[gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn 
bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU.  Given what's been 
going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get 
back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high 
time we create this list ourselves.

What goes on it?, why the flames of course.  Every last ember, hot coal, glowing 
developers, and any kittens having reached critical mass.  We leave the new 
developer introductions on -dev, but any developer leaving and wanting to say 
goodbye, should consider posting their bit on -politics, because that's lately 
been the reason for leaving.  Anything hot button, hot topic, divisive, 
non-development, etc.  Especially license debates.  Ohhh yes, the license 
debates definitely belong here.

This'll probably kill -dev off completely, unless we start developing again. 
But hey, I for once wouldn't mind a quiet gentoo-dev folder in my thunderbird 
client.



So who's up for it?  We can even divide ourselves into Red Devs and Blue Devs! 
Blue Devs will, of course, be liberal, very energy conservative (i.e., no 
Octanes for you guys!), Pro-Choice (Portage or Paludis or Pkgcore, it's a dev's 
right to choose!), and most importantly, they'll favour any legislation from the 
Council that bans devs from smoking.  You know, the kind of smoldering that 
happens before a dev bursts into flames?

And the Red Devs?  Well, they'll be on the other side of the fence.  They'll 
blow the electric bill like the space shuttle burns fuel.  They'll also be 
Anti-Portage (it's Paludis/Pkgcore or else).  And the flames?  We're talking 
Firebats from StarCraft here.  Need a light?

See, this is fun already!  We can hold debates where one side rips the other, 
conventions where the egos of one side get inflated bigger than the Hindenburg 
(and lots of confetti is thrown about), And maybe even a few scandals, like 
discovering one die-hard Blue Dev secretly runs a 8-way Opteron system with a 
15-disk RAID6 array and 5 CRT monitors, or something.

We will have to fill a few positions, though.  We'll need a flip-flopper for 
starters (the one dev who randomly changes his opinion when cornered).  We'll 
also need a dev who skipped the Freenode War a year or two ago (when Bantown 
attacked, and they ran away screaming because of the netsplits and Squits and 
lilo impersonators).  And maybe a dev who secretly dabbles in another OS....like 
Wind...err, Ubuntu!


So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside.  It's blatantly obvious people 
need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the politics from 
the technical discussion, it might help in some way.  Yes, it'll also be the 
source of many problems too.  I can't envision what they might be, but I know 
they'd exist.


Anyways, thoughts?


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Luis Francisco Araujo]

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Kumba wrote:
> 
> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
> IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and
> others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you
> know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list
> ourselves.
> 

> 
> Anyways, thoughts?
> 
> 
> --Kumba
> 

I like the idea.

- --

Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org"
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kent Fredric]

On 6/7/07, Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Anyways, thoughts?
>
> --Kumba


+1

possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
confused with net-im/gossip )

And just for fits and giggles, the occasional person can start a fake
flame war just to keep us on our toes as to whats a flame war, and
whats just devs moaning for the simple sake of moaning. =P

Just one q, ... is there like a green team?, not much a fan for blue's
or reds atm ( well, not in my country anyway, colours do seem to be a
little country specific sometimes)
 ^^;




-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Christian Parpart]

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On Thursday 07 June 2007 09:10:41 Kent Fredric wrote:
> On 6/7/07, Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Anyways, thoughts?
> >
> > --Kumba
>
> +1

+1 here too

> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
> confused with net-im/gossip )

gentoo-soap, lol!

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Christian Parpart wrote:
> 
> +1 here too
> 
>> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
>> confused with net-im/gossip )
> 
> gentoo-soap, lol!

...."And these are the Flames of our Lives..."


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Jan Kundrát]

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Kent Fredric wrote:
> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
> confused with net-im/gossip )

Please, please, make it gentoo-circuits [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_My_Circuits

Yours faithfully,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Vlastimil Babka]

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Kumba wrote:
> And maybe a dev who
> secretly dabbles in another OS....like Wind...err, Ubuntu!

I thought this position has been already filled :)
- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Luca Barbato]

Kumba wrote:
> So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside.  It's blatantly obvious
> people need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the
> politics from the technical discussion, it might help in some way.  Yes,
> it'll also be the source of many problems too.  I can't envision what
> they might be, but I know they'd exist.

I'm ok with it, just I'd like to have it available as gentoo-fortune please.

(btw I'd like to see the quotebot back from the old ages!)

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Luca Barbato wrote:
> 
> I'm ok with it, just I'd like to have it available as gentoo-fortune please.
> 
> (btw I'd like to see the quotebot back from the old ages!)

Oh, I could easily see the quote package for gentoo-politics (or whatever its 
called) raising much laughter (among other things).

And yes, the quote bot needs to return!  So I can stop storing quotes in my bot 
hiding off on another network :P


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Marius Mauch]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 02:19:55 -0400
Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:

> 
> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn 
> bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU.  Given what's been 
> going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get 
> back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high 
> time we create this list ourselves.

Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.

Marius

-- 
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org>
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Marius Mauch wrote:
> 
> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.
> 

Most of what I wrote was tongue-in-cheek, but the point was that -dev is far too 
often filled with non-technical issues that ultimately result into flame wars of 
the likes that'd humble mighty Troy herself.  It is also our primary list for 
discussion of all-things gentoo, and so the -dev moniker doesn't even really fit 
right now.

By separating the technical and non-technical, and allowing people to 
voluntarily subscribe to the -politics one or not (since -dev is basically a 
requirement for devship), My hope is that -dev finally gets back on track as 
being purely technical.  That is, PMS discussions, ebuild additions/removals, 
new developer intros, why quoting variables like ${S} is safer than not quoting 
them in ebuilds, questions about bash-fu, and so on.  These belong on -dev.

The rest, the non-technical, can go elsewhere, IMHO, and people are free to 
subscribe to it if they wish to participate in the discussions there or not.  I 
  myself would likely stay off that list, because I care more about technical 
things.  I live ~30mi outside of the DC Beltway; I get enough politics as it is.

Think about it -- I'm 30mi away from Wolf Blitzer.  Scary stuff man.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Marius Mauch wrote:
> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.
>   
We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or else.."
for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

> Marius
>
>   

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Philip Webb]

070607 Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> people with ability to say "move this to gentoo-politics or else.."
> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic
> in your technical discussion or else..." with power
> to temporarily ban people for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

I've also previously thought a 'gentoo-pol' list wb an improvement,
leaving 'gentoo-dev' for genuine development discussions & announcements.
The former should have fairly free speech, but some users/devs might choose
not to subscribe, if the noise tended to outweigh the messages.
Its principal attraction wb to relieve '-dev', as you describe.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steev Klimaszewski]

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Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> Marius Mauch wrote:
>> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.
>>   
> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or else.."
> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
> 
>> Marius
>>
>>   
> 
No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
can't have that, no sir.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
> can't have that, no sir.

It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Doug Goldstein]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
> Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
>   
>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>> can't have that, no sir.
>>     
>
> It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
> argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.
>
>   
Or if it's done to you.
-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steve Long]

Doug Goldstein wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
>>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>>> can't have that, no sir.
>>>     
>> It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
>> argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.
>>
No that would be *permanently* banning an account from posting with undue
cause. Not for 2 weeks or 3 months, but permanently. Even in such an
eventuality the poster is free to use another email address. Stalin would
turn in his grave.. ;)

imo others would protest blatant censorship quite vociferously. After all,
look how they react to a 24-hour mute on *one* thread. amne would no doubt
have insight into this, as would jmb, but oh dear, we seem to have lost all
that experience over one thread. *gg*

>>   
> Or if it's done to you.

Careful; what some see as an accurate description of behaviour, others see
as "ad-hominem."


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
> Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>> can't have that, no sir.
> 
> It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
> argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.
> 
Correct you are, your technical knowledge is still sharp as a tack.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> > Marius Mauch wrote:
> >> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an
> honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have
> serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to
> move threads from -dev to that new list.
> >>   
> > We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
> > While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
> > people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or
> else.."
> > for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
> > technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
> > for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>
> >> Marius
> >>
> >>   
> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
> can't have that, no sir.
I'll presume this to be irony. Oh. Sorry, can't have that on this list
today.
Please ban yourself for 24hours.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
>> Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
>>> Marius Mauch wrote:
>>>> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an
>> honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have
>> serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to
>> move threads from -dev to that new list.
>>>>   
>>> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
>>> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
>>> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or
>> else.."
>>> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
>>> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
>>> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>>>> Marius
>>>>
>>>>   
>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>> can't have that, no sir.
> I'll presume this to be irony. Oh. Sorry, can't have that on this list
> today.
> Please ban yourself for 24hours.

Not irony, sarcasm, and no sir, I will not ban myself.  The proctors
could have though, but not since no one will listen to them and they
have been completely undermined and made obsolete by an overzealous
council member.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or else.."
> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
> 

IMHO, any enforcement needs to come from the developer community themselves.  We 
have to be careful when designating small groups of people with power, because 
the dark side of power is that can can be misused.  The model of developers 
collectively enforcing works well already: the Portage Tree.  While we've had 
small mishaps here and there, largely, the honesty system used on the tree has 
worked quite well.  I think that can easily extend to keeping -dev technical in 
nature only.  After all, it already works for the wayward users who posts a 
-user question to -dev.  Just a simple, courteous note that such a question is 
better asked on -user, and off they go.  Nothing precludes the same response for 
a fellow developer posting a non-technical mail into -dev.

But anyways, we've got unanimous support so far, so next up: What to call it.

My two choices are gentoo-politics or gentoo-project.  After looking at 
debian-project a bit, I think there's no harm in recycling the same moniker[1] 
for our use as well.  Amusingly enough, there's even a thread on their ML today 
about discussion of of-topic topics.  The rest of the content there seems to be 
right in line with what's been on here too as of late.

So, what should we call it?  Vote on this!  I think the current popular names 
are the following (in no particular order, just what I've already seen suggested):

gentoo-politics
gentoo-circuits
gentoo-soap
gentoo-project
gentoo-gossip


[1]: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Philip Webb]

070607 Kumba wrote:
> what should we call it?  Vote on this!

If users have votes ...

> gentoo-politics

... that gets mine: let's keep it quite clear what it is.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'  University of Toronto
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Philip Webb wrote:
> 070607 Kumba wrote:
>> what should we call it?  Vote on this!
> 
> If users have votes ...

Since I'm pretty much the pikachu-loving nutball that proposed this, I don't see 
why not.  Users are as much a part of Gentoo as the developers are.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Roman Zimmermann]

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Kumba wrote:
> >> what should we call it?  Vote on this!
> >
> > If users have votes ...

Then I'd vote for gentoo-project.

It seems to me that politics covers just a part of all possible non-technical 
topics. Depends on how you define politics though.

Roman

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steve Long]

Roman Zimmermann wrote:
> Kumba wrote:
>> >> what should we call it?  Vote on this!
>> > If users have votes ...
> Then I'd vote for gentoo-project.
> 
> It seems to me that politics covers just a part of all possible
> non-technical topics. Depends on how you define politics though.
> 
++ `politics' is too emotive and we^H^Hmeh all hate politicians. So long as
y'all are happy to prod each other there without a badge to protect you
from flames.. ;)


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Duncan]

Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> posted 4668CAFE.5040202@gentoo.org, excerpted
below, on  Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:20:30 -0400:

> gentoo-project

I too like the idea, and that name gets my vote.

Does mail/lists have anything like the followup-to header of news?  
That'd be perfect for the "belongs in -project" posts, xpost the reminder 
(with the quote, so the background is there for those /only/ on project/
politics) to both, with followup-to set to -project.  Of course, some of 
us are viewing this list as a newsgroup already, on gmane, so it'd be 
simple for us, but I don't know how that carries over to the list side.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Jeffrey Gardner]

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Because the trolls will continue to post here for the widest possible
readership, it doesn't matter much what we call it...

Add another vote for -project anyway :)

- --
Jeffrey Gardner
Gentoo Developer
Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23
hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steve Long]

Duncan wrote:
> Does mail/lists have anything like the followup-to header of news?
> That'd be perfect for the "belongs in -project" posts, xpost the reminder
> (with the quote, so the background is there for those /only/ on project/
> politics) to both, with followup-to set to -project.  Of course, some of
> us are viewing this list as a newsgroup already, on gmane, so it'd be
> simple for us, but I don't know how that carries over to the list side.
> 
Also you can supersede articles from nntp, which is useful for keeping docs
up to date, SEO,..(see the book.) The bonus of not downloading 220 mails
after a week off is the main benefit of course ;)

But yeah /me votes for no reply-to munging as well.


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Luca Barbato]

Kumba wrote:
> gentoo-politics
> gentoo-circuits
> gentoo-soap
> gentoo-project
> gentoo-gossip

gentoo-drama - theatrical events every day, no feeling were hurt while
filming the show*

gentoo-chats - mindless discussions about non issues

gentoo-rhetorics - exercise your language skills

gentoo-pub - beer plans and other stuff, please bring the snacks.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Luis Francisco Araujo]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kumba wrote:
> Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
>> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
>> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
>> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or
>> else.."
>> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
>> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
>> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>>
> 
> IMHO, any enforcement needs to come from the developer community
> themselves.  We have to be careful when designating small groups of
> people with power, because the dark side of power is that can can be
> misused.  The model of developers collectively enforcing works well
> already: the Portage Tree.  While we've had small mishaps here and
> there, largely, the honesty system used on the tree has worked quite
> well.  I think that can easily extend to keeping -dev technical in
> nature only.  After all, it already works for the wayward users who
> posts a -user question to -dev.  Just a simple, courteous note that such
> a question is better asked on -user, and off they go.  Nothing precludes
> the same response for a fellow developer posting a non-technical mail
> into -dev.
> 
> But anyways, we've got unanimous support so far, so next up: What to
> call it.
> 
> My two choices are gentoo-politics or gentoo-project.  After looking at
> debian-project a bit, I think there's no harm in recycling the same
> moniker[1] for our use as well.  Amusingly enough, there's even a thread
> on their ML today about discussion of of-topic topics.  The rest of the
> content there seems to be right in line with what's been on here too as
> of late.
> 
> So, what should we call it?  Vote on this!  I think the current popular
> names are the following (in no particular order, just what I've already
> seen suggested):
> 
> gentoo-politics
> gentoo-circuits
> gentoo-soap
> gentoo-project
> gentoo-gossip
> 
> 
> [1]: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/
> 
> 
> --Kumba
> 

gentoo-project++

- --

Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org"
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Kumba wrote:
> 
> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the 
> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the 
> IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and 
> others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you 
> know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list 
> ourselves.
[snip]
> 
> Anyways, thoughts?

Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will probably 
want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.

Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[George Prowse]

Kumba wrote:
> Kumba wrote:
>>
>> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the 
>> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the 
>> IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself 
>> and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, 
>> you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this 
>> list ourselves.
> [snip]
>>
>> Anyways, thoughts?
> 
> Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will 
> probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.
> 
> Lets try and make this work, k?
> 
> 
> --Kumba
> 
I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Mike Doty]

George Prowse wrote:
> Kumba wrote:
>> Kumba wrote:
>>>
>>> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
>>> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
>>> IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
>>> and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
>>> you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
>>> list ourselves.
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Anyways, thoughts?
>>
>> Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
>> probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.
>>
>> Lets try and make this work, k?
>>
>>
>> --Kumba
>>
> I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q

-- 
=======================================================
Mike Doty                      kingtaco -at- gentoo.org
Gentoo Council
Gentoo Infrastructure
Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead
GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6  F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05
=======================================================
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Mike Doty wrote:
> George Prowse wrote:
>> Kumba wrote:
>>> Kumba wrote:
>>>> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
>>>> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
>>>> IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
>>>> and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
>>>> you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
>>>> list ourselves.
>>> [snip]
>>>> Anyways, thoughts?
>>> Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
>>> probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.
>>>
>>> Lets try and make this work, k?
>>>
>>>
>>> --Kumba
>>>
>> I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
> just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q
> 

0wned.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[George Prowse]

Mike Doty wrote:
> George Prowse wrote:
>> Kumba wrote:
>>> Kumba wrote:
>>>> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
>>>> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
>>>> IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
>>>> and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
>>>> you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
>>>> list ourselves.
>>> [snip]
>>>> Anyways, thoughts?
>>> Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
>>> probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.
>>>
>>> Lets try and make this work, k?
>>>
>>>
>>> --Kumba
>>>
>> I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
> just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q
> 
That would be the point of the irony...
-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ryan Hill]

Kumba wrote:

> Anyways, thoughts?

Yes please.

-- 
dirtyepic                 salesman said this vacuum's guaranteed
 gentoo org          it could suck an ancient virus from the sea
  9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3  5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Brian Harring]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1229 bytes --]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 02:31:02PM -0600, Ryan Hill wrote:
> Kumba wrote:
> 
> > Anyways, thoughts?
> 
> Yes please.

Guess I'll be the killjoy, and throw in the -1 on it.

Reasons are pretty straightforward (at least to me):

1) Creating such channels is just attempting to shift the problem out 
of sight.
2) Shifting said problem into a concentrated arena means the incidence 
of idiot conflicts/trolling/needling/whatever is likely to increase
3) said increase means proctors/devrel have more work (meaning more 
random outbursts at the proctors/devrel when folks realize that they 
*are* going to enforce the behaviour rules, and that the outburstes 
can be punished too).
4) look through -dev history; the issue isn't OT discussion, it's 
people needling/harassing/trolling/(chose your verb) kicking off yet 
another "mine is bigger" last word battle on the ml.

Basically, what does this solve?  If the intention is to create an OTW 
equivalent for the forums, sure, go nuts, but I strongly doubt it'll 
improve things on -dev.

So what is the explicit purpose of this?  Honestly assumed it was just 
a joke at debians expense initially, but folks seem to be serious 
about it...

~harring

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ryan Hill]

Brian Harring wrote:

> Guess I'll be the killjoy, and throw in the -1 on it.
> 
> Reasons are pretty straightforward (at least to me):

I originally agreed with you, but after giving it some thought I think
it might help.

> 1) Creating such channels is just attempting to shift the problem out 
> of sight.

This is true, if you consider the problem to be that
  a) we are required to be subscribed to -dev
  b) we don't want to spend our time sorting the signal from the noise
(where noise is defined as politics or non-technical debates or rhetoric)
  c) such noise kills developer interest and motivation and generally
makes us frowny-faced.

Shifting it out of sight is kinda the point.  We've already tried
(extensively) to make people get along together and it's obviously not
working.  We need to acknowledge that and try another approach.

> 2) Shifting said problem into a concentrated arena means the incidence 
> of idiot conflicts/trolling/needling/whatever is likely to increase

I don't think so.  Every rule of conduct that currently applies to -dev
should also apply to -project.  It's not OTW, just the non-technical
half (5/6ths? ;)) of -dev.

> 3) said increase means proctors/devrel have more work (meaning more 
> random outbursts at the proctors/devrel when folks realize that they 
> *are* going to enforce the behaviour rules, and that the outburstes 
> can be punished too).

It should probably be made clear beforehand then that these rules are
still in effect.

> 4) look through -dev history; the issue isn't OT discussion, it's 
> people needling/harassing/trolling/(chose your verb) kicking off yet 
> another "mine is bigger" last word battle on the ml.

By making -dev 'technical discussions only', the vast majority of that
needling/harassing/trolling becomes OT.  Now, of course, you can still
have a firefight in a technical debate, but history shows it to be far
less common than in a political discussion.

> Basically, what does this solve?  If the intention is to create an OTW 
> equivalent for the forums, sure, go nuts, but I strongly doubt it'll 
> improve things on -dev.

This is nothing like OTW.  Posts still need to be on-topic and we still
need to pretend we actually like each other. ;)

Of course, neither of us has a crystal ball (at least I know I don't),
so either one of us could be wrong.

PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on
gentoo-project. ;)


-- 
dirtyepic                 salesman said this vacuum's guaranteed
 gentoo org          it could suck an ancient virus from the sea
  9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3  5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8)

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kent Fredric]

On 6/11/07, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 3) said increase means proctors/devrel have more work (meaning more
> > random outbursts at the proctors/devrel when folks realize that they
> > *are* going to enforce the behaviour rules, and that the outburstes
> > can be punished too).
>
> It should probably be made clear beforehand then that these rules are
> still in effect.
>

A semi processed Idea: Instead of proctors using censorship on
selected persons, and seeing that the -politics/-project channel will
attract more flies than others, if the proctors whish to provide a
totally unbiased form of temporary censorship, they could just rate
limit /all/ users uniformly untill its been ascertained that the
heat/problem/troll has died down/diminish/quit

I propose a logarithmic binary back-off strategy, so it wont penalize
people unless they're intending on posting more than twice ;)


-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 301 bytes --]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:27:44 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on
> gentoo-project. ;)

And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from where
people will actually read it.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Alexander Gabert]

Ciaran McCreesh schrieb:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:27:44 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
>   
>> PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on
>> gentoo-project. ;)
>>     
>
> And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from where
> people will actually read it.
>   
IMHO it is moving criticism away from where people will actually NOT 
read it.
Get a life and stop whining that you are not the center of the world.


-Alex

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 511 bytes --]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:30:13 +0200
Alexander Gabert <pappy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from
> > where people will actually read it.
> >   
> IMHO it is moving criticism away from where people will actually NOT 
> read it.
> Get a life and stop whining that you are not the center of the world.

And again you illustrate why it's a bad idea. With the change that kind
of illogical nonsense is being actively encouraged.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Alexander Gabert]

CAUTION:
You are wasting your time reading this.
You are currently wasting my time because i had to write this.
You are also wasting the time of every other developer or ML reader who 
is reading this.

You may start wasting even more time of you, me and others putting more 
oil into this fire.

Ciaran McCreesh schrieb:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:30:13 +0200
> Alexander Gabert <pappy@gentoo.org> wrote:
>   
>>> And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from
>>> where people will actually read it.
>>>   
>>>       
>> IMHO it is moving criticism away from where people will actually NOT 
>> read it.
>> Get a life and stop whining that you are not the center of the world.
>>     
>
> And again you illustrate why it's a bad idea. With the change that kind
> of illogical nonsense is being actively encouraged.
>
>   

dear Ciaran,

It is funny to see how much you are fighting for riding a dead horse.

In my opinion a mailing list that is named "*-dev" is for discussing 
technical aspects of development.
Just because it has been tolerated by the owners of the mailing list to 
discuss nontechnical aspects of the distribution Gentoo Linux itself 
this does not necessarily mean you got a "preserved right" for the future.

I think, a separate mailing list is a good step to balance out the 
issues with you and get you and people like you separated from technical 
discussions because i think you are harming other people with your 
attitude towards Gentoo Linux and certain developers.



Look, there is some types of developers we have at Gentoo Linux

We have the silent ones, working hard.
We have the silent ones, working a bit less hard.
We have the loud ones, working hard.
We have the loud ones, working a bit less hard.

On the other hand, there is some types of people working with us on our 
shared goal: making Gentoo Linux

There is the silent ones, working hard.
There is the silent ones, working a bit less hard.
There is the loud ones, working hard.
There is the loud ones, working a bit less hard.

And there is Ciaran McCreesh.

There is no point in trying to abuse the communication on the gentoo-dev 
mailing list for your shit.
You left the project and it's your choice to continue working with it 
and on it.
However, you cannot expect me as a developer to listen to your continued 
rants and the problems you are creating.

I have been watching this stuff going on for a couple of months now.

I hope we, the Gentoo developers, will get a separate mailing list for 
discussing nontechnical aspects of development and Gentoo Linux, be that 
politics, personal problems or just apologies for posting porn to an irc 
channel.

Then, hopefully, sooner or later this gentoo-dev mailing list will calm 
down and return to it's original function: inform developers of 
technical changes and be a positive melting pot for technical, unbiased, 
nonflammatory discussions.

The alternative is getting a gentoo-core-dev mailing list for Gentoo 
developers where prospective developers and friendly partners of Gentoo 
Linux can post technical proposals and get discussions starting in a 
friendly non intrusive atmosphere.

Ciaran, if you think you need the "public grip" of the high volume 
gentoo-dev ML for pointing out how much things go wrong and how baaaaad 
baaaad some things are for the project: to me it is illogical to think 
"criticism" has a quantified approach.

Criticism is always qualified, not quantified.

Talking to one person about something going wrong is worth the same 
positive energy than talking to 3000.

In the past you and me have made appearances at Gentoo by 
unproportionally throwing mud at simple problems, trying to solve them 
with publicity and relentless bitching.  I have learned my lesson- you 
apparently did not.  Guess who is still with Gentoo and enjoying the 
people and their work for the distribution.


-Alex
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1337 bytes --]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:35:42 +0200
Alexander Gabert <a.gabert@fh-trier.de> wrote:
> However, you cannot expect me as a developer to listen to your
> continued rants and the problems you are creating.

I am not creating problems. I am pointing them out, in the hopes that
people will work to find solutions to them. Where I have a solution, I
also provide that.

> Talking to one person about something going wrong is worth the same 
> positive energy than talking to 3000.

So you're saying that Gentoo should move to a closed development model
where problems are buried rather than discussed in public?

> In the past you and me have made appearances at Gentoo by 
> unproportionally throwing mud at simple problems, trying to solve
> them with publicity and relentless bitching.  I have learned my
> lesson- you apparently did not.  Guess who is still with Gentoo and
> enjoying the people and their work for the distribution.

The difference between you and me is that you were wrong. You were
trying to recruit a developer who didn't use Gentoo, who knew
practically nothing about Gentoo, who deliberately failed the quiz and
who worked on one of your pet entirely non-Gentoo projects. Any lessons
you've learned from that only apply to other people who do equally
insane things.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Alexander Gabert]

lol owned :)


Alex
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kent Fredric]

On 6/12/07, Alexander Gabert <a.gabert@fh-trier.de> wrote:
>

A Philosophy I picked up in a Politics chat room, was discuss problems
& issues, not people. People in said room were repremanded for
discussing others either directly or indirectly whether or not said
persons were present (  this did exclude politicians & celebrities
mind, who are 'public-domain' for slag-bait )

For good reason, is when either side runs out of conclusive logical
arguments, they start sandbagging the person who they want to loose
the argument of. This in turn creates a victim / persecutor cycle
which produces pain due to the nature of personal attacks, and often
results in a nasty big flame war like we keep having , where the
discussion is not about any real problems, but mostly  just a big
mudflinging match at various people.

( I won't say I'm perfect, I've fallen victim to this myself, but the
volume on gentoo ML is just rediculous to say the least )

So please, problems, not people, people :)

/[¢]{2}/

-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Alexander Gabert]

Kent Fredric schrieb:

...

So you are saying that the person is not the problem but the problem is 
the problem.

The person has personally attacked me after i simply concluded that he 
should maybe change his attitude to make a better impression on 
gentoo-dev and Gentoo developers.  This guy is trolling for years and he 
enjoys and knows it all too well.  The gentoo-dev mailing list can be 
transformed to a technical mailing list again with setting up a 
gentoo-whatever mailing list where people like him can be the king with 
the crown and "be right" about their stuff.

This is what this thread is all about.  Giving someone a place where he 
can do what he can do best: being complicated.
Not the issues or problems are complicated.  The people are.  Why not 
discuss this?

However, i will let him be right forever and ever there as long as he 
leaves me and my Inbox alone.

I didn't address him personally when i said that people actually do NOT 
read "criticism" on the -dev list, which in his case always boils down 
to some kind of demanding but in fact simply error-prone and 
miscommunicating flame war accelerant and that it was a good idea to 
offload that stuff to a separate list.  What a stupid prick.  All he had 
to do is aggravate.  And he still does.

He can be "right" there on his little castle mailing list all the way he 
wants where he wants how he wants but i don't want to be included in 
this or informed about him being right or being whatever he likes.  I 
simply refuse to take part in his trolling for the rest of his presence 
on this list.  I cannot unsubscribe because Gentoo devs are supposed to 
communicate with people in here.  So either offload him or he will be 
the constant provider of unrest and stress (as now for me).

As far as i understand it, the gentoo-dev mailing list is not a place 
for people starting flamewars or discussing things they are "right" 
about.  It is a technical discussion list.  I don't understand why this 
priority is not enforced.  This is also the reason i am allowed to write 
this email here.  I am allowed to reply to congestive and unproductive 
bullshit on the gentoo-dev list.  Because even when the -dev policy is 
enforced some devs start claiming we are suppressing freedom of voice 
and information- and the negative and useless trolling continues for no 
reason and positive effect.

I think that discussing problems & issues without discussing the damage 
done by the negative influence of certain people is always possible as 
long as the person is not the problem or offers cooperation and 
competent social skills.  But in this case my problem is this specific 
person, and it cannot be solved by turning it into an "issue" how to 
deal with persons in general.  Nobody behaves like that and gets no 
sanctioning or punishment.  In fact his behaviour is an all-time 
precedence case for somebody coming into a community, threatening and 
treating people very bad and getting protected by common netiquette, 
only the other way around.  He already became this case when he left 
Gentoo and since then started riding one dead horse after another.

He personally attacked others for a long time.  He got attacked and he 
started campaigns like a hero fighting ancient dragons.  Well, actually 
he's more like Don Quichote.  He is always right but he is only one and 
the people who are always "wrong" is unfortunately always the majority.  
He enjoys standing in the spotlight.  He lives from the fame he gets for 
making people upset, self-conscious and worried about the outcome of 
some of the more heated discussions.  Working at Gentoo is fun as long 
as this person keeps out of the way of developers trying to volunteer 
for a great project.  It's just a blessing to have a week without a 
flamewar started by him.  Perhaps we should sponsor him a vacation on an 
island without access to public IP networks.

There are others like him and there will be others after him.  There 
were even people doing that before him.
Even this email is troll feeding because he will have witty conclusive 
dogmatism and ironic remarks he can spit back at me now.  Feeding, 
feeding, feeding.


Alex

PS: I take the pet project personal
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:01:15 +0200
Alexander Gabert <pappy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> What a stupid prick.  All he had to do is aggravate.  And he still
> does.

For someone who claims to want to improve the quality of discussion on
gentoo-dev list, you're certainly going out of your way to drag it
down.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Matthias Langer]

On Mon, 2007-06-11 at 19:01 +0200, Alexander Gabert wrote:
> The person has personally attacked me after i simply concluded that he 
> should maybe change his attitude to make a better impression on 
> gentoo-dev and Gentoo developers.  This guy is trolling for years and he 
> enjoys and knows it all too well.  The gentoo-dev mailing list can be 
> transformed to a technical mailing list again with setting up a 
> gentoo-whatever mailing list where people like him can be the king with 
> the crown and "be right" about their stuff.
> 
[...]

if you came to the conclusion, that ciaranm is some kind of ultra-nasty
troll, then why is it so hard for you to just ignore him?

matthias

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Duncan]

Matthias Langer <mlangc@gmx.at> posted
1181592652.5808.3.camel@sputnik886.lnet, excerpted below, on  Mon, 11 Jun
2007 22:10:52 +0200:

> On Mon, 2007-06-11 at 19:01 +0200, Alexander Gabert wrote:
[snipped]

> if you came to the conclusion, that ciaranm is some kind of ultra-nasty
> troll, then why is it so hard for you to just ignore him?

Well, it would appear that the message you were replying to was the 
actual troll.  It itself called itself troll food, so the author 
recognized/admitted part of that, but go back and read it if necessary.  
He could ignore, but it was a deliberate troll, so he chose not to.  (And 
me, I didn't respond directly, but here I am responding in the tail, so 
yeah, I'm rewarding the troll as well.)

You can't ignore what might or might not be a troll if you are using it 
as a deliberate excuse to do your own trolling, which is what I see your 
parent post (my grandparent) as being.  Elements of truth, certainly, 
that's what makes a good troll, but troll it is.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kent Fredric]

On 6/12/07, Alexander Gabert <pappy@gentoo.org> wrote:

> There are others like him and there will be others after him.  There
> were even people doing that before him.

As with trolls, theres more where they came for, but that doesn't make
gentoo-ML 'different' to as to how we slay a troll.

I agree with matthias. If somebody's a troll, then you ignore them,
you make no attempt to reply to their post, and thus escape a
massacre. Its just that some times people think that by _not_ replying
to a trollish argument, that somehow the troll 'wins' . I figure, that
this being a gentoo-dev room, most the people in here have their head
screwed on and can know what a troll looks like when they see one, and
act accordingly to the 'leave them alone and they'll go away' policy.
Otherwise all your reply does is _guarantee_ they've won, because
nothing you say or do about a troll, bar ignoring them, will make any
good come to pass. Then either the troll will go away, or stop
trolling.

There will be some still who engage the troll at their own game, but
that only means that person who competes with the troll only stands to
make himself look bad, and maybe you could quietly hint to them
somehow that 'this is a troll, this creates a flamewar, it'll all end
in tears, Im not going to comment,  I suggest you do the same'

> Even this email is troll feeding because he will have witty conclusive
> dogmatism and ironic remarks he can spit back at me now.  Feeding,
> feeding, feeding.


So really, you knowingly produced troll bait. This is what I'm saying
we need to stop doing. Read our messages through, and when we discover
'this looks like troll bait' I think it would be best to re-orient it
so its _not_ troll bait.


-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steve Long]

Kent Fredric wrote:
> On 6/12/07, Alexander Gabert <pappy@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> There are others like him and there will be others after him.  There
>> were even people doing that before him.
> As with trolls, theres more where they came for, but that doesn't make
> gentoo-ML 'different' to as to how we slay a troll.
> 
> I agree with matthias. If somebody's a troll, then you ignore them,
> you make no attempt to reply to their post, and thus escape a
> massacre. Its just that some times people think that by _not_ replying
> to a trollish argument, that somehow the troll 'wins' . I figure, that
> this being a gentoo-dev room, most the people in here have their head
> screwed on and can know what a troll looks like when they see one, and
> act accordingly to the 'leave them alone and they'll go away' policy.
> Otherwise all your reply does is _guarantee_ they've won, because
> nothing you say or do about a troll, bar ignoring them, will make any
> good come to pass. Then either the troll will go away, or stop
> trolling.
>
I agree with you in the general case but not the specific. In this case, I
feel the constant drip-drip effect is depressing. Furthermore, outsiders
read the list and see these melodramatic claims about the uselessness of
the current development process which are never answered. From what you're
saying this is embarrassed silence, as with a senile relative. Until I was
informed of the error, I assumed it was because the troll was actually
right. He certainly has vocal allies on every Gentoo medium. I actually
used to believe their claims on the forums, I am forced to admit.

Normally a troll dies from being ignored as the attention is their reward.
In this case however, I feel the intention is political, to gain acceptance
for Paludis as the one true package manager, since after all Paludis is
useless without the portage tree. (Hence the troll's insistence that
the "ebuild tree" defines Gentoo, when in application terms ebuild is no
more or less than the portage file format. Using the same format to do the
same task in OpenOffice doesn't stop doc being the Word file format, for
example.) Why he can't just fork is beyond me; it's not like access to the
portage tree is restricted, as sabayon can attest.

The irony of the troll's complaints about Gentoo QA when his closest ally is
QA lead, is vintage though.


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Alexander Færøy]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 10:54:31PM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> after all Paludis is useless without the portage tree. 

Untrue.

-- 
Alexander Færøy
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Benjamin Judas]

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Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 21:57 +0200 schrieb Alexander Færøy:
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 10:54:31PM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> > after all Paludis is useless without the portage tree. 
> 
> Untrue.

Care to elaborate?

That would also mean, that a harddisk isn't useless without any
platters.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Stephen P. Becker]

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On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:12:27 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:

> Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 21:57 +0200 schrieb Alexander Færøy:
> > On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 10:54:31PM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> > > after all Paludis is useless without the portage tree. 
> > 
> > Untrue.
> 
> Care to elaborate?
> 
> That would also mean, that a harddisk isn't useless without any
> platters.

Let's see...CRAN repository support, rubygems support, not to mention
the QA and search tools which may be used on any ebuild overlay or
repository.

-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Benjamin Judas]

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Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 17:23 -0400 schrieb Stephen P. Becker:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:12:27 +0200
> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> 
> > Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 21:57 +0200 schrieb Alexander Færøy:
> > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 10:54:31PM +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> > > > after all Paludis is useless without the portage tree. 
> > > 
> > > Untrue.
> > 
> > Care to elaborate?
> > 
> > That would also mean, that a harddisk isn't useless without any
> > platters.
> 
> Let's see...CRAN repository support, rubygems support, not to mention
> the QA and search tools which may be used on any ebuild overlay or
> repository.

Oh, and all these repositories are not organized as a portage-tree? You
mean without categories and packages? Cool!

So (without a Portage tree) it replaces the oldgrown single-liner
wget foo; tar -xzf foo; cd foo; ./configure; make; make install

/me rings the bell

Ladies and gentlemen! We finally have a C++ written replacement for ugly
shell commands!


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:42:45 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> > Let's see...CRAN repository support, rubygems support, not to
> > mention the QA and search tools which may be used on any ebuild
> > overlay or repository.
> 
> Oh, and all these repositories are not organized as a portage-tree?
> You mean without categories and packages? Cool!
> 
> So (without a Portage tree) it replaces the oldgrown single-liner
> wget foo; tar -xzf foo; cd foo; ./configure; make; make install

Mm, and how would you cleanly uninstall or upgrade that, along with
dependencies?

Clearly you don't know the slightest thing about other repository
formats... The Portage tree is not the only package repository out
there...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Stephen P. Becker]

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> So (without a Portage tree) it replaces the oldgrown single-liner
> wget foo; tar -xzf foo; cd foo; ./configure; make; make install

Are you implying that there would be much more involved with anything
currently in the gentoo tree in the absence of portage?

/me cracks the bell

-Steve

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steve Long]

Stephen P. Becker wrote:
>> So (without a Portage tree) it replaces the oldgrown single-liner
>> wget foo; tar -xzf foo; cd foo; ./configure; make; make install
> 
> Are you implying that there would be much more involved with anything
> currently in the gentoo tree in the absence of portage?
> 
> /me cracks the bell
> 
Er the discussion was about paludis without Gentoo ebuilds, not upstream
software, or Gentoo without its package-manager(?!) If it's so great
and "The Portage tree is not the only package repository out there..." why
not prove it with a whole maintainable OS install using Paludis and zero
Gentoo ebuilds?

Personally, I'd do Paludis for sourcemage, although I don't know whether
anyone would want to switch from the approved package manager on that
distro either. Still, since it's so amazing, I am sure you would be able to
prove it was better, and it would win on technical merit.

(BTW posting links to an external website's code when specifically asked
about algorithms on a developer list is bad form imo. It presumes on the
time of your audience, some of whom actually work, and might have
intellectual property constraints on whose code they can read. In future
please just outline the algorithm for the issue at hand, if you have one.)


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

OT: gentoo-kindergarten (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML)

[Thilo Bangert]

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I want a gentoo-kindergarten list, where useless discussions like this 
(sub)thread can be directed to.

kids, grow up!

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[gentoo-dev] Re: OT: gentoo-kindergarten

[Vlastimil Babka]

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Thilo Bangert wrote:
> I want a gentoo-kindergarten list, where useless discussions like this 
> (sub)thread can be directed to.
> 
> kids, grow up!

right
s/gentoo-//

- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: OT: gentoo-kindergarten (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML)

[Kent Fredric]

On 6/13/07, Thilo Bangert <bangert@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I want a gentoo-kindergarten list, where useless discussions like this
> (sub)thread can be directed to.
>
> kids, grow up!
>

*cries in his corner*

Yes mummy

:]

-- 
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Stephen P. Becker]

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On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:16:43 +0100
Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> >> So (without a Portage tree) it replaces the oldgrown single-liner
> >> wget foo; tar -xzf foo; cd foo; ./configure; make; make install
> > 
> > Are you implying that there would be much more involved with
> > anything currently in the gentoo tree in the absence of portage?
> > 
> > /me cracks the bell
> > 
> Er the discussion was about paludis without Gentoo ebuilds, not
> upstream software, or Gentoo without its package-manager(?!) If it's
> so great and "The Portage tree is not the only package repository out
> there..." why not prove it with a whole maintainable OS install using
> Paludis and zero Gentoo ebuilds?

Indeed, it was about paludis without gentoo tree ebuilds.  If you can't
understand the flow of the conversation, I don't know what to tell
you other than to re-read the thread.  The point is, there are other
repositories out there that paludis can use that aren't the main gentoo
tree.  Beejay asked somebody to elaborate, so I did.


> Personally, I'd do Paludis for sourcemage, although I don't know
> whether anyone would want to switch from the approved package manager
> on that distro either. Still, since it's so amazing, I am sure you
> would be able to prove it was better, and it would win on technical
> merit.

I don't see what that has to do with anything here, and I'm not trying
to prove anything.  I entered this conversation stating simple facts,
and you took it well out of bounds.


> (BTW posting links to an external website's code when specifically
> asked about algorithms on a developer list is bad form imo. It
> presumes on the time of your audience, some of whom actually work,
> and might have intellectual property constraints on whose code they
> can read. In future please just outline the algorithm for the issue
> at hand, if you have one.)

OK, now I'm really confused.  Who posted a link, and what does this
statement have to do with anything related to this current discussion?
Seriously, I'd like to know, because I certainly didn't paste any link,
yet you replied directly to me.

-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 02:35:42PM +0200, Alexander Gabert wrote:
>  You left the project and it's your choice to continue working with it and on 
>  it.

Nonono, you got it all wrong.
He didn't leave, he was fired [1].

cheers,
	Wernfried

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=114944

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Stephen Bennett]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:00:55 +0200
Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 02:35:42PM +0200, Alexander Gabert wrote:
> >  You left the project and it's your choice to continue working with
> > it and on it.
> 
> Nonono, you got it all wrong.
> He didn't leave, he was fired [1].

Which means that he left, just that it wasn't his decision. Did you
have anything resembling a point to make?
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Benjamin Judas]

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Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 20:46 +0100 schrieb Stephen Bennett:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:00:55 +0200
> Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 02:35:42PM +0200, Alexander Gabert wrote:
> > >  You left the project and it's your choice to continue working with
> > > it and on it.
> > 
> > Nonono, you got it all wrong.
> > He didn't leave, he was fired [1].
> 
> Which means that he left, just that it wasn't his decision. Did you
> have anything resembling a point to make?

...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only on
mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers but
also against volunteering users.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Stephen Bennett]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:

> ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only
> on mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers
> but also against volunteering users.

So do most people on this list.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Benjamin Judas]

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Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 22:44 +0100 schrieb Stephen Bennett:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> 
> > ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only
> > on mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers
> > but also against volunteering users.
> 
> So do most people on this list.

Stealing a single lollipop doesn't make you a villain. 
Continuously running amok and shooting at people for years does.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Joshua Jackson]

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Benjamin Judas wrote:
> Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 22:44 +0100 schrieb Stephen Bennett:
>   
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
>> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only
>>> on mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers
>>> but also against volunteering users.
>>>       
>> So do most people on this list.
>>     
>
> Stealing a single lollipop doesn't make you a villain. 
> Continuously running amok and shooting at people for years does.
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> !DSPAM:466f1486294802542615845!
Can we possibly get back onto whatever the heck the topic might of
been...else this just is going to prove that we don't know when to take
things from the mailing list to just emails to individuals...


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Stephen Bennett wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
>
>   
>> ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only
>> on mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers
>> but also against volunteering users.
>>     
>
> So do most people on this list.
>   
Which brings us back to actual subject of this thread (as opposed to talking
about Ciaran, we all love so much), which is - we need a separate list
for discussing
non-technical issues, which will, hopefully, reduce amount of flames,
and will allow
civil technical discussion to commence.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Steev Klimaszewski]

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Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> Stephen Bennett wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
>> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only
>>> on mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers
>>> but also against volunteering users.
>>>     
>> So do most people on this list.
>>   
> Which brings us back to actual subject of this thread (as opposed to talking
> about Ciaran, we all love so much), which is - we need a separate list
> for discussing
> non-technical issues, which will, hopefully, reduce amount of flames,
> and will allow
> civil technical discussion to commence.
> 
So this other list would allow non-civil discussions to continue and
rage on?  I mean, you wouldn't have to be civil to others on it, you
could just join and start trolling everyone?

(Please note, when I say "you" here, I mean collective people, not
singling any person out)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> > Stephen Bennett wrote:
> >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
> >> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>   
> >>> ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only
> >>> on mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers
> >>> but also against volunteering users.
> >>>     
> >> So do most people on this list.
> >>   
> > Which brings us back to actual subject of this thread (as opposed to
> talking
> > about Ciaran, we all love so much), which is - we need a separate list
> > for discussing
> > non-technical issues, which will, hopefully, reduce amount of flames,
> > and will allow
> > civil technical discussion to commence.
>
> So this other list would allow non-civil discussions to continue and
> rage on?  I mean, you wouldn't have to be civil to others on it, you
> could just join and start trolling everyone?
No. I would be meant for civil non-technical discussions.
>
> (Please note, when I say "you" here, I mean collective people, not
> singling any person out)
We now have to point out _that_ kind of thing? Oh well...
Of course, using "you" in generic sentences is bad literary practice
(unfortunately I don't remember official term for that grammatic
(mis-)structure).

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Steev Klimaszewski wrote:

> So this other list would allow non-civil discussions to continue and
> rage on?  I mean, you wouldn't have to be civil to others on it, you
> could just join and start trolling everyone?

Read the bug I filed with infra.  You'll find the answer to this there.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ferris McCormick]

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On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:32 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:

> Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2007, 20:46 +0100 schrieb Stephen Bennett:
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:00:55 +0200
> > Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 02:35:42PM +0200, Alexander Gabert wrote:
> > > >  You left the project and it's your choice to continue working with
> > > > it and on it.
> > > 
> > > Nonono, you got it all wrong.
> > > He didn't leave, he was fired [1].
> > 
> > Which means that he left, just that it wasn't his decision. Did you
> > have anything resembling a point to make?
> 
> ...which means that he has a documented history of trolling not only on
> mailinglists but also in irc-channels; not only against developers but
> also against volunteering users.
> 

Is this going anywhere useful?  It certainly has the potential of
generating quite a bit of heat with no content associated with it, and
it is becoming disturbingly close to personal attacks.  I don't think
that that would be appropriate on #gentoo-<anything>, and I suggest
taking some care before going further down this particular path.

Thanks,
Ferris

- -- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:27:44 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on
>> gentoo-project. ;)
> 
> And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from where
> people will actually read it.
> 
And that's why it's a good idea, moving it to a place where it *should* 
be read.

I see two options: put up with it here or move it to another list.

The strange things is, the people that make all the noise don't want it 
moving to another list. That obviously implies that they feel their 
"presence" on Gentoo will be watered down without having the instant 
ability to turn every discussion into trolling session
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:27:44 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
>   
>> PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on
>> gentoo-project. ;)
>>     
>
> And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from where
> people will actually read it
That statement presumes that gentoo-politics will not be read.
I don't think this is (or should be) true.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:42:40PM -0700, Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> That statement presumes that gentoo-politics will not be read.
> I don't think this is (or should be) true.

It's also based on the fact that people still read all the crap on
gentoo-dev.
Newsflash: They don't.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Brian Harring wrote:
> 
> Guess I'll be the killjoy, and throw in the -1 on it.
> 
> Reasons are pretty straightforward (at least to me):
> 
> 1) Creating such channels is just attempting to shift the problem out 
> of sight.

Not out of sight, just to an arena where it is more suitable.  When I joined 
Gentoo long ago, I was told that there were two required mailing lists that we 
had to be on: gentoo-core, for private, developer-only discussion whose contents 
are (normally) kept from the prying eyes of our endearing public, and 
gentoo-dev, a developer/user mailing list for development-related questions 
regarding all things Gentoo.

When -dev evolved/de-evolved (your pick) into being technical && non-technical 
in nature, I'm not sure.  I was either asleep, or entertaining myself with other 
things.  If I had to haphazard a guess, I think it simply "Just Happened" 
because all devs are automatically subscribed, therefore, when someone has 
something to say, they stand a high probability of it getting heard by a lot of 
people.  No point in tootin' off your horn if no one's around to hear, ja ne?


> 2) Shifting said problem into a concentrated arena means the incidence 
> of idiot conflicts/trolling/needling/whatever is likely to increase

This is possible, but I'll point out that one can also have non-technical talk 
about all things Gentoo without everyone de-evolving into little charmanders 
about it.  Quipping an example from the debian-project ML, a discussion on the 
validity of Condorcet voting would be a non-technical topic of discussion that 
can be discussed (hopefully without igniting).  And that is a topic I know we've 
broached before.

If people just act like adults for once, we can actually keep the flames 
controlled.  Note that I'm not saying it'll stop the flames, only that they can 
be controlled.


> 3) said increase means proctors/devrel have more work (meaning more 
> random outbursts at the proctors/devrel when folks realize that they 
> *are* going to enforce the behaviour rules, and that the outburstes 
> can be punished too).

Not many people like authoritative figures, no matter the uniform or creed.  I 
guess it's just how we're wired.  Free Will and all that jazz.  Frankly, no 
matter what an authority-empowered group does, whether it is for good intentions 
or not, someone out there will cry foul about it, and raise a whole lot of 
ruckus over it.  devrel's not perfect, but they're not inherently evil or 
anything either.  They're given a task to do, and why people make such a fuss 
over it baffles me.  I guess that's why I tend to not pay attention to those cases.


> 4) look through -dev history; the issue isn't OT discussion, it's 
> people needling/harassing/trolling/(chose your verb) kicking off yet 
> another "mine is bigger" last word battle on the ml.

It's competition, at the core.  No one likes draws, ties, or even photo 
finishes, let alone losing.  They like to win, and win by a large margin.  If 
someone tries to slip the last word in to get them over that virtual finish 
line, rest assured someone else is gonna fire off an even more last word just to 
one up them, and when we're talking mere microts from the finish line, sometimes 
the gloves come off.

Besides, it's not like a +2 Great Darkwood Crossbow of Acid is all _that_ 
expensive.  Probably a pain in the neck to load (and the kickback has to hurt), 
but well it just means you need to level up some more :)


> Basically, what does this solve?  If the intention is to create an OTW 
> equivalent for the forums, sure, go nuts, but I strongly doubt it'll 
> improve things on -dev.
> 
> So what is the explicit purpose of this?  Honestly assumed it was just 
> a joke at debians expense initially, but folks seem to be serious 
> about it...

I didn't intend it as a joke.  Yes, I interspersed some sarcasm in my original 
response (As I often do in many of my responses), but that doesn't detract from 
the seriousness of it.  Put honestly, I don't really read -dev any more.  I 
barely even glance at -core.  I've missed stuff like new USE flags, interesting 
GLEPs, new devs coming in, old devs going out, etc.  Why?, because the signal to 
noise ratio was worse than my cable connection on a bad day, and at some point, 
I just got turned off by it all.  Probably much in the same way why I don't pay 
much attention to the wars going on the world.  Right now, I find news reports 
on changes in traffic patterns to be more exciting.

And I looked to debian for inspiration on this because they've had problems like 
this before.  A few of their developers sit in the linux-mips channel, and while 
I don't know what lists they're all on, one of their devs told me debian-project 
is one he stays away from.  I guess I'm a bit like them; I like the technical 
discussions more than the expertly-crafted responses tossed back and forth in 
the many flame wars that pop up on here.  And so, I decided to do something 
about it for once.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Duncan]

Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> posted 466DF5FA.1000606@gentoo.org, excerpted
below, on  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:25:14 -0400:

> It's competition, at the core.  No one likes draws, ties, or even photo
> finishes, let alone losing.  They like to win, and win by a large
> margin.  If someone tries to slip the last word in to get them over that
> virtual finish line, rest assured someone else is gonna fire off an even
> more last word just to one up them, and when we're talking mere microts
> from the finish line, sometimes the gloves come off.
> 
> Besides, it's not like a +2 Great Darkwood Crossbow of Acid is all
> _that_ expensive.  Probably a pain in the neck to load (and the kickback
> has to hurt), but well it just means you need to level up some more :)

Wow, talk about mixed metaphors!  Foot-racing > boxing > AD&D.  You've 
got gumption to try and pull /that/ off! =8^)  I guess it works, tho, if 
you don't try to stretch any of them beyond the limited area they were 
applied to (which this sort of case begs... resist... resist... =8^) .

(And yes, this'd go on the other list, if we had it.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

[Kumba]

Duncan wrote:
> Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> posted 466DF5FA.1000606@gentoo.org, excerpted
> below, on  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:25:14 -0400:
> 
>> It's competition, at the core.  No one likes draws, ties, or even photo
>> finishes, let alone losing.  They like to win, and win by a large
>> margin.  If someone tries to slip the last word in to get them over that
>> virtual finish line, rest assured someone else is gonna fire off an even
>> more last word just to one up them, and when we're talking mere microts
>> from the finish line, sometimes the gloves come off.
>>
>> Besides, it's not like a +2 Great Darkwood Crossbow of Acid is all
>> _that_ expensive.  Probably a pain in the neck to load (and the kickback
>> has to hurt), but well it just means you need to level up some more :)
> 
> Wow, talk about mixed metaphors!  Foot-racing > boxing > AD&D.  You've 
> got gumption to try and pull /that/ off! =8^)  I guess it works, tho, if 
> you don't try to stretch any of them beyond the limited area they were 
> applied to (which this sort of case begs... resist... resist... =8^) .

Metaphors tend to be my palette; sometimes I create art, and other times I 
create things that make goatse look tame :P


> (And yes, this'd go on the other list, if we had it.)

It's in Infra's hands now.  They've got a bug filed, and so, I leave it up to them.

Regardless on if it's created or not, this thread has made people think, I hope. 
  And maybe that's all we really need in the end, is for a few people to simply 
stop and think.

I hope.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
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