[gentoo-dev] New lists and their usage

[gentoo-dev] New lists and their usage

[Chris Gianelloni]

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OK.  I'm sure this will probably bring upon a ton of responses, but
let's hope they all stay on-topic.  I'm not posting this to
gentoo-project since I think it belongs here until this is agreed upon.

So, let's get started:

gentoo-dev: This list is for technical discussion, primarily between
developers, about development and development-related issues that
directly affect the tree or current projects.  For now, no changes are
made to this list.

gentoo-dev-announce: This is the announcement list for
development-related stuff.  Now, there's two ideas for how to run the
list, that I can think of, but I'm sure there's others.

- Make the list set reply-to to gentoo-dev and automatically copy any
messages from this list to gentoo-dev...

- Make the list *not* set *any* reply-to, nor strip it, and allow people
to use the list to announce development-related stuff from *any* list...
For example, if I'm about to start a discussion on possible changes to
the releases, I could send a message to gentoo-dev-announce, which will
start the thread, with gentoo-releng set as the reply-to.  I would be
responsible for making sure the email was also sent to gentoo-releng
myself.

gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
supposed to be used for?

Anyway, I'd like for us to come up with an agreement on the usage of
these lists so we can put them into the policies and start using them
that way.  Remember that there hasn't been consensus (yet) on the usage
of the lists, so we need to do that as soon as possible.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New lists and their usage

[Nathan Smith]

On 7/20/07, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
> supposed to be used for?

>From what I can tell by reading the logs of the council meeting [1],
the purpose of -project is to keep "all the flamewars and bitching"
off the -dev list.  However, it seems that moderating -dev should
accomplish that purpose, so I question the need for its existence.  If
it is not required reading for developers, how is it substantively
different from -user?

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20070614.txt

--
Nathan Smith
Gentoo/PowerPC AT
ndansmith@gmail.com
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] New lists and their usage

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> gentoo-dev-announce: This is the announcement list for
> development-related stuff.  Now, there's two ideas for how to run the
> list, that I can think of, but I'm sure there's others.
> 
> - Make the list set reply-to to gentoo-dev and automatically copy any
> messages from this list to gentoo-dev...

The auto-copy should probably be kept regardless of what we do with
Reply-To.

> - Make the list *not* set *any* reply-to, nor strip it, and allow
> people to use the list to announce development-related stuff from
> *any* list... For example, if I'm about to start a discussion on
> possible changes to the releases, I could send a message to
> gentoo-dev-announce, which will start the thread, with gentoo-releng
> set as the reply-to.  I would be responsible for making sure the
> email was also sent to gentoo-releng myself.

Hm, I hadn't thought about that but I like it. I like it a lot. It's so
sexy!

Thanks,
Donnie

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[gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Duncan]

"Nathan Smith" <ndansmith@gmail.com> posted
b49843710707201553p29dcfcffq6b7f2710154767e4@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:53:02 -0700:

> On 7/20/07, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
>> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
>> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
>> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
>> supposed to be used for?
> 
> From what I can tell by reading the logs of the council meeting [1], the
> purpose of -project is to keep "all the flamewars and bitching" off the
> -dev list.  However, it seems that moderating -dev should accomplish
> that purpose, so I question the need for its existence.  If it is not
> required reading for developers, how is it substantively different from
> -user?
> 
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20070614.txt

Hopefully, dev won't end up needing moderated after all, after project is 
up and running well, and the outgoing council decides to take a pass on 
it at their last (August) meeting, both to let that happen, and to let 
the new council make that decision.

project will ideally reduce dev traffic by half, possibly more, if people 
can self-moderate, thus hopefully eliminating the need for moderation.  
Given the controversial aspect, if self-moderation can work, it'd be 
better to keep it to that.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Duncan]

Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> posted
1184970024.8424.22.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org, excerpted below, on  Fri,
20 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700:

> gentoo-dev: This list is for technical discussion, primarily between
> developers, about development and development-related issues that
> directly affect the tree or current projects.  For now, no changes are
> made to this list.

++

> gentoo-dev-announce: This is the announcement list for
> development-related stuff.  Now, there's two ideas for how to run the
> list, that I can think of, but I'm sure there's others.
> 
> - Make the list set reply-to to gentoo-dev and automatically copy any
> messages from this list to gentoo-dev...
> 
> - Make the list *not* set *any* reply-to, nor strip it, and allow people
> to use the list to announce development-related stuff from *any* list...
> For example, if I'm about to start a discussion on possible changes to
> the releases, I could send a message to gentoo-dev-announce, which will
> start the thread, with gentoo-releng set as the reply-to.  I would be
> responsible for making sure the email was also sent to gentoo-releng
> myself.

The latter would be nice if it would work.  It might if it's restricted 
to dev posts, but the former may be necessary.
 
> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
> supposed to be used for?

My take is that if it's gentoo devel but not tech in nature, it goes 
there by default.  The short term rule of thumb could then be post it 
there if in doubt whether it goes here or there, and if it's posted here 
and any dev complains, it goes there, regardless.  (Once the current 
subscription snafus get worked out, I'd hope by Monday or Tuesday at the 
latest.)

By way of example, your original thread starter could have been xposted 
here and there, with replies sent there, until a decision had been made.  
Once a decision was reached, it would be posted to announce and here and 
there, all three, but the pre-decision discussion would have been there 
save the initial xposted thread starter, keeping this list spam-free for 
those that aren't interested.  Two posts here, the original question and 
decision announcement, likely > 10 posts, maybe 100 or more if it's 
controversial there, kept off this list.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] New lists and their usage

[Kumba]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
> supposed to be used for?

I figured my explanation in Bug #181368 was enough to get the idea across, in 
that, anything "non-technical" goes here.  Loosely translated, and based on my 
understanding from a debian developer on what winds up on their debian-project 
list, it pretty much means "everything else".

Whether that's what really becomes of the list, I dunno.  That's part of the fun 
for me.  I guess what I current envision is it becoming what -dev is today, 
minus all the technical discussions.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Richard Freeman]

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Duncan wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> posted
>> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
>> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
>> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
>> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
>> supposed to be used for?
> 
> My take is that if it's gentoo devel but not tech in nature, it goes 
> there by default.  The short term rule of thumb could then be post it 
> there if in doubt whether it goes here or there, and if it's posted here 
> and any dev complains, it goes there, regardless.  (Once the current 
> subscription snafus get worked out, I'd hope by Monday or Tuesday at the 
> latest.)
> 

I think this is a good idea.  If the only thing that goes on -project is
flame wars then the list will die and all the flamewars will just come
back to -dev...

I'd think that anything non-technical related to the gentoo distro that
is at a high level should probably go on -project.  That might be a
place to announce council agendas, council nominations, this email
thread, etc.

Some seem to be of the mind that -project should be mainly for stuff
that no developer would want to look at anyway.  The problem with that
is the whole reason that stuff gets posted to -dev is that people want
to interact with the -devs - so the traffic will go wherever the devs
are.  If you want to keep -dev on technical topics then the interesting
non-technical topics will have to go to -project so that the list is
taken seriously.  Otherwise all the noise will just be back on -dev....
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Denis Dupeyron]

On 7/21/07, Nathan Smith <ndansmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> From what I can tell by reading the logs of the council meeting [1],
> the purpose of -project is to keep "all the flamewars and bitching"
> off the -dev list.

On 7/21/07, Richard Freeman <rich@thefreemanclan.net> wrote:
> I think this is a good idea.  If the only thing that goes on -project is
> flame wars then the list will die and all the flamewars will just come
> back to -dev...

What makes you guys think that flamewars or bitching will be tolerated
on any of our lists ?

Denis.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Ryan Hill]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> gentoo-dev: This list is for technical discussion, primarily between
> developers, about development and development-related issues that
> directly affect the tree or current projects.  For now, no changes are
> made to this list.

technical discussion

> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not really
> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be pretty much
> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another project-specific
> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this list is
> supposed to be used for?

non-technical discussion

;)

at least that's how i see it.  for example, based on the last few weeks
of threads here on -dev:

virtual/x11 cleanups			-dev
baselayout-2 stabilization		-dev
new lists and their usage		-project
zombieswift/new devs			-project
council/trustee nominations		-project
paludis/emacs overlay			-dev
math-proof herd				-dev
qmail eclass				-dev
more photos on planet			-project
random flaming				/dev/null

i don't know about last rites -  i'd say -dev since they're about
ebuilds being removed.

-- 
dirtyepic    you'd be tossed up or wash up, the narrator relates
 gentoo org          in a spartan antarctican walk for many days
  9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3  5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8)

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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Jan Kundrát]

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Ryan Hill wrote:
> zombieswift/new devs			-project
> council/trustee nominations		-project

Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.

> more photos on planet			-project

Perhaps a note on -core, again.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:26:07 +0200
Jan Kundrát <jkt@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ryan Hill wrote:
> > zombieswift/new devs			-project
> > council/trustee nominations		-project
> 
> Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.

Ah, you mean you thought -project was a dumping ground where people
could be sent when you wanted to ignore someone?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Richard Freeman]

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Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Ryan Hill wrote:
>> zombieswift/new devs			-project
>> council/trustee nominations		-project
> 
> Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.
> 

I thought the goal was more to separate technical and non-technical
content - as most of the heavy-reply emails on -dev were non-technical
in nature.  The politics/etc could go on -project.

As somebody else pointed out in a reply to one of my emails (which I
totally agree with) - flames (aka poisonous content) aren't welcome
anywhere.

If anything of any importance at all gets discussed on -dev, then all
the non-technical stuff will end up on -dev as well and nothing will be
accomplished by having the new list.  Developers who are interested in
participating in politics (devrel, CoC debates, user-relation
discussions, etc) should subscribe to -project.

One thing I want to caution is a potentially-dangerous mindset that a
flame is any post that one personally disagrees with - or which a
majority of developers disagree with.  Flames are more about attitude
and intent - not so much about viewpoint.  As an example I tended to
disagree with the point you were raising, but I'd hope we could agree
that I'm attempting to be constructive in my reply and that I'm trying
to focus on what is good for Gentoo and not my personal agenda.  If I
had just replied with a one-liner of some sort it would be less
constructive.  Even so, this is inherently a political discussion and
those devs on this list who would prefer to just work on their herds and
not worry about moderation/ CoC/ religious positions on package
managers/ etc. would probably prefer that it took place on -project -
not because the debate isn't important, but simply because it isn't what
they're interested in reading about.

I've participated in moderated lists which weren't perceived as
one-sided or as creating a division between valued and unvalued posters.
 Often a majority of posts are moderated, and the only thing the
moderator does is determine whether the post adds value to the
conversation.  One-liners get rejected regardless of who sends them -
and genuine arguments get accepted regardless of where they line up
against the party view.  Such lists benefit from a diversity of opinions
and don't get as bogged-down in groupthink.  They also tend to be more
inviting to outsiders.

Flames really shouldn't be welcome on any list.  I know there are
posters on this list that drive most of the devs crazy - and it is easy
for me to just say not to fight fire with fire.  I know that when devs
do reply with one-liners nobody thinks less of them for it as a result
(I am not certain I'd act any differently if I were in their shoes).
However, that isn't good for the project - it tends to create a strong
core team that circles the wagons against outside dissent - which is
good when the dissent is just an annoying party of raiders, but it can
lead to less flexibility and an unwillingness to tolerate dissent of any
kind.  I'm sure the XFree86 team is still a tight-knit group that is
happy with the licensing decision they made some time ago, even though
as a result they're almost entirely irrelevant to the FOSS world now.

I think the -dev / -project division is good, and I think it will make a
lot of devs happy - if for no other reason than they don't need to read
discussions like this one...  :)  However, if anybody thinks that it
will succeed in getting rid of certain unpopular voices on this list I
think they will be disappointed - they will go where the discussion is.
 At best the division will let people choose what discussion they
participate in - not who participates in those discussions.  Maybe we
can just be optimistic that at some point we'll learn how to disagree
maturely...
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[gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Ryan Hill]

Jan Kundrát wrote:

> Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.

I'd like to think that the goal of -project is to let devs who are only
interested in technical discussion stay away from the rest of the crap
they don't care about.  I agree about the cross-posting; in a perfect
world, one should be able to maintain their Gentoo-awareness with
-dev-announce and -core alone.

Poisonous content shouldn't be tolerated on any list (also in a perfect
world).


-- 
dirtyepic    you'd be tossed up or wash up, the narrator relates
 gentoo org          in a spartan antarctican walk for many days
  9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3  5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8)

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Duncan]

Richard Freeman <rich@thefreemanclan.net> posted
46A4133A.4030007@thefreemanclan.net, excerpted below, on  Sun, 22 Jul 2007
22:32:26 -0400:

> Jan Kundrát wrote:
>> Ryan Hill wrote:
>>> zombieswift/new devs		-project
>>> council/trustee nominations		-project
>> 
>> Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
>> thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
>> content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.
>> 
> I thought the goal was more to separate technical and non-technical
> content - as most of the heavy-reply emails on -dev were non-technical
> in nature.  The politics/etc could go on -project.

[snip]
 
> If anything of any importance at all gets discussed on -dev, then all
> the non-technical stuff will end up on -dev as well and nothing will be
> accomplished by having the new list.  Developers who are interested in
> participating in politics (devrel, CoC debates, user-relation
> discussions, etc) should subscribe to -project.

The idea is this.  For non-tech posts, X-post the /first/ post, the 
announcement of the idea (for new devs, nominations, etc, to both dev and 
dev-announce), so those only paying attention to dev know about it.  Set 
the followup to project (not dev).  Those who wish to discuss it, the 
discussion goes to project.

If/when a decision is made, the announcement of the decision is made to 
dev-announce and dev, again xposted and fup2 set to project.

For most non-technical stuff then, dev will normally get two posts, the 
initial idea announcement, and the decision announcement if one is made.  
Dev-announce will get one, the final decision.

Foundation and council nominations are a bit strange in this regard, 
since generally, the thread starter is an announcement, but arguably so 
are the nominations and accept/reject notices.  This one's tough, but I'd 
call it an exception.  The best idea I can come up with here is initial 
nominations open announcement to dev-announce, xposted to dev, with fup2 
set to dev (not project, the single non-tech exception).  That will keep 
dev-announce noise really low, while allowing the nominations and accept/
reject on dev, one step above where they'd normally be because they are 
announcements, but not on announce, to keep the noise there lower.  In 
keeping with this exception, the original nominations open announcement 
should say those and acceptance/rejection notices are welcome on dev, but 
that any discussion thereof should be on project only.

Then an elections official appointed to the job should produce a summary 
a few days before nominations close with nominations to date, and again 
as nominations close and elections begin.  This summary should go to dev-
announce, xposted and fup2 set to dev for more nominations for the pre-
close announcement, and to project for the nominations close, elections 
begin, announcement.

So for nominations, there'd be three posts to dev announce instead of 
two, the opening announcement, the pre-close summary, and the final 
summary, marking the opening of elections.

> One thing I want to caution is a potentially-dangerous mindset that a
> flame is any post that one personally disagrees with - or which a
> majority of developers disagree with.  Flames are more about attitude
> and intent - not so much about viewpoint. [snip]

++

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Joe Peterson]

Duncan wrote:
> The idea is this.  For non-tech posts, X-post the /first/ post, the 
> announcement of the idea (for new devs, nominations, etc, to both dev and 
> dev-announce), so those only paying attention to dev know about it.  Set 
> the followup to project (not dev).  Those who wish to discuss it, the 
> discussion goes to project.

It seems to me that since -dev-announce is for topics both technical
*and* non-technical, -dev-announce should *not* be automatically (or
manually) cross-posted to -dev as a general rule.  Also, I would
consider it odd to set auto-reply munging for -dev-announce to -dev.

>From the description of the new -dev-announce list, it does not seem to
be an "announcement version" of -dev, but rather a list with a different
purpose, so tying it to -dev, either via automatic reply munging or
cross-posting does not make sense to me.

						-Joe
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 21:26 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Ryan Hill wrote:
> > zombieswift/new devs			-project
> > council/trustee nominations		-project
> 
> Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.

This is what I am afraid of, as it now looks like all we've accomplished
is making it more difficult for someone to keep their eyes on
everything.

Also, what is the point of dev-announce, then?  Realize that
dev-announce and project were two separate "solutions" for the same
"problem" so now we have two different ways of getting the same point
across.  If dev-announce continues down the path it is currently going
of being only some precursor to dev, I don't see the point, at all.  If
it is opened up more as I'd outlined previously, making it useful for
*all* lists, then I definitely see the reasoning.  I'm still not sure I
see the point on project, though, since nearly anything being discussed
on project could go to another list.  I mean, anything policy-related
could go to the appropriate list, such as gentoo-council, gentoo-nfp, or
gentoo-devrel, so what exactly *is* left, aside from flames, that is
non-technical in nature, doesn't fall under the Council/Trustees/DevRel,
but still is a global issue?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 20:33 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:26:07 +0200
> Jan Kundrát <jkt@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Ryan Hill wrote:
> > > zombieswift/new devs			-project
> > > council/trustee nominations		-project
> > 
> > Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> > thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> > content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.
> 
> Ah, you mean you thought -project was a dumping ground where people
> could be sent when you wanted to ignore someone?

Shouldn't you take this to -project?  :P

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Roy Marples]

On Mon, 2007-07-23 at 13:41 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 21:26 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > Ryan Hill wrote:
> > > zombieswift/new devs			-project
> > > council/trustee nominations		-project
> > 
> > Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> > thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> > content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.
> 
> This is what I am afraid of, as it now looks like all we've accomplished
> is making it more difficult for someone to keep their eyes on
> everything.

On the other hand it's easier to keep our eyes off stuff which a large
chunk of devs deem twaddle. You can subscribe to many lists easily - not
so easily to filter one massive list.

> [ ... ]

Yeah, you should take that to -project or some other suitable list :P

Thanks

Roy

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[George Prowse]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 21:26 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
>> Ryan Hill wrote:
>>> zombieswift/new devs			-project
>>> council/trustee nominations		-project
>> Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
>> thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
>> content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.
> 
> This is what I am afraid of, as it now looks like all we've accomplished
> is making it more difficult for someone to keep their eyes on
> everything.
> 
That's what you get for allowing trolls on the list.Sorry for being 
brutally honest but it has been a long time coming...

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2007-07-23 at 22:20 +0100, Roy Marples wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-07-23 at 13:41 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 21:26 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > > Ryan Hill wrote:
> > > > zombieswift/new devs			-project
> > > > council/trustee nominations		-project
> > > 
> > > Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
> > > thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
> > > content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.
> > 
> > This is what I am afraid of, as it now looks like all we've accomplished
> > is making it more difficult for someone to keep their eyes on
> > everything.
> 
> On the other hand it's easier to keep our eyes off stuff which a large
> chunk of devs deem twaddle. You can subscribe to many lists easily - not
> so easily to filter one massive list.

See, but I also would like to actually see some of this stuff, without
having to worry about which list my reply is supposed to go to (come on,
that's just getting ludicrous) and without reading the same emails
repeatedly (auto-forwarding).

As I see it now, to be even the least bit informed to do things like...
oh... voting for the Council, I'd have to follow multiple lists.

> > [ ... ]
> 
> Yeah, you should take that to -project or some other suitable list :P

Once some consensus is made and it actually becomes policy, sure.  Until
then,  I'm going to continue to use this list for the same things it's
been used for up until now.  Once we've agreed upon how the lists should
be used, then I see no issue with using them that way, meaning *this*
conversation does belong here, as there's been no consensus amongst our
developer pool, nor a completed Council decision to change the policy.

Like I said, the two proposals I had seen were:

- gentoo-dev-announce
- gentoo-project

I hadn't seen anyone asking for both, so we've now got to figure out
whether to drop one list or repurpose one of them.  Personally, I'm for
repurposing gentoo-dev-announce to be a global "development" announce
list with no reply-to munging/filtering and developer-only posting.  I
think doing this would be complimentary to gentoo-project and would be
useful to me, allowing me to know about conversations on other lists and
allowing *me* to *choose* when I want to participate, which is a vast
improvement from what we have had until now.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: New lists and their usage

[Steve Long]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
 
>> Yeah, you should take that to -project or some other suitable list :P
> 
> Once some consensus is made and it actually becomes policy, sure.  Until
> then,  I'm going to continue to use this list for the same things it's
> been used for up until now.  Once we've agreed upon how the lists should
> be used, then I see no issue with using them that way, meaning *this*
> conversation does belong here, as there's been no consensus amongst our
> developer pool, nor a completed Council decision to change the policy.
> 
Well I think there's been a consensus that project is for non-technical
discussion. Usage policy for lists would seem to fall under that.

> Like I said, the two proposals I had seen were:
> 
> - gentoo-dev-announce
> - gentoo-project
> 
> I hadn't seen anyone asking for both, so we've now got to figure out
> whether to drop one list or repurpose one of them.  Personally, I'm for
> repurposing gentoo-dev-announce to be a global "development" announce
> list with no reply-to munging/filtering and developer-only posting.  I
> think doing this would be complimentary to gentoo-project and would be
> useful to me, allowing me to know about conversations on other lists and
> allowing *me* to *choose* when I want to participate, which is a vast
> improvement from what we have had until now.
> 
That sounds like an effective use of dev-announce, although it would make
more sense to keep it as pure announcements, which would mean reply-to
would be dev. Otherwise, it could become the public dev-only mailing list
which was proposed for this list, and there was definitely no consensus
established for that move.


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