From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1IBe6h-0006pZ-PP for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:04:24 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with SMTP id l6JM2mkW025626; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:02:48 GMT Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6JLxOhe019536 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:59:24 GMT Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id c2so555533ugf for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=D1B6fl/6v1D7lCp93l8+MkDL8xW+x6rrWy+dHD8tW0j5QsS9t0m9S3QHD4XPCdyRAwR8GP1eauIejpPdOB8Yy88t3MpoQtxHt7fC0O8KSmFk0Y2bKIzrRg2hqF9t0dq5E4DnV1a6Db4c2jz85V4f1JDi6jeTEkGD8T0kYcn2P4A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=o9lAT22VdPvunBWe2Z6NCmQ369Yt9vZhJuEvj+pei8fN5USVgHN5yBVgKfR+DkhKor0Yv0NjX/MGLtTHIFqki8K7D/BJHJsOAXGs5iygBcGygi/ETZqYwY3/x6MDYs2VYi7pRJWqsb947AakJJqCaQzLoWhMDxpFG5ZbLJKu+JQ= Received: by 10.67.97.18 with SMTP id z18mr1459240ugl.1184882364496; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.78? ( [81.79.237.61]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm2180437nfv.2007.07.19.14.59.22 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <469FDEB9.70905@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:59:21 +0100 From: George Prowse User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols) References: <469F1C56.6070600@gentoo.org> <469F372A.9060107@gentoo.org> <469F3A9F.7030004@gentoo.org> <46A0DE7B.6030009@gentoo.org> <469F9271.9080908@gentoo.org> <469FC366.8020304@gmail.com> <20070719212506.09a52e94@snowflake> <469FCD7A.1090506@bellsouth.net> <20070719215933.014b21cd@snowflake> <469FD60B.7030206@gmail.com> <20070719223139.540d6697@snowflake> In-Reply-To: <20070719223139.540d6697@snowflake> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: b5004b75-488b-4ddc-9b6b-4998115510e0 X-Archives-Hash: e841e525db9faebdedf2c1b31d375823 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100 > George Prowse wrote: >>> Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not >>> see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question >>> and take time to respond are highly atypical. >> If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers >> you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo >> has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. > > No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users > who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well > established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how > widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their > system breaks and they try to find out why. So you think nothing should be done because some people don't interact in the Gentoo communication channels? > >>>> I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums >>> That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you >>> what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, >>> not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo >>> has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. >>> Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who >>> respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have >>> time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. >> Ahhhhh, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users >> is the reason why it shouldn't be done > > No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design > decisions is why it shouldn't be done. So those people that would reply would make wrong suggestions/answers/whatever.. Thats a pretty bold comment when one of the main Off The Wall posters codes rocket propulsion software for the British Government. > >>>> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to >>>> go in. >>> I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, >>> guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any >>> package from source using my configuration of choice in under >>> fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo >>> deliver that? >> Irrelevant conclusion > > Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most > users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want > is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of > impossible goals. People at Gentoo tend to know what they would like, if they suggest something that is unobtainable and are given reasons why, 2 things would happen: 1. They would have a greater respect for the developers for actually trying. 2. They would have knowlege to be able to suggest an alternative. > >>>> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but >>>> most of the gripers don't vote. >>> Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it >>> would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with >>> the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of >>> the majority". >> It would make a difference in the relations between users and >> developers. > > Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told "sorry, > we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for". > >> Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? > > I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were > things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all. > That doesn't stop you having your say by contributing... -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list