Adding more stuff is only a disservice
to everyone, including our users. Some use flags can do a lot of harm if
you try to take them out : directfb and xcb are 2 painful examples.

My 2 euro cents. :)

Rémi
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Kent Fredric]

On 8/2/07, Martin Schwier <martin@schwier.cc> wrote:
> Hello developers,
>
> today I posted a bug (187475) about a minor issue about the useflag
> libnotify not beeing in the default desktop profile. Me was told that
> this sould be discussed on gentoo-dev. I can't really understand why
> such a minor issue have to be discussed among all developers as there
> are certainly much more importand things to do.
>
> Beeing a user I have the feeling that bugs concerning such minor issues
> aren't welcome among the gentoo developers. I consider it important for
> gentoo to regard such details too achieve a more polished gnome desktop
> experience by default as we have now.
>
> To come to the bug, I'll comment Jakub Moc's last comment:
>
> > As said above - bloating default profiles even more goes to gentoo-dev mailing
> > list, so that people could comment. I for one am already annoyed enough by the
> > nonsense being added there, such as USE=kerberos or USE=ldap.
>
> I agree that there is too much enabled by default, but other things are
> missing. I personally need kerberos and ldap but that shouldn't be the
> default for most singel-user desktop installations.
>
> So, these are my proposed changes for the default desktop profile:
>
> +bash-completion
> +bluetooth

Most Probably dont have/want bluetooth. I know at most 1 linux users
who would use it.
> +ffmpeg    (totem isn't much without it)
> +libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead
> of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button)
> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
> without further investigations. cups is already in)

No, not everyone has a printer :P
> +startup-notification
> -fortran   (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up
> the compile)
> -kerberos
> -ldap
I just turned these off myself. Why?,, i like compiling for hours with
emerge --newuse ;)
The millions of lines of text make me feel geeky ;)  ( lol )

> I'm curious about your comments,
>
> --
> Martin Schwier
> Gentoo user ;)
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: default desktop profile

[Martin Schwier]

Rémi Cardona wrote:
> One of the core Gentoo philosophies is that it's a meta distribution. As
> such, the idea of "opt in" rather than "opt out" has been the motto for
> quite a while. It's one defining trait of Gentoo.

I second that. But gentoo isn't following this philosophies strictly.
The profiles are there for giving the user sensible defaults because it
isn't always clear which effect a particular useflag has. In the
libnotify case I don't expect a new user to know what he gets from this
flag and so he won't set it and his desktop experience suffers.

> I'll go with Jakub on this one. Adding more stuff is only a disservice
> to everyone, including our users.

Sure you have to balance the pros and cons of the stuff you add, but
there are numerous example in packages where this is not the case. Let
me give one:

The gnome meta ebuild pulls in way too much stuff. I always have to copy
it in my local overlay and have to remove epiphany, evolution, vino,
ekiga and more. There are no use flags to control this and I expect many
gnome users to use Firefox and Thunderbird instead of epiphany and
evolution. (many, not all).

If I use the official gnome ebuild instead of my edited one then 35 new
packages will be pulled in. Well I think *that* is bloat! The libnotify
useflag pulls in one 60k library that don't harm anyone.

It is worth to think very good about where to give the user the choice
to control his packages and which default to give him. In the libnotify
case I would vote to make it a static dependency and not useflag
controllable or at least set the useflag by default.

Kent Fredric wrote:
> No, not everyone has a printer :P

Okay, cups is in by default, but the drivers aren't... :-/
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Thursday 02 August 2007, Martin Schwier wrote:
> today I posted a bug (187475) about a minor issue about the useflag
> libnotify not beeing in the default desktop profile. Me was told that
> this sould be discussed on gentoo-dev. I can't really understand why
> such a minor issue have to be discussed among all developers as there
> are certainly much more importand things to do.
>
> Beeing a user I have the feeling that bugs concerning such minor issues
> aren't welcome among the gentoo developers. I consider it important for
> gentoo to regard such details too achieve a more polished gnome desktop
> experience by default as we have now.

the profiles are made up of input from many developers, so having the decision 
made by a single one in bugzilla is incorrect.  the topic is also subject to 
debate and bugzilla is not the forum for wide debating in Gentoo.

> -fortran   (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up
> the compile)

fortran is an expected default in the Linux world, so you get it by default.
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: default desktop profile

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Martin Schwier wrote:
<snip>
> 
> The gnome meta ebuild pulls in way too much stuff. I always have to copy
> it in my local overlay and have to remove epiphany, evolution, vino,
> ekiga and more. There are no use flags to control this and I expect many
> gnome users to use Firefox and Thunderbird instead of epiphany and
> evolution. (many, not all).
> 
> If I use the official gnome ebuild instead of my edited one then 35 new
> packages will be pulled in. Well I think *that* is bloat! The libnotify
> useflag pulls in one 60k library that don't harm anyone.
> 
<more snip>

The official Gnome meta ebuild pulls in what upstream considers to be 
the Gnome Desktop - thats why it is there, the Gnome herd will *not* 
change that.  As a convenience, they have provided the gnome-light meta 
ebuild.  If Gnome pulls in too much, then take a look at gnome-light. 
If that pulls in too little, then continue to work on it in your 
overlay, the Gnome herd does not have time to create multiple ebuilds of 
the "official" upstream Gnome desktop just because some users don't want 
this or that, they provide it as a convenience, and that is all.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: default desktop profile

[Jean-Marc Hengen]

Martin Schwier wrote:
> In the libnotify
> case I would vote to make it a static dependency and not useflag
> controllable or at least set the useflag by default.

I see this so:
If upstream thinks, this is an option, the ebuild should reflect this.
If upstream thinks, this is vital, the ebuild should also reflect this.
The decision, if some feature should always be included, when a package
is compiled, should be made by upstream, not by gentoo. There may be
cases, where it is wise to not follow this rule for various reason, but
this should be made by the package maintainer per package and not be a
general rule. This is what makes gentoo a distribution of choices. I
don't like feature A, upstream doesn't it's vital and gentoo give me the
ability to disable/enable the feature A via USE-flags.

As a conclusion, even a lot of peoples likes libnotify, it is not a
reason to make it a static dependency and not USE-flag controllable.
There may be users, like me, who don't like libnotify. If this is seen
as a major profit for most users, doesn't make a lot of problems, its
USE-flag could be enabled by default. Myself, who would not prefer to
have it enabled by default, can easily reverse that in make.conf.

This is only an opinion from a user and reflects a part, on how I see
gentoo and what it makes it for me the best distribution out there.

Greetings,
Jean-Marc Hengen
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
> So, these are my proposed changes for the default desktop profile:
> 
> +bash-completion
> +bluetooth
> +ffmpeg    (totem isn't much without it)
> +libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead
> of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button)
> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
> without further investigations. cups is already in)
> +startup-notification

Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there
is a *very* good reason.  I really don't have a problem with any of
these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers.

Also, if these *were* to get added, they wouldn't be added to the 2007.0
profiles and would wait for 2007.1's profiles, which we should be
starting up some time soon.  I usually ask for these sorts of
suggestions over on the gentoo-releng mailing list near the beginning of
our release cycle.

> -fortran   (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up
> the compile)

... (I have no comments on this one)

> -kerberos
> -ldap

These aren't going anywhere so long as they're needed for proper Active
Directory connectivity.  I added them for a reason and don't really
intend on removing them.  As I said, I consider the ability to
intercommunicate with Active Directory to be a *vital* capability for a
desktop... any desktop.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
>> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
>> without further investigations. cups is already in)
>> +startup-notification
> 
> Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there
> is a *very* good reason.  I really don't have a problem with any of
> these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers.

I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us
to make printers easier to set up.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Rémi Cardona]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
>> +startup-notification

Actually, rereading that list, I wouldn't mind adding this one. Gnome
and a couple of core Gnome apps hard-depend on it, as I am must sure
must be the case in KDE.

Samuli also told me that xcfe4 really needed it anyway. I guess this is
one where most people would easily agree on adding it to the desktop
profile.

Cheers,
Rémi
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 18:53 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
> >> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
> >> without further investigations. cups is already in)
> >> +startup-notification
> > 
> > Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there
> > is a *very* good reason.  I really don't have a problem with any of
> > these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers.
> 
> I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us
> to make printers easier to set up.

This one should be on, actually.  It was enabled for 2006.1 but somehow
got turned back off for 2007.0's release.

I'll make sure it is enabled on the 2007.1 release on the desktop
profiles.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:09 +0200, Rémi Cardona wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
> >> +startup-notification
> 
> Actually, rereading that list, I wouldn't mind adding this one. Gnome
> and a couple of core Gnome apps hard-depend on it, as I am must sure
> must be the case in KDE.
> 
> Samuli also told me that xcfe4 really needed it anyway. I guess this is
> one where most people would easily agree on adding it to the desktop
> profile.

I've added ppds and startup-notification to the default USE for the
newly-created x86 development profiles for 2007.1, which I'd ask people
to base any change requests on, rather than the 2007.0 profiles.
Basically, if it isn't in the 2007.1 profile and you want it, ask for it
on gentoo-releng.  If we think we need more discussion on a particular
USE flag, we'll bring it back here.

One thing to remember, I do *not* consider our desktop profiles to be
"opt-in" but rather to be a good out-of-box experience for the user.  If
you want to think of the desktop profiles as bloated, feel free to use
the versioned profile (like 2007.0) instead, as it will be much closer
to the opt-in idea and only has USE flags which are common between
desktops and servers and are much less likely to get additional flags
added to them, since I want these to be as minimal as possible while
still providing important functionality.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Petteri Räty]

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Chris Gianelloni kirjoitti:
> 
> One thing to remember, I do *not* consider our desktop profiles to be
> "opt-in" but rather to be a good out-of-box experience for the user.  If
> you want to think of the desktop profiles as bloated, feel free to use
> the versioned profile (like 2007.0) instead, as it will be much closer
> to the opt-in idea and only has USE flags which are common between
> desktops and servers and are much less likely to get additional flags
> added to them, since I want these to be as minimal as possible while
> still providing important functionality.
> 

That sounds good to me. It's easy enough to turn off use flags too.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Andrew Gaffney]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 18:53 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
>>>> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
>>>> without further investigations. cups is already in)
>>>> +startup-notification
>>> Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there
>>> is a *very* good reason.  I really don't have a problem with any of
>>> these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers.
>> I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us
>> to make printers easier to set up.
> 
> This one should be on, actually.  It was enabled for 2006.1 but somehow
> got turned back off for 2007.0's release.

We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:56 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 18:53 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> >> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote:
> >>>> +ppds      (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
> >>>> without further investigations. cups is already in)
> >>>> +startup-notification
> >>> Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there
> >>> is a *very* good reason.  I really don't have a problem with any of
> >>> these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers.
> >> I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us
> >> to make printers easier to set up.
> > 
> > This one should be on, actually.  It was enabled for 2006.1 but somehow
> > got turned back off for 2007.0's release.
> 
> We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.

Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the LiveDVD
will have everything on it, as it does now.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Roy Marples]

On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Of course, the LiveDVD
> will have everything on it, as it does now.



Pretty please for ext4 for the ricers that just *have* to try it and
need to recover their systems. It's a good ask as it is *in* the kernel
even if marked experimental.

Thanks

Roy

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 23:39 +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > Of course, the LiveDVD
> > will have everything on it, as it does now.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty please for ext4 for the ricers that just *have* to try it and
> need to recover their systems. It's a good ask as it is *in* the kernel
> even if marked experimental.

I don't even know what ext4 needs, but if someone files a bug, I'll add
it to the specs.  Otherwise, I'll forget.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Roy Marples]

On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 16:18 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 23:39 +0100, Roy Marples wrote: 
> > Pretty please for ext4 for the ricers that just *have* to try it and
> > need to recover their systems. It's a good ask as it is *in* the kernel
> > even if marked experimental.
> 
> I don't even know what ext4 needs, but if someone files a bug, I'll add
> it to the specs.  Otherwise, I'll forget.

Just the kernel modules and sys-fs/e2fsprogs-1.4 or better :)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Luis Medinas]

On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
> remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
> much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
> rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
> produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the LiveDVD
> will have everything on it, as it does now.
> 
Sad to know that our livecd will be xfce based. I think the current live
cd gnome based provides a much better environment than xfce and that is
good for the users who will preform and instalation. 
Of course you don't need to build all gnome for the livecd and i bet
there will be enough space for another tools (a graphical package
manager!?).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Samuli Suominen]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.
> Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
> remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
> much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
> rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
> produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the
> LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now.

Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd?
Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

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Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 09:08 +0300, Samuli Suominen a écrit :
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.
> > Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
> > remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
> > much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
> > rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
> > produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the
> > LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now.
> 
> Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd?
> Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so.

why would you need a mailer at all on a livecd ? Is the livecd intended
to provide a full desktop experience whichever desktop is chosen or is
it just provided as a way to have something to do while you are
installing and/or tools to fix your install ?

if it's not intended to be a full desktop experience (garnome does it
very well for gnome afaik) then you could install only gnome-light for a
start.
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Andrew Gaffney]

Luis Medinas wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>> Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
>> remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
>> much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
>> rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
>> produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the LiveDVD
>> will have everything on it, as it does now.
>>
> Sad to know that our livecd will be xfce based. I think the current live
> cd gnome based provides a much better environment than xfce and that is
> good for the users who will preform and instalation. 
> Of course you don't need to build all gnome for the livecd and i bet
> there will be enough space for another tools (a graphical package
> manager!?).

The main reason that releng has decided to replace gnome with xfce for the 
LiveCD is space. We (Kugelfang, wolf31o2, and I) had a hell of a time this last 
release getting the x86/amd64 LiveCDs under 700MB, mostly because many packages 
(including gnome) grew a bit since the last release. With no differences other 
than s:gnome-base/gnome:xfce-base/xfce4:, the resulting ISO dropped ~105MB. 
That's a *lot* of breathing room and a *lot* less headaches for the people 
building the media.

Unless you can magically pull some space out of your butt, don't complain :P

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Andrew Gaffney]

Samuli Suominen wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>>> We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.
>> Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
>> remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
>> much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
>> rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
>> produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the
>> LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now.
> 
> Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd?
> Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so.

The saved space (~105MB with my test build right after 2007.0) would only allow 
for one stage tarball (the i686 2007.0 stage3 was 103MB, for example), and then 
we'd be right back where we were with keeping the ISO under 700MB.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Andrew Gaffney]

Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote:
> Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 09:08 +0300, Samuli Suominen a écrit :
>> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700
>> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.
>>> Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
>>> remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
>>> much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
>>> rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
>>> produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the
>>> LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now.
>> Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd?
>> Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so.
> 
> why would you need a mailer at all on a livecd ? Is the livecd intended
> to provide a full desktop experience whichever desktop is chosen or is
> it just provided as a way to have something to do while you are
> installing and/or tools to fix your install ?
> 
> if it's not intended to be a full desktop experience (garnome does it
> very well for gnome afaik) then you could install only gnome-light for a
> start.

The LiveCD is intended to replace the separate GRP and universal CDs when 
combined with the installer. The installer uses the packages installed on the CD 
to do the new install. I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up on 
this list. You people need to pay attention ;)

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

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Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 16:23 -0500, Andrew Gaffney a écrit :
> The LiveCD is intended to replace the separate GRP and universal CDs when 
> combined with the installer. The installer uses the packages installed on the CD 
> to do the new install. I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up on 
> this list. You people need to pay attention ;)
> 
err, sorry I'm here since 9th june only.
I should have check the archives :)
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Andrew Gaffney]

Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote:
> Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 16:23 -0500, Andrew Gaffney a écrit :
>> The LiveCD is intended to replace the separate GRP and universal CDs when 
>> combined with the installer. The installer uses the packages installed on the CD 
>> to do the new install. I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up on 
>> this list. You people need to pay attention ;)
>>
> err, sorry I'm here since 9th june only.
> I should have check the archives :)

I guess I'll let it slide this time, then :)

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 04:31 +0000, Luis Medinas wrote:
> Of course you don't need to build all gnome for the livecd and i bet

Umm... yes, we do.

Remember that an offline install requires the packages to exist on the
LiveCD.  If we did only half of GNOME, nobody could install GNOME.  The
problem is that packages keep growing in size, so we have to reduce the
number of packages every release to keep up with the growing space
requirements.  This is starting to become impossible while still
maintaining the package set on the CD.  Honestly, I was even considering
switching to fluxbox on the CD so we could include more useful packages.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 09:08 +0300, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down.
> > Thanks.  I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't
> > remember what it was off the top of my head.  Luckily, this won't be
> > much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce
> > rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to
> > produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD.  Of course, the
> > LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now.
> 
> Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd?

Never.  If you want stages, get the LiveDVD.

> Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so.

Well, I would likely be keeping Evolution, since AD/Exchange
capabilities are something I consider pretty important for anyone in a
corporate world.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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