From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1IAS8r-0001t7-BX for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:05:42 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with SMTP id l6GF44f6014204; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:04:04 GMT Received: from vms040pub.verizon.net (vms040pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.40]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6GF0iI6009461 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:00:45 GMT Received: from gw.thefreemanclan.net ([71.242.206.252]) by vms040.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JLA008LJ1OZUVP2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> for gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:00:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gw.thefreemanclan.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9A0124136 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:00:25 -0400 From: Richard Freeman Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes In-reply-to: <469B770F.4030807@gentoo.org> To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Message-id: <469B8809.7070203@thefreemanclan.net> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary=------------ms080503030406020409020802 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 References: <46968E00.4070202@gentoo.org> <1184536747.18353.55.camel@sputnik886.lnet> <469B0DC2.2070903@gentoo.org> <469B5A4E.7090406@gentoo.org> <469B6006.9040805@gentoo.org> <469B67C4.4010702@gentoo.org> <20070716151523.6e789370@sheridan.genone.homeip.net> <469B770F.4030807@gentoo.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070616) X-Archives-Salt: d7c2c1c2-2246-485e-bae8-8756b751fa3e X-Archives-Hash: ed603736903457921259108bc709887a This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080503030406020409020802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Gaffney wrote: > > Yep, this is all anyone is trying to say. We aren't paid, so we work on > what we feel like working on, and do what we feel like doing (within > reason). > This is the great difficulty with any open-source project, and yet most work fairly well (including Gentoo despite all the talk in the last few months). Nobody is paying the devs to be devs. Nobody is paying the ATs to be ATs, nobody is paying the formum mods to keep things clean. Nobody is paying the users to submit bugs, or to humor the flamewars that often follow in bugzilla. Why are the users here? Gentoo meets a need. Why are the devs here? Gentoo meets a need. While they might have different roles, ultimately we all benefit from working well together. What the project needs to do is to create an environment where each can succeed without burning out. This requires effort on all parts, and the occasional application of moderation between the brain/keyboard interface (regardless of one's stance on ML moderation I think we can all agree on this point). I think that this particular debate is coming across fairly divisively, and has the potential to be very damaging. I think we need to choose our words carefully. Ultimately we're all here to scratch an itch of some kind. To the extent that devs work on projects that might not benefit themselves personally we need to recognize and appreciate their charity. For their part devs have to realize that users often do recognize this and often do try to go out of their way to humor some devs abrasive retorts in bugzilla/etc (and this does not in ANY way apply to all, or even most, devs). There are both devs and users which give the larger population a bad reputation, even though their individual contributions might warrant their continued participation in Gentoo - and we all need to recognize this. The fact is we all get further ahead in life when we learn to work together. Some here might not be in the working world yet - trust me - corporate IT is a whole different beast whether you're working for a start-up or an enterprise - say something rash to a customer or partner and you might never work in the industry again (and that goes both ways in the vendor/customer relationship). For those already in the "real world" - it is nice to have a project where one can pick and choose what one works on without having to "keep one's guard up" - but all interactions in life require some level of care if we ant to work together. Ultimately fostering some level of professionalism has to be a goal of the project. It doesn't have to be so dry that there isn't any fun - but raging flamewars will cause the project to bleed contributors, future-contributors, and sponsors (those nice infrastructure servers require power, bandwidth, hardware, and people to run them). And we don't need the bureaucracy associated with most large IT organizations to accomplish this - just being polite goes a long way. When somebody treats you as if you're their personal slave do feel free to point it out, but do so nicely and they'll probably get the point and bug you a whole lot less in the future than if they just get a snappy retort. And extreme problem cases can always be dealt with using technical means (bans/etc). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGm4gDG4/rWKZmVWkRAp4qAKCqyok4HGwrEvcqmRulz3HydsgcTwCcCSPp Gct+FtaHsTdbsyEDfuXAkcI= =siL8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------ms080503030406020409020802 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMQDCC BhwwggQEoAMCAQICAwO6BzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4w HAYDVQQLExVodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmlu ZyBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzAeFw0wNzA2 MjUxMjA0NDFaFw0wNzEyMjIxMjA0NDFaMIHHMRgwFgYDVQQDEw9DQWNlcnQgV29UIFVzZXIx JDAiBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWFWZyZWVtYW5yaWNoQGdtYWlsLmNvbTEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYV cmljaEByaWNoLmhvbWVkbnMub3JnMSYwJAYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhdyaWNoQHRoZWZyZWVtYW5j bGFuLm5ldDE3MDUGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYoYzBiYWI2OTVlODNmMmRiMGYxNjEwYmJkMDg2OWIw NDdkMjMxNzY2ZjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAK9ndKO2vSo9VueQ OLUNmNDY5noHejSM3W8pQmkLgumGDni22LQBRxQd4stw4mEac2YXTUMAK/L0p6R0FF0SJ8sx cGoY3r4hLiTNZnneftJ1D3pNUxRWfpak6Q68Fyq9Kejqx8OH4O/exOnVc2aMMR851gCqHvcJ np/CgLsvU185CB+L9TU3ELECJIPF5bNAgnd7GZqKRdV16fk9oPZtqo7W0xdWRpn81W04Lv6i A9x+EjguIIv3sMFQegVyHP408O5CZRXKuS5+eW1/l6TjfWCJowQL2qzk+qhZdL34VLCnXXHo 1SzeA4I65yfYxVYG8qvWZRxVRKA7ZT9joeW3eI8CAwEAAaOCAVwwggFYMAwGA1UdEwEB/wQC MAAwVgYJYIZIAYb4QgENBEkWR1RvIGdldCB5b3VyIG93biBjZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBmb3IgRlJF RSBoZWFkIG92ZXIgdG8gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5DQWNlcnQub3JnMEAGA1UdJQQ5MDcGCCsGAQUF BwMEBggrBgEFBQcDAgYKKwYBBAGCNwoDBAYKKwYBBAGCNwoDAwYJYIZIAYb4QgQBMDIGCCsG AQUFBwEBBCYwJDAiBggrBgEFBQcwAYYWaHR0cDovL29jc3AuY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzB6BgNVHREE czBxgRVmcmVlbWFucmljaEBnbWFpbC5jb22BFXJpY2hAcmljaC5ob21lZG5zLm9yZ4EXcmlj aEB0aGVmcmVlbWFuY2xhbi5uZXSBKGMwYmFiNjk1ZTgzZjJkYjBmMTYxMGJiZDA4NjliMDQ3 ZDIzMTc2NmYwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADggIBAHbzbaaXAqnD3IFXNQX0+B3VQP8+YdPn8DRK g0ZMqVvL5dPzJ07M6MAEMECUM07cRfjHIFZ5ICkCdZYzCW2dnJDTX9o+E8BU75kbbODU9APY hwQIhcU+Vd73zYWO+qoE5UMSe8AvfUsAzRDclFD5edbQxdzC96ek7kRufHqhaDdFLig9lmMP g+vvYJXkT2mPHRI1NTcxRxxm3naJiPWHvXQpkY8PUGhXkxAcEOOfkAdinJXjuWYqxykzirVa 9jkMEI9KFIZgUrkhfOoAGi779GWf3TFdBlztAFLWj2nUU7yH3iMPczz2Gv7og0+im1pUdodx pShsQmS7PlbichstLusSKDmRHhN1WMHxVT28B09jb1OIiwEBKs1ZRGbrN5FJHpHWMwaKewbM LTxXXY1rWt7+iLF5IbTrz/V+QTEKF9nBHty3OVC/4VqwWrUomOy+cZ0bNKfPw/20cQlR6jiL k7DCuhjM42LkIkzY9MmCDgZ1ADIiOhA6YCEwACG9d8iYp7mAnPYeYos395gn6eGfCWcvL69k cV3JeTlTa6xaddjVA0m+2i/5i9H6OMQ/2rFgcuo79ldna8yMhRrcWIu41QxciaavCjANUqqX MoKNw3vcVrTaTCtaAzDR8GXkmr8UThiQHG4iUILT5JwEUkcqHbzkQvdkNvh7adtFD12n0jun MIIGHDCCBASgAwIBAgIDA7oHMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMHkxEDAOBgNVBAoTB1Jvb3QgQ0Ex HjAcBgNVBAsTFWh0dHA6Ly93d3cuY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzEiMCAGA1UEAxMZQ0EgQ2VydCBTaWdu aW5nIEF1dGhvcml0eTEhMB8GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYSc3VwcG9ydEBjYWNlcnQub3JnMB4XDTA3 MDYyNTEyMDQ0MVoXDTA3MTIyMjEyMDQ0MVowgccxGDAWBgNVBAMTD0NBY2VydCBXb1QgVXNl cjEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVZnJlZW1hbnJpY2hAZ21haWwuY29tMSQwIgYJKoZIhvcNAQkB FhVyaWNoQHJpY2guaG9tZWRucy5vcmcxJjAkBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWF3JpY2hAdGhlZnJlZW1h bmNsYW4ubmV0MTcwNQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFihjMGJhYjY5NWU4M2YyZGIwZjE2MTBiYmQwODY5 YjA0N2QyMzE3NjZmMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAr2d0o7a9Kj1W 55A4tQ2Y0Njmegd6NIzdbylCaQuC6YYOeLbYtAFHFB3iy3DiYRpzZhdNQwAr8vSnpHQUXRIn yzFwahjeviEuJM1med5+0nUPek1TFFZ+lqTpDrwXKr0p6OrHw4fg797E6dVzZowxHznWAKoe 9wmen8KAuy9TXzkIH4v1NTcQsQIkg8Xls0CCd3sZmopF1XXp+T2g9m2qjtbTF1ZGmfzVbTgu /qID3H4SOC4gi/ewwVB6BXIc/jTw7kJlFcq5Ln55bX+XpON9YImjBAvarOT6qFl0vfhUsKdd cejVLN4DgjrnJ9jFVgbyq9ZlHFVEoDtlP2Oh5bd4jwIDAQABo4IBXDCCAVgwDAYDVR0TAQH/ BAIwADBWBglghkgBhvhCAQ0ESRZHVG8gZ2V0IHlvdXIgb3duIGNlcnRpZmljYXRlIGZvciBG UkVFIGhlYWQgb3ZlciB0byBodHRwOi8vd3d3LkNBY2VydC5vcmcwQAYDVR0lBDkwNwYIKwYB BQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCBgorBgEEAYI3CgMEBgorBgEEAYI3CgMDBglghkgBhvhCBAEwMgYI KwYBBQUHAQEEJjAkMCIGCCsGAQUFBzABhhZodHRwOi8vb2NzcC5jYWNlcnQub3JnMHoGA1Ud EQRzMHGBFWZyZWVtYW5yaWNoQGdtYWlsLmNvbYEVcmljaEByaWNoLmhvbWVkbnMub3JngRdy aWNoQHRoZWZyZWVtYW5jbGFuLm5ldIEoYzBiYWI2OTVlODNmMmRiMGYxNjEwYmJkMDg2OWIw NDdkMjMxNzY2ZjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOCAgEAdvNtppcCqcPcgVc1BfT4HdVA/z5h0+fw NEqDRkypW8vl0/MnTszowAQwQJQzTtxF+McgVnkgKQJ1ljMJbZ2ckNNf2j4TwFTvmRts4NT0 A9iHBAiFxT5V3vfNhY76qgTlQxJ7wC99SwDNENyUUPl51tDF3ML3p6TuRG58eqFoN0UuKD2W Yw+D6+9gleRPaY8dEjU1NzFHHGbedomI9Ye9dCmRjw9QaFeTEBwQ45+QB2KcleO5ZirHKTOK tVr2OQwQj0oUhmBSuSF86gAaLvv0ZZ/dMV0GXO0AUtaPadRTvIfeIw9zPPYa/uiDT6KbWlR2 h3GlKGxCZLs+VuJyGy0u6xIoOZEeE3VYwfFVPbwHT2NvU4iLAQEqzVlEZus3kUkekdYzBop7 BswtPFddjWta3v6IsXkhtOvP9X5BMQoX2cEe3Lc5UL/hWrBatSiY7L5xnRs0p8/D/bRxCVHq OIuTsMK6GMzjYuQiTNj0yYIOBnUAMiI6EDpgITAAIb13yJinuYCc9h5iizf3mCfp4Z8JZy8v r2RxXcl5OVNrrFp12NUDSb7aL/mL0fo4xD/asWBy6jv2V2drzIyFGtxYi7jVDFyJpq8KMA1S qpcygo3De9xWtNpMK1oDMNHwZeSavxROGJAcbiJQgtPknARSRyodvORC92Q2+Htp20UPXafS O6cxggOHMIIDgwIBATCBgDB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4wHAYDVQQLExVodHRwOi8v d3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmluZyBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAf BgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZwIDA7oHMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggHbMBgG CSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTA3MDcxNjE1MDAyNVow IwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFHVqaxvBL0jW4tqCgNDBxvo17yTgMFIGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzFFMEMw CgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0G CCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMIGRBgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxgYMwgYAweTEQMA4GA1UEChMHUm9vdCBDQTEe MBwGA1UECxMVaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jYWNlcnQub3JnMSIwIAYDVQQDExlDQSBDZXJ0IFNpZ25p bmcgQXV0aG9yaXR5MSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJzdXBwb3J0QGNhY2VydC5vcmcCAwO6BzCB kwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgYOggYAweTEQMA4GA1UEChMHUm9vdCBDQTEeMBwGA1UECxMVaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5jYWNlcnQub3JnMSIwIAYDVQQDExlDQSBDZXJ0IFNpZ25pbmcgQXV0aG9yaXR5 MSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJzdXBwb3J0QGNhY2VydC5vcmcCAwO6BzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AASCAQAIqHwk/NoZGmzlwIecngTZLRecbJu9RoIsRBuGCSvG5HRqoAvKie9yVsfVRA4oj3ab ge5NmDHrpjmFp74Qs3pv67+oJApapeHgAyF/NauM1amhwWdjCqn2C1XaH66fMyS8qnYUaFUO T1M0gvOYAVF58C0HEybOuiKYIfLIL60/WPYzYKbF/JfTJCWlc8IGmLhYStpFjwiJ5gIAG1hV O4UZnqA6sDhpwiVBgakD21VKLUyUtmTAX4a7PpzYvZOyF2wdY0l3B4dScxJfqJZeO0XR2XLx zaGU4Gt0ok/0L6PK+cegXEMpxtylkV+xgrk4EPNqli6s8HKXXzCXo7VvrjuKAAAAAAAA --------------ms080503030406020409020802-- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list