[gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Piotr Jaroszyński]

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Hello,

Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck 
they are ready to use. And we should use them!

Attaching news item for paludis 0.24.
Justification: major config format change.

-- 
Best Regards,
Piotr Jaroszyński

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Title: Changes for Paludis 0.24
Author: Piotr Jaroszyński <peper@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2007-03-25
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0
Display-If-Installed: >=sys-apps/paludis-0.24

As of Paludis 0.24, the use of '*' to match all packages in the Paludis
configuration files 'use.conf', 'keywords.conf' and 'licenses.conf' is
deprecated in favour of '*/*'. You should update your configuration
files after upgrading.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Thomas Rösner]

Hi,

Piotr Jaroszyński wrote:
> Hello,
>
> (...)
>
> Display-If-Installed: >=sys-apps/paludis-0.24

You mean "Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/paludis-0.24", right?

Regards,
    Thomas
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Piotr Jaroszyński]

On Friday 04 of May 2007 23:46:39 Thomas Rösner wrote:
> You mean "Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/paludis-0.24", right?

No, I want it displayed only after installation of the new version.

-- 
Best Regards,
Piotr Jaroszyński
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Vlastimil Babka]

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Piotr Jaroszyński wrote:
> On Friday 04 of May 2007 23:46:39 Thomas Rösner wrote:
>> You mean "Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/paludis-0.24", right?
> 
> No, I want it displayed only after installation of the new version.
> 

Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were
supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also "You should update your
configuration files after upgrading." sounds like something one would
read before upgrade...

- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Alexander Færøy]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote:
> Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were
> supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also "You should update your
> configuration files after upgrading." sounds like something one would
> read before upgrade...

It'll only affect users after they upgrade.

-- 
Alexander Færøy
Bugday Lead
Alpha/IA64/MIPS Architecture Teams
User Relations, Quality Assurance and Release Engineering

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Petteri Räty]

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Alexander Færøy kirjoitti:
> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote:
>> Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were
>> supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also "You should update your
>> configuration files after upgrading." sounds like something one would
>> read before upgrade...
> 
> It'll only affect users after they upgrade.
> 

So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only affects
users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs would get the
news item too, wouldn't it?. Wouldn't the proper behavior be to mark the
item as not applicable when it is first encountered?

Regards,
Petteri






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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Petteri Räty]

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Petteri Räty kirjoitti:
> Alexander Færøy kirjoitti:
>> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote:
>>> Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were
>>> supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also "You should update your
>>> configuration files after upgrading." sounds like something one would
>>> read before upgrade...
>> It'll only affect users after they upgrade.
>>
> 
> So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only affects
> users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs would get the
> news item too, wouldn't it?. Wouldn't the proper behavior be to mark the
> item as not applicable when it is first encountered?
> 
> Regards,
> Petteri
> 

Ah found it in the GLEP:
"The package manager filters the news item and, if it is relevant, marks
the news item for reading. The package manager should also display a
notice informing the user that there are unread news items."

This means that adding a >=message is useless as it gets filtered away
at the first sync. Use elog instead.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:30:05 +0300
Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only
> affects users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs
> would get the news item too, wouldn't it?.

Yep. This situation was discussed when designing GLEP 42. There isn't a
better alternative because there's no reliable record of packages that
used to be installed.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Steev Klimaszewski]

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Alexander Færøy wrote:
> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote:
>> Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were
>> supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also "You should update your
>> configuration files after upgrading." sounds like something one would
>> read before upgrade...
> 
> It'll only affect users after they upgrade.
> 
Right.... which... seems to me something I would want to know *BEFORE* I
upgraded...  otherwise, yeah, elog does the same thing already...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:34:37 +0300
Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ah found it in the GLEP:
> "The package manager filters the news item and, if it is relevant,
> marks the news item for reading. The package manager should also
> display a notice informing the user that there are unread news items."
> 
> This means that adding a >=message is useless as it gets filtered away
> at the first sync. Use elog instead.

Re-read the GLEP. You're completely misunderstanding the process.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Petteri Räty]

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Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:34:37 +0300
> Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Ah found it in the GLEP:
>> "The package manager filters the news item and, if it is relevant,
>> marks the news item for reading. The package manager should also
>> display a notice informing the user that there are unread news items."
>>
>> This means that adding a >=message is useless as it gets filtered away
>> at the first sync. Use elog instead.
> 
> Re-read the GLEP. You're completely misunderstanding the process.
> 

Do you refer to this?
Checks for new news messages should be displayed:

    * After an emerge sync
    * After an emerge --pretend
    * Before an emerge <target> (which may also include a red warning
message)

How can there be new messages with emerge --pretend if emerge --sync is
the only way to get them? Should be saying unread messages and it would
be clear to me.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Dan Meltzer]

On Friday 04 May 2007 4:49:47 pm Piotr Jaroszyński wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck
> they are ready to use. And we should use them!
>
> Attaching news item for paludis 0.24.
> Justification: major config format change.

How does this fit the following parts of the GLEP?

"Preemptive
Users should be told of changes before they break a system, not after the 
damage has already been done. Ideally, the system administrator would be 
given ample warning to plan difficult upgrades and changes, rather than only 
being told just before action is necessary."

"A more reliable way of getting news of critical updates"


Additionally, what about this is so critical that it will not allow elog to be 
used?  
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Vlastimil Babka]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:30:05 +0300
> Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only
>> affects users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs
>> would get the news item too, wouldn't it?.
> 
> Yep. This situation was discussed when designing GLEP 42. There isn't a
> better alternative because there's no reliable record of packages that
> used to be installed.

Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/paludis-0.24
Pretty reliable for this case which affects only users upgrading from
previous versions to >=0.24. How likely is that someone has had such
version previously, then uninstalled paludis completely leaving config
files around, and now installs >=0.24? So likely it's worth that future
fresh installs of say 0.50 will display this news too?
- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Fri, 4 May 2007 18:50:00 -0400
Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> How does this fit the following parts of the GLEP?
> 
> "Preemptive

Preemptiveness is not a requirement for this particular news item. It's
necessary in many places but not this one.

> Additionally, what about this is so critical that it will not allow
> elog to be used?  

Experience with other repositories has shown that if it's in elog, many
people won't see or read it, whereas if it's in a news item they will.
Placing it in a news item will significantly reduce the upstream
support load.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 00:56:35 +0200
Vlastimil Babka <caster@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/paludis-0.24

Will encourage users who don't have 0.24 installed to make the change,
which will break.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Fri, 04 May 2007 17:38:43 -0500
Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Right.... which... seems to me something I would want to know
> *BEFORE* I upgraded... 

No no, if you find out before you upgrade you preemptively change your
config files and the old version breaks. If you find out after you
upgrade you know why you're getting a load of warnings about '*' being
deprecated.

> otherwise, yeah, elog does the same thing already...

Experience has shown that news items work in delivering this kind of
information to users whereas elog doesn't. elog is a one-shot thing
that may or may not (usually the latter) actually get seen, whereas a
news item stays around until the user reads it.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:47:07 +0300
Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
> How can there be new messages with emerge --pretend if emerge --sync
> is the only way to get them? Should be saying unread messages and it
> would be clear to me.

A new message is one that hasn't been read.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Dan Meltzer]

On Friday 04 May 2007 6:58:44 pm Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2007 18:50:00 -0400
>
> Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> > How does this fit the following parts of the GLEP?
> >
> > "Preemptive
>
> Preemptiveness is not a requirement for this particular news item. It's
> necessary in many places but not this one.
>
> > Additionally, what about this is so critical that it will not allow
> > elog to be used?
>
> Experience with other repositories has shown that if it's in elog, many
> people won't see or read it, whereas if it's in a news item they will.
> Placing it in a news item will significantly reduce the upstream
> support load.

That seems like a really bad road to go down.

Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of an install 
as well?  When I think of news I think of things that are required to do or 
my system will break.  That is what I want out of news.  I can't see how 
deprecated syntax fits that defination.  The program should warn when it 
finds deprecated syntax, and the users will then know.  Or if the users 
ignore it, then when the support is removed and the package errors, the user 
fixes it then without any major headache.  It sure isn't something that will 
break a users system utterly if its not acted upon.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400
Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> That seems like a really bad road to go down.
> 
> Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of
> an install as well?

Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users
don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read.
elog is not an adequate solution.

> When I think of news I think of things that are
> required to do or my system will break.  That is what I want out of
> news.  I can't see how deprecated syntax fits that defination.  The
> program should warn when it finds deprecated syntax, and the users
> will then know.  Or if the users ignore it, then when the support is
> removed and the package errors, the user fixes it then without any
> major headache.  It sure isn't something that will break a users
> system utterly if its not acted upon.

It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will read
the news item that a news item is warranted.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Dan Meltzer]

On Friday 04 May 2007 7:52:46 pm Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400
>
> Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> > That seems like a really bad road to go down.
> >
> > Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of
> > an install as well?
>
> Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users
> don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read.
> elog is not an adequate solution.

Emm, That would depend upon the viewer I'd think.  elogs are saved in a 
directory, and so the only way they would disappear is if the user chose to 
delete them (or the viewer did it for them).  
>
> > When I think of news I think of things that are
> > required to do or my system will break.  That is what I want out of
> > news.  I can't see how deprecated syntax fits that defination.  The
> > program should warn when it finds deprecated syntax, and the users
> > will then know.  Or if the users ignore it, then when the support is
> > removed and the package errors, the user fixes it then without any
> > major headache.  It sure isn't something that will break a users
> > system utterly if its not acted upon.
>
> It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will read
> the news item that a news item is warranted.


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Dan Meltzer]

On Friday 04 May 2007 8:01:58 pm Dan Meltzer wrote:
> On Friday 04 May 2007 7:52:46 pm Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400
> >
> > Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> > > That seems like a really bad road to go down.
> > >
> > > Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of
> > > an install as well?
> >
> > Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users
> > don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read.
> > elog is not an adequate solution.
>
> Emm, That would depend upon the viewer I'd think.  elogs are saved in a
> directory, and so the only way they would disappear is if the user chose to
> delete them (or the viewer did it for them).

Ooops, I guess they are only saved if it's explicity enabled, there goes that 
idea :/

>
> > > When I think of news I think of things that are
> > > required to do or my system will break.  That is what I want out of
> > > news.  I can't see how deprecated syntax fits that defination.  The
> > > program should warn when it finds deprecated syntax, and the users
> > > will then know.  Or if the users ignore it, then when the support is
> > > removed and the package errors, the user fixes it then without any
> > > major headache.  It sure isn't something that will break a users
> > > system utterly if its not acted upon.
> >
> > It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will read
> > the news item that a news item is warranted.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Fri, 4 May 2007 20:01:58 -0400
Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> > Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users
> > don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not
> > read. elog is not an adequate solution.
> 
> Emm, That would depend upon the viewer I'd think.

Which is kind of the point...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Duncan]

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> posted
20070505001746.5c8e2fb6@snowflake, excerpted below, on  Sat, 05 May 2007
00:17:46 +0100:

> On Fri, 04 May 2007 17:38:43 -0500
> Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Right.... which... seems to me something I would want to know *BEFORE*
>> I upgraded...
> 
> No no, if you find out before you upgrade you preemptively change your
> config files and the old version breaks. If you find out after you
> upgrade you know why you're getting a load of warnings about '*' being
> deprecated.

I believe that last word, deprecated, is what many are missing.  If the 
files are upgraded to the new format previous to merging the new version, 
things will break.  If the new version is installed and the files remain 
in the old format, it will simply spit warnings but it'll still work.  
Thus, switching the format must be done after the upgrade, not before, 
and the news message suggesting it should be shown after the upgrade, not 
before, to prevent breakage while explaining warnings people will get 
until they update to current format.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Marius Mauch]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 00:17:46 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 04 May 2007 17:38:43 -0500
> Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > otherwise, yeah, elog does the same thing already...
> 
> Experience has shown that news items work in delivering this kind of
> information to users whereas elog doesn't. elog is a one-shot thing
> that may or may not (usually the latter) actually get seen, whereas a
> news item stays around until the user reads it.

What experience? So far there have been no news items. The issue
about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least
for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as
stated in the GLEP).

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Marius Mauch]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 00:52:46 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400
> Dan Meltzer <hydrogen@notyetimplemented.com> wrote:
> > That seems like a really bad road to go down.
> > 
> > Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of
> > an install as well?
> 
> Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users
> don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read.
> elog is not an adequate solution.

Interesting that so far nobody (including yourself) has requested such a
feature ... 
Also GLEP42 (as specified) is also an inadequate solution as there is
no check for news items _after_ a package install, so in the typical
use case users won't see this news item when it's most relevant (going
by specification, haven't checked implementations).
And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not
suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted to
call this an abuse of the news framework.

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 10:49:47PM +0200, Piotr Jaroszy??ski wrote:
> Justification: major config format change.

> As of Paludis 0.24, the use of '*' to match all packages in the Paludis
> configuration files 'use.conf', 'keywords.conf' and 'licenses.conf' is
> deprecated in favour of '*/*'. You should update your configuration
> files after upgrading.

GLEP 42 wrote:
> Users should be told of changes before they break a system,

> News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious
> upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and
> non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices. The importance
> of the message to its intended audience should be justified with the
> proposal. 

Not sure what paludis does if it finds a * instead a */* in some
config file, but does it actually break the system or cause serious
upgrade or compatibility problems (e.g. like the upgrade to gcc 3.4,
as mentioned as example in the GLEP)?
If not, it sounds like an issue for elog.
If yes, the "should update" part may need some stronger language like
"you must update".

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
http://forums.gentoo.org   || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums             || #gentoo-proctors (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Maurice van der Pot]

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It looks like it is not clear enough what kind of news should be called
critical.

If for instance an upgrade from package foo-3.4 to foo-4.0 will cause
the system to break unless specific steps are followed (mysql/gcc), it's
obvious that it's suitable for a news item. 
If an upgrade from an ancient version foo-0.99 to version foo-7.3 causes
the system to break, it will not require a news item because it's common
sense that data formats may have changed dramatically.

Where do we draw the line on this? I'm not saying there should be a
mathematical formula that will tell you whether or not to create a news
item, but at least we all should have more or less the same idea about
it.

In the current situation an upgrade to paludis-0.24 will not break
anything right away. On the other hand, if someone sticks to an earlier
version and only upgrades after support for the old format has been
removed, he may (will?) have a problem.


Personally I feel we should send as few news items as possible. If we
send a lot of them, people will start ignoring them. Config file formats
change all the time and as long as there is a period of time where a
package supports both and warns about the old format being used, I would
not consider it worthy of a news item. If the application will just fail
to start with the old format and the required changes are trivial, don't 
send a news item.

Regards,
Maurice.

-- 
Maurice van der Pot

Gentoo Linux Developer   griffon26@gentoo.org     http://www.gentoo.org
Creator of BiteMe!       griffon26@kfk4ever.com   http://www.kfk4ever.com


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:07:41 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> What experience? So far there have been no news items.

Paludis has had working news items for ages, and we've used them in the
overlay.

> The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather
> outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the
> domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP).

Experience has shown that elog is an insufficient mechanism for
delivering post-merge information of this nature.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not
> suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted
> to call this an abuse of the news framework.

The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:44:54 +0200
Maurice van der Pot <griffon26@gentoo.org> wrote:
> It looks like it is not clear enough what kind of news should be
> called critical.

It's quite simple. If something is of sufficient interest to users who
would be shown the news item that it is worth them seeing a news item
then it should be a news item. So, the question is whether people who
are using Paludis would benefit from or be inconvenienced by this news
item. We have experience with this from similar changes and news items
in the Paludis overlay, and from that we know that a news item is
helpful in this kind of situation.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not
>> suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted
>> to call this an abuse of the news framework.
> 
> The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation.

For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as far
as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax anyway)?

If we are going to abuse "critical news reporting" feature for such
trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 14:53:47 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as
> far as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax
> anyway)?
> 
> If we are going to abuse "critical news reporting" feature for such
> trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon.

Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the news
item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's irrelevant.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 14:53:47 +0200
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as
>> far as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax
>> anyway)?
>>
>> If we are going to abuse "critical news reporting" feature for such
>> trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon.
> 
> Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the news
> item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's irrelevant.

How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php
users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's
not misuse news framework for stuff that

- it's not been intended for (i.e. do not use it as elog replacement,
see GLEP 42)
- for trivialities in general

For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically the
affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has been
changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar things;
everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the screen when
they try to use it).


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:15:55 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the
> > news item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's
> > irrelevant.
> 
> How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php
> users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's
> not misuse news framework for stuff that

Er, that's one of the main points of GLEP 42's design: it allows
delivery of news items that are important to a subset of users only to
that subset. The size of the subset is entirely irrelevant.

> For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically
> the affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has
> been changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar
> things; everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the
> screen when they try to use it).

Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this
users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output
deprecation warnings.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Marius Mauch]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:46:32 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not
> > suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm
> > tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework.
> 
> The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation.

Actually I agree - an automatic update would be adequate here.

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Stephen P. Becker]

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> What experience? So far there have been no news items. The issue
> about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least
> for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as
> stated in the GLEP).

As Ciaran explained below, the paludis overlay has been using them for
a long time, but allow me to elaborate as one who has found these news
items very useful, and who has been very unsatisfied with elog in
general.  I love getting information on news items that I can
read at my own leisure via eselect news.  For example, a recent news
item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set
everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was far
too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the very
minute that I installed the new version.  What do you know...the next
day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice,
detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news.

It's easy for you and others in this thread to speculate
without *any* experience here.  I really get the feeling that you guys
are talking out of your ass because this is another ciaran/paludis
thread.  As has already been pointed out, only paludis users would see
the news item that you are all bitching about, so if you guys don't use
paludis, why do you care?  If you happen to maintain packages and you
feel like providing news will piss your users off, then don't provide
it.  Experience has shown that paludis users like these news items,
which is another point that you and others are ignoring.

-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:15:55 +0200
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php
>> users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's
>> not misuse news framework for stuff that
> 
> Er, that's one of the main points of GLEP 42's design: it allows
> delivery of news items that are important to a subset of users only to
> that subset. The size of the subset is entirely irrelevant.

That's not what I've been pointing out at all, you've completely snipped
the important part about *unintended* use of this feature. So, once
again - this is not an elog replacement and is not intended for trivial
stuff (see the 'critical news' in GLEP42 title).

>> For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically
>> the affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has
>> been changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar
>> things; everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the
>> screen when they try to use it).
> 
> Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this
> users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output
> deprecation warnings.

Well again, what kind of experience? You cannot just carry over an
existing practice of heavily abusing such stuff in a particular overlay
with a couple of ebuilds and implant it into a tree with thousands of
packages - it will produce loads of annoying noise and the feature will
become useless if every maintainer starts to use news framework in a
similar way.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 15:28:21 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:46:32 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200
> > Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are
> > > not suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm
> > > tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework.
> > 
> > The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation.
> 
> Actually I agree - an automatic update would be adequate here.

An automatic update would have to go through the home directory for
every single user. It's not a viable solution.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:37:36 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> That's not what I've been pointing out at all, you've completely
> snipped the important part about *unintended* use of this feature.
> So, once again - this is not an elog replacement and is not intended
> for trivial stuff (see the 'critical news' in GLEP42 title).

This is not trivial stuff and it is not adequately solved by elog.

> > Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this
> > users want an accompanying news item even if the application does
> > output deprecation warnings.
> 
> Well again, what kind of experience? You cannot just carry over an
> existing practice of heavily abusing such stuff in a particular
> overlay with a couple of ebuilds and implant it into a tree with
> thousands of packages - it will produce loads of annoying noise and
> the feature will become useless if every maintainer starts to use
> news framework in a similar way.

Er, no it won't. Again, you're not understanding how GLEP 42 works.
Perhaps you should gain some real experience in using it and observing
how real users respond to it before you make such claims.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Stephen P. Becker napsal(a):
> For example, a recent news
> item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set
> everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was far
> too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the very
> minute that I installed the new version.  What do you know...the next
> day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice,
> detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news.

OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news
reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use
this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via rsync?


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Marius Mauch]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:45:47 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:07:41 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > What experience? So far there have been no news items.
> 
> Paludis has had working news items for ages, and we've used them in
> the overlay.
>
> > The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather
> > outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the
> > domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP).
> 
> Experience has shown that elog is an insufficient mechanism for
> delivering post-merge information of this nature.

Sorry, but I'd hardly call _your_ experience with paludis overlay users
a reliable indicator that g42 news are superior to elog for Gentoo at
large. Please stop pretending that you're speaking for/about the
majority of our userbase when it's just your personal
opinion/experience. Even if you observed it in a few other cases still
doesn't make it true in the general case.

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:48:28 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news
> reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use
> this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via
> rsync?

You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than a
single news item?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 15:51:25 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Sorry, but I'd hardly call _your_ experience with paludis overlay
> users a reliable indicator that g42 news are superior to elog for
> Gentoo at large. Please stop pretending that you're speaking
> for/about the majority of our userbase when it's just your personal
> opinion/experience. Even if you observed it in a few other cases still
> doesn't make it true in the general case.

It's a reliable indicator of how users that have Paludis installed will
find the news item. And funnily enough, they're the only users that
will be affected by this.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On Saturday, May 5, 2007 03:23:41 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
[Paludis configuration: * -> */*]
> Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this
> users want an accompanying news item even if the application does
> output deprecation warnings.

Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless earlier 
ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample to deduce 
anything from.

Furthermore, GLEP42 states:

"News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious 
upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and 
non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices."

2007-05-04-paludis-0.24 doesn't fit this description. That isn't the real 
problem, though. 

The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that 
people will just start marking such news items read without really 
reading them or even stop synching news items completely.

We won't gain anything implementing GLEP42 if people get the impression 
we're issuing news items for configuration changes that the application 
in question warns about anyway.

For such information as contained in the Paludis 0.24 news item a better 
description of how to get ebuild messages stored/mailed/whatever might 
achieve much more. 

Seeing that something as trivial as mailing ebuild messages to the 
administrator requires using Paludis' hooks (cf. 
http://paludis.pioto.org/hooks.html#ebuild-message-hooks) which is not 
something that can be expected from a normal user (quoting yourself, 
Ciaran: "the users are idiots"), it seems worthy to work on improving 
that.

Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users about 
such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this case at 
least.

Best regards, Wulf

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:05:08 +0200
"Wulf C. Krueger" <philantrop@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 5, 2007 03:23:41 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> [Paludis configuration: * -> */*]
> > Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this
> > users want an accompanying news item even if the application does
> > output deprecation warnings.
> 
> Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless
> earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample
> to deduce anything from.

They were.

> Furthermore, GLEP42 states:
> 
> "News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious 
> upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and 
> non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices."
> 
> 2007-05-04-paludis-0.24 doesn't fit this description. That isn't the
> real problem, though. 

This is sufficiently important to Paludis users that Paludis users
should see a news item for it.

> The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that 
> people will just start marking such news items read without really 
> reading them or even stop synching news items completely.

This is not a trivial change.

> Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users
> about such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this
> case at least.

We already know from similar cases that this isn't true.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:48:28 +0200
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news
>> reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use
>> this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via
>> rsync?
> 
> You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than a
> single news item?

Yeah, I seriously think package documentation belongs to tarballs and
gets installed to /usr/share/docs/${PF} - not to gentoo-x86 repository
where you are forcing every single user to download such stuff via rsync
and have it sitting on their disk even if they don't use the package at
all.

And if you need a pointer to new features, a simple 'elog "Read the
NEWS/Changelog in /usr/share/doc/${PF}" or a link to a website is
definitely more appropriate that abusing critical news for howtos and
new features announcement.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 16:15:33 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than
> > a single news item?
> 
> Yeah, I seriously think package documentation belongs to tarballs and
> gets installed to /usr/share/docs/${PF} - not to gentoo-x86 repository
> where you are forcing every single user to download such stuff via
> rsync and have it sitting on their disk even if they don't use the
> package at all.

Then you should work on a partial sync implementation.

> And if you need a pointer to new features, a simple 'elog "Read the
> NEWS/Changelog in /usr/share/doc/${PF}" or a link to a website is
> definitely more appropriate that abusing critical news for howtos and
> new features announcement.

Except that then the news item won't be read by most of the affected
users.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On Saturday, May 5, 2007 04:14:25 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless
> > earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample
> > to deduce anything from.
> They were.

How many news items did you issue? (It's probably easier for you to say 
instead of me searching the entire history of the overlay. :-) )

> > Furthermore, GLEP42 states:
> > "News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious
> > upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and
> > non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices."
[...]
> This is sufficiently important to Paludis users that Paludis users
> should see a news item for it.

Which are those "serious upgrade or compatibility problems" you're trying 
to avoid? Paludis warned about the change at runtime only. For "serious 
problems" I'm sure you'd make it error out, wouldn't you?

> > The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that
> > people will just start marking such news items read without really
> > reading them or even stop synching news items completely.
> This is not a trivial change.

(Could you please try to argument instead of just making statements?)

The old configuration format still works. Thus, from a user's point of 
view, it is a trivial change.

I agree with you that both from the POV of a Paludis dev as well as that 
of a Gentoo dev it's not trivial because it allows for better granularity 
when selecting subsets of packages.

> > Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users
> > about such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this
> > case at least.
> We already know from similar cases that this isn't true.

Yes, you've been repeating that over and over. At least one example would 
probably help to understand the point you're trying to make.

Best regards, Wulf

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:40:12 +0200
"Wulf C. Krueger" <philantrop@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 5, 2007 04:14:25 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless
> > > earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small
> > > sample to deduce anything from.
> > They were.
> 
> How many news items did you issue? (It's probably easier for you to
> say instead of me searching the entire history of the overlay. :-) )

Er, four iirc.

> Which are those "serious upgrade or compatibility problems" you're
> trying to avoid? Paludis warned about the change at runtime only. For
> "serious problems" I'm sure you'd make it error out, wouldn't you?

The serious problem is a lot of deprecation warning notices. We know
from the last couple of times that we made changes to the configuration
format (once with a news item, once without) that users are much
happier when they do get a news item.

> > > The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is
> > > that people will just start marking such news items read without
> > > really reading them or even stop synching news items completely.
> > This is not a trivial change.
> 
> (Could you please try to argument instead of just making statements?)

It's a simple fact, not an argument.

> The old configuration format still works. Thus, from a user's point
> of view, it is a trivial change.

Using the old configuration format leads to noisy warnings. Users don't
like noisy warnings. They like explanations for this kind of change.

> > > Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing
> > > users about such configuration changes - under the circumstances
> > > of this case at least.
> > We already know from similar cases that this isn't true.
> 
> Yes, you've been repeating that over and over. At least one example
> would probably help to understand the point you're trying to make.

We've done two changes of this nature previously.

The first change was for eclassdir -> eclassdirs and profile ->
profiles (with a similar backwards compatible deprecation warning, not
a breakage). We issued a news item for it. It was well received by end
users, many of whom commented that they appreciated the notice and
hoped that the delivery mechanism would be used more in the future.
There were no complaints about the news item being a waste of their
time.

The second change was in how we handled wildcarding in keywords.conf.
There was no news item, only release notes and postinst notices. Users
were upset that they weren't notified about the change, even though
they were, and it lead to a bunch of spurious support requests and bug
reports.

Hence my point: every single user who has commented upon the news items
we've delivered has done so positively, and the nature of Paludis means
we receive more accurate user feedback than maintainers of most other
packages. All evidence currently available suggests that this approach
is the best option. Once it's been tried to a wider audience there will
be more evidence available and we can and will reassess the decision to
see if there are ways of improving the process before it gets used for
something of much wider importance and scope.

The only real problem here is that GLEP 42 doesn't include a
Display-If-Upgrading-From-To: header. This was a deliberate design
decision, to avoid imposing substantially higher complexity
requirements upon the package manager -- the workaround is to use
Display-If-Installed: >=whatever and remove the news item once it is
reasonably expected to be no longer relevant. This isn't ideal, but
given the delays in Portage implementing even simple support it was
probably the right decision for a 1.0 news item specification.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Marius Mauch]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 09:37:17 -0400
"Stephen P. Becker" <spbecker@gmail.com> wrote:

> > What experience? So far there have been no news items. The issue
> > about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at
> > least for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of
> > elog (as stated in the GLEP).
> 
> As Ciaran explained below, the paludis overlay has been using them for
> a long time, but allow me to elaborate as one who has found these news
> items very useful, and who has been very unsatisfied with elog in
> general.
> I love getting information on news items that I can
> read at my own leisure via eselect news.  For example, a recent news
> item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set
> everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was
> far too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the
> very minute that I installed the new version.  What do you know...the
> next day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice,
> detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news.

Guess you never looked at the various elog modules in portage-2.1 then
which provide the same (I'd say even more) flexibility how and when you
want to read such stuff (the demo hook in paludis is very limited in
comparison). Besides as Jakub has pointed out (and I agree with him on
this for once) your example definitely belongs into the realm of
upstream documentation. Do you really want to make glep 42 an RSS feed
for upstream documentation?

> It's easy for you and others in this thread to speculate
> without *any* experience here.  I really get the feeling that you guys
> are talking out of your ass because this is another ciaran/paludis
> thread.

Why does every discussion recently have to come down to this argument? I
couldn't care less wether this was about paludis, pkgcore, portage,
mysql, subversion, kde, gnome, vim, emacs, apache or whatever, a g42
news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax changes in config files
that could just as well handled completely automatically in
postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT.
And as said above, there is the flipside that you (apparently) don't
have much experience with elog (as implemented in portage) either, so
that argument doesn't hold either.

> As has already been pointed out, only paludis users would see
> the news item that you are all bitching about, so if you guys don't
> use paludis, why do you care?

The point is that it sets a precedence. After all some people might be
silly enough to expect the tree to be somewhat consistent when it comes
to such things. There was a reason why I asked in the original
discussion about glep 42 how many news items might potentially exist at
any given point in time (back then the answer was "not so many"). And
if there really is going to be a news item for every triviality in the
tree not only will people over time become trained to ignore them but
also the overhead will get quite annoying.

> If you happen to maintain packages and
> you feel like providing news will piss your users off, then don't
> provide it.  Experience has shown that paludis users like these news
> items, which is another point that you and others are ignoring.

(My) Experience has also shown that gentoo-x86/portage users like the
elog features in portage, so stop with those games, they don't get us
anywhere.

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Piotr Jaroszyński]

To be honest I didn't expect so many comments here and as far as I believe in 
your sincerest intentions... err no I don't anymore.

We have got input about this from many users and we have some experience in 
dealing with users "problems" in the past and we really know better what 
information paludis' users consider useful enough for a news item.

P.S. If you read carefully enough you find one user's opinion in this 
thread...

-- 
Best Regards,
Piotr Jaroszyński
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Guess you never looked at the various elog modules in portage-2.1 then
> which provide the same (I'd say even more) flexibility how and when
> you want to read such stuff

But they don't do so by default.

> Why does every discussion recently have to come down to this
> argument? I couldn't care less wether this was about paludis,
> pkgcore, portage, mysql, subversion, kde, gnome, vim, emacs, apache
> or whatever, a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax
> changes in config files that could just as well handled completely
> automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT.

They can't automatically be handled in postinst.

> > As has already been pointed out, only paludis users would see
> > the news item that you are all bitching about, so if you guys don't
> > use paludis, why do you care?
> 
> The point is that it sets a precedence. After all some people might be
> silly enough to expect the tree to be somewhat consistent when it
> comes to such things. There was a reason why I asked in the original
> discussion about glep 42 how many news items might potentially exist
> at any given point in time (back then the answer was "not so many").
> And if there really is going to be a news item for every triviality
> in the tree not only will people over time become trained to ignore
> them but also the overhead will get quite annoying.

We have already established that this news item is not a triviality and
that the people who will see it will want to see it.

> > If you happen to maintain packages and
> > you feel like providing news will piss your users off, then don't
> > provide it.  Experience has shown that paludis users like these news
> > items, which is another point that you and others are ignoring.
> 
> (My) Experience has also shown that gentoo-x86/portage users like the
> elog features in portage, so stop with those games, they don't get us
> anywhere.

They prefer it to not having anything at all. There is plenty of reason
to believe that they would prefer news to elog in this situation were
that option available to them.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Stephen Bennett napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax
>> changes in config files that could just as well handled completely
>> automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT.
> 
> And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs can
> and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc.

Shrug; frankly just a matter of adding $HOME/.paludis/etc or whatever
(example) to CONFIG_PROTECT... Why it couldn't be done?


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 17:34:39 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Stephen Bennett napsal(a):
> > On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200
> > Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >> a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax
> >> changes in config files that could just as well handled completely
> >> automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT.
> > 
> > And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs
> > can and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc.
> 
> Shrug; frankly just a matter of adding $HOME/.paludis/etc or whatever
> (example) to CONFIG_PROTECT... Why it couldn't be done?

Because a) the package manager touching anything in $HOME is extremely
bad form and b) configuration directories are non-enumerable.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Stephen Bennett]

On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:


> a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax
> changes in config files that could just as well handled completely
> automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT.

And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs can
and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Marius Mauch]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:23:53 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > (My) Experience has also shown that gentoo-x86/portage users like
> > the elog features in portage, so stop with those games, they don't
> > get us anywhere.
> 
> They prefer it to not having anything at all. There is plenty of
> reason to believe that they would prefer news to elog in this
> situation were that option available to them.

Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your
default reaction to any opposition. Well, now you've just lost the
last bit of credibility you might have had with me.
EOD for me (you're not listening anyway).

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:44:46 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your
> default reaction to any opposition.

What, providing evidence to the contrary? What more do you want?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Alec Warner]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:44:46 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your
>> default reaction to any opposition.
> 
> What, providing evidence to the contrary? What more do you want?
> 

This is such a hilarious thread; so let me start by half agreeing with
Ciaran here.  The whole point of news items is to only hit affected
users with news.  So in this case it doesn't particularly matter the
number of news items, if there are a 1000 Paludis related news items,
only Paludis users are affected, and they can then complain about having
to read a bunch of items related to Paludis.  This I can agree with.

There is a minor point about item size and quantity and forcing users to
rsync news that isn't relevant to them.  The reality is that those news
items could become relevant in the future; so they must be downloaded
anyway.  I think that keeping news to a minimum is a good thing; but in
this case I'm not going to argue about one news item.

However if Paludis does say, a news item every release, I will begin to
wonder at the number of 'critical compatibility' problems in Paludis,
since I hold most of the Paludis in high regard and I know they can
produce software without critical issues.

Fighting over one news item is I think pointless.  If there is a trend
then there is at least data to back it.  Otherwise you are arguing over
specific bits in a file with a few thousands characters in it.

-Alec
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Matthias Langer]

On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 16:51 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:44:46 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your
> > default reaction to any opposition.
> 
> What, providing evidence to the contrary? What more do you want?
> 

Can we please stop that fruitless discussion. If the maintainers of the
paludis ebuild think that they should release a news item, why not just
let them, if only paludis users will be affected? If we have discussions
like this for every news item, we could just drop them at all.

Matthias

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:44:54 +0200
> Maurice van der Pot <griffon26@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> It looks like it is not clear enough what kind of news should be
>> called critical.
> 
> It's quite simple. If something is of sufficient interest to users who
> would be shown the news item that it is worth them seeing a news item
> then it should be a news item. So, the question is whether people who
> are using Paludis would benefit from or be inconvenienced by this news
> item. We have experience with this from similar changes and news items
> in the Paludis overlay, and from that we know that a news item is
> helpful in this kind of situation.
> 

Ciaran, as I see it the problem is not simply whether this message is
important to paludis users or not - I'm not disputing you're better
positioned to determine that. The problem is the type and amount of news
any single package is willing to provide and the impact that will have
for the whole tree.
You're arguing this news item will only be shown to paludis users, but
you're forgetting that paludis users also use many other packages in the
tree. Assume user X has many packages on his system including package A.
The maintainer of package A decides to create a news item about an
upcoming change that will break package A. If user X on the next update
of the tree gets 25 news items, with 15 of them about config file
changes, the probability of the user disregarding package A's news item
is far greater than if the user only gets 3 or 4 news items, wouldn't
you agree?
IMHO, that's why it's so important to decide on the type of news items
that we should have and that's why maintainers of other packages are so
concerned about this news item. The worst that could happen is that
because of an abuse of the news framework, users stop caring about the
news items - then all work for GLEP 42 would have been for nothing.
I'm not stating that this particular news item is an abuse of the news
framework or will by itself condemn GLEP 42, I'm just explaining why a
careful selection of news items is important and why I care so much
about this particular news item. I also think we should only use news
item for really *important* issues.
There is also another reason to concern about the amount of news items,
the impact that will have on rsync traffic. That is a general concern
and is not tied to this particular example.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Proctors
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 17:08:50 +0000
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> You're arguing this news item will only be shown to paludis users, but
> you're forgetting that paludis users also use many other packages in
> the tree. Assume user X has many packages on his system including
> package A. The maintainer of package A decides to create a news item
> about an upcoming change that will break package A. If user X on the
> next update of the tree gets 25 news items, with 15 of them about
> config file changes, the probability of the user disregarding package
> A's news item is far greater than if the user only gets 3 or 4 news
> items, wouldn't you agree?

You're looking at it the wrong way.

Assume the user gets 25 news items (which is wildly unlikely), 25 of
which contain useful information. Then the user is likely to pay
attention to all the news items. If, however, only 10 of them contain
useful information, they'll likely ignore them all in the future.

So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for
the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:21:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for
> the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes.

No one answered my question asked in Message-ID:
<20070505090630.GA14287@superlupo.rechner> what paludis actually does
in case it encounters a config file using the old syntax so far, but
as long it doesn't break the system, it doesn't need a news item.
GLEP 42 talks about critical, really important news, not just useful
ones.

Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to
get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way
outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
http://forums.gentoo.org   || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums             || #gentoo-proctors (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[expose]

Have there been news items yet, which mentioned changes in config files, which 
did (as far as i understood it) not break the directly next version which is 
upgraded too, but just made a bunch of warnings arise that the config file 
uses the old format which now is deprecated, telling the user to change in in 
this or that way as the next release maybe wont support this deprecated 
format any longer?
I guess it's not only, that users will stop reading news items, but also the 
mailing lists, if discussions on topics as worthwhile reading as this one 
become the defining content of them.

Daniel

P.S.: BTW - do you use KDE or Gnome, and what do you like better? C or Java?
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[expose]

Wernfried Haas wrote:
> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:21:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for
> > the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes.
>
> No one answered my question asked in Message-ID:
> <20070505090630.GA14287@superlupo.rechner> what paludis actually does
> in case it encounters a config file using the old syntax so far, but
> as long it doesn't break the system, it doesn't need a news item.
> GLEP 42 talks about critical, really important news, not just useful
> ones.
>
> Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to
> get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way
> outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP.
>
> cheers,
> 	Wernfried

That's the point.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 19:34:22 +0200
Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:21:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > So the only important question is whether the news items are useful
> > for the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer
> > is yes.
> 
> No one answered my question asked in Message-ID:
> <20070505090630.GA14287@superlupo.rechner> what paludis actually does
> in case it encounters a config file using the old syntax so far, but
> as long it doesn't break the system, it doesn't need a news item.
> GLEP 42 talks about critical, really important news, not just useful
> ones.

It warns noisily. It doesn't say how to fix it.

> Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to
> get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way
> outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP.

Hardly... Not having the news item will cause considerable user
confusion. Having the news item won't cause any users to value news
items less.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On Saturday, May 5, 2007 07:46:47 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> It warns noisily. It doesn't say how to fix it.

paludis@1178391116: [WARNING] In program paludis -ip kdelibs:
  ... When making environment from specification '':
  ... When loading paludis configuration:
  ... When reading licenses file '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf':
  ... When adding source '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf' as a licenses file:
  ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead

Paludis is better than you make it look. ;-)

Best regards, Wulf

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> It warns noisily. 

Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for
a news item.

> It doesn't say how to fix it.

I'm sure that can be arranged even without a news item.

> > Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to
> > get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way
> > outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP.
> 
> Hardly... Not having the news item will cause considerable user
> confusion. 

Then you may need to rewrite the GLEP so it allows news items whenever
something confuses users, not just the critical updates
(e.g. incompatible mysql upgrades or the apache 2 config upgrade were
used as examples) described in the GLEP.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
http://forums.gentoo.org   || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums             || #gentoo-proctors (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:38 +0200
Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > It warns noisily. 
> 
> Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for
> a news item.

You don't use Paludis. Paludis users do see the need for a news item.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 08:29:14PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> You don't use Paludis. 

Irrelevant to the issue at hand. We're discussing the (ab-)use of the
news system, not my personal choice of package manager.

> Paludis users do see the need for a news item.

Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question
if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
http://forums.gentoo.org   || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums             || #gentoo-proctors (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:38 +0200
> Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> It warns noisily. 
>> Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for
>> a news item.
> 
> You don't use Paludis. Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
> 

Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users; we don't need
such stuff abused in gentoo-x86 because paludis users are unable
(according to your claims) read explicit runtime deprecation warnings.

Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here,
may I ask? I guess amne is right here.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200
Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
> 
> Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question
> if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.

GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need
to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users

A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay.

> Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here,
> may I ask? I guess amne is right here.

I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200
> Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
>> Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question
>> if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.
> 
> GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need
> to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here.

OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest? Lets quote
one of the previous mails then:

<snip>
paludis@1178391116: [WARNING] In program paludis -ip kdelibs:
  ... When making environment from specification '':
  ... When loading paludis configuration:
  ... When reading licenses file '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf':
  ... When adding source '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf' as a licenses file:
  ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead
</snip>

You seriously want to claim that paludis users can't read? Again; what
exactly are you after here? (And drop the 'experience has shown', 'users
want it', 'it's non-trivial' etc. etc. rhetoric please - it doesn't go
anywhere nor does it explain anything.)


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> > On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200
> > Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >>> Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
> >> Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the
> >> question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.
> > 
> > GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that
> > need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here.
> 
> OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest?

No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If
you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
>>> On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200
>>> Wernfried Haas <amne@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>>> Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
>>>> Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the
>>>> question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.
>>> GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that
>>> need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here.
>> OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest?
> 
> No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If
> you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one.

Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff. If you want
to improve user experience in other ways, file another GLEP for that,
instead of misusing critical news porting for is. There's nothing
critical about your * stuff.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [PROCTORS] [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:27:41PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest?
> 
> No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If
> you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one.

There may be some small conflict of interest as i actively
participated in this thread before, but i think i am still objective
enough to say that the direction of the last 2 posts is definitely not
the one to take on the gentoo-dev list.

So let's stop with the stupid stuff, thanks.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
http://forums.gentoo.org   || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums             || #gentoo-proctors (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:37:37 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff.

Yes, it is about proper usage of GLEP 42. This news item is one example
of that.

> There's nothing critical about your * stuff.

Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an
appropriate manner, the users get annoyed.

You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording
technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering
what is best for affected users?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[expose]

Am Samstag 05 Mai 2007 22:44 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:37:37 +0200
>
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff.
>
> Yes, it is about proper usage of GLEP 42. This news item is one example
> of that.
>
> > There's nothing critical about your * stuff.
>
> Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an
> appropriate manner, the users get annoyed.
>
> You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording
> technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering
> what is best for affected users?

A may be his evidence, as I am a user, and do not thing it is worth a news 
item.
It wont block paludis from working and
if you change it, so that it does you
have caused the problem yourself because
config file changes should not be abrupt, but
it is good to have a "buffer" version which
sends warnings to the user if
he didnt fix his config.

I bet there are other users around, who think a config file format change that 
doesnt break anything but produce warnings in the first place is 
non-critical.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users
> 
> A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay.
> 
>> Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here,
>> may I ask? I guess amne is right here.
> 
> I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users.
> 
Hah! There's an easier way than paludis then, lol
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
>> There's nothing critical about your * stuff.
> 
> Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an
> appropriate manner, the users get annoyed.
> 
> You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording
> technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering
> what is best for affected users?

I'm not trying to sabotage anything but total misuse of the feature.
Would have the same objections wrt whatever other "critical" news that'd
constitute completely inappropriate usage of GLEP42 features. (And I'd
expect that you'd show a bit more knowledge of the GLEP you are a
co-author of, frankly.)

The relevant paludis output has been pasted twice already, so let me try
one last time:

<snip>
  ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead
</snip>

How much more explanation about this 'critical' change do the users
*need*? If they don't get the above, maybe paludis and Linux just isn't
for them and they should stick to Windows. Meanwhile there's no need to
establish a precedent of using critical news for PEBKAC issues.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[expose]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:37:37 +0200
>
> Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff.
>
> Yes, it is about proper usage of GLEP 42. This news item is one example
> of that.
>
> > There's nothing critical about your * stuff.
>
> Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an
> appropriate manner, the users get annoyed.
>
> You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording
> technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering
> what is best for affected users? 

By the way on 03.03.2007 15:14 Ciaran McCreesh also wrote:
> No, it's that you're dead set on derailing it and being as unhelpful as
> possible. You have absolutely nothing to contribute, as evidenced by
> every previous time you've gotten involved with anything I've done, and
> given how badly you tried to screw up GLEP 42 and how much of my time
> you wasted doing so, I really don't want to deal with your noise ever
> again. You also have a lot to gain by wrecking the process, and your
> past behaviour has shown that you'll stoop to any kind of dirty
> trickery and abuse of the system that you think you can get away with
> rather than having a proper technical discussion.

For your interest, I do not consider it as a "proper technical discussion" if 
someone asks for evidence without delivering it himself instead of writing 
one third of the discussion to
> make lots of noise about it
(again a quoted from Ciaran McCreesh, written by him on 11.02.2007 18:40)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [PROCTORS] [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:54:08PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200
> >Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >>Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users
> >A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay.
> >>Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here,
> >>may I ask? I guess amne is right here.
> >I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users.
> Hah! There's an easier way than paludis then, lol

Another subthread that should rather go extinct than continue in this
direction. Just because people disagree there's no need to make it
personal.

Thanks,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
http://forums.gentoo.org   || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums             || #gentoo-proctors (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:56:58 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I'm not trying to sabotage anything but total misuse of the feature.
> Would have the same objections wrt whatever other "critical" news
> that'd constitute completely inappropriate usage of GLEP42 features.
> (And I'd expect that you'd show a bit more knowledge of the GLEP you
> are a co-author of, frankly.)

Have you stopped to consider that, as author of the GLEP, I know
exactly what it was intended to do and how it works?

It's a change to a core configuration file requiring explicit user
action from every user. It is not merely a notice about a new feature
or a behaviour change that only affects a small proportion of users.
The former gets a news item, the latter gets an elog.

> The relevant paludis output has been pasted twice already, so let me
> try one last time:
> 
> <snip>
>   ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead
> </snip>
> 
> How much more explanation about this 'critical' change do the users
> *need*? If they don't get the above, maybe paludis and Linux just
> isn't for them and they should stick to Windows. Meanwhile there's no
> need to establish a precedent of using critical news for PEBKAC
> issues.

Experience has shown that without a news item, many users will ask for
clarification or confirmation before making any changes, and with a
news item users will be reassured that they're doing the right thing
and that this is a deliberate change. Bear in mind that a large
proportion of users didn't create those files by hand and haven't
edited them themselves.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[»Q«]

In <news:200705052250.26106.expose@luftgetrock.net>,
expose@luftgetrock.net wrote:

> I bet there are other users around, who think a config file format
> change that doesnt break anything but produce warnings in the first
> place is non-critical.

I'm another one.  I guess someone needs to decide whether the criterion
is 'critical' or 'important';  there seems to be confusion about the
intent and wording of GLEP 42.

-- 
»Q«

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Maurice van der Pot]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:44:35PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > There's nothing critical about your * stuff.
> 
> Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an
> appropriate manner, the users get annoyed.

There's a lot of subjectivity in this sentence... "appropriate"...
"annoyed"... but none of it is relevant to whether or not it is
critical. 

Critical is about breakage that causes a lot more work in fixing than it
would have in preventing and that the user will not know about until it
is too late.

> You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording
> technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering
> what is best for affected users?

Any evidence of this kind is irrelevant. We're not going to tie GLEP 42
in with paypal to give users money either, which would also be pretty
good for users. It's *critical* news reporting, not slashdot.

Maurice.

-- 
Maurice van der Pot

Gentoo Linux Developer   griffon26@gentoo.org     http://www.gentoo.org
Creator of BiteMe!       griffon26@kfk4ever.com   http://www.kfk4ever.com


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:10:39 -0500
»Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:
> In <news:200705052250.26106.expose@luftgetrock.net>,
> expose@luftgetrock.net wrote:
> > I bet there are other users around, who think a config file format
> > change that doesnt break anything but produce warnings in the first
> > place is non-critical.
> 
> I'm another one.  I guess someone needs to decide whether the
> criterion is 'critical' or 'important';  there seems to be confusion
> about the intent and wording of GLEP 42.

Are you a Paludis user who thinks that and who knows what news item
delivery looks like? If you aren't, you won't see the news item.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Maurice van der Pot]

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On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 10:26:50PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Are you a Paludis user who thinks that 

Irrelevant, people can think beyond just paludis.

> and who knows what news item delivery looks like? 

Irrelevant, what it looks like has nothing to do with whether or not it
is critical.

Maurice.

-- 
Maurice van der Pot

Gentoo Linux Developer   griffon26@gentoo.org     http://www.gentoo.org
Creator of BiteMe!       griffon26@kfk4ever.com   http://www.kfk4ever.com


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[PROCTORS] Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Piotr Jaroszy?ski wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck 
> they are ready to use. And we should use them!
> 
> Attaching news item for paludis 0.24.
> Justification: major config format change.
> 
> 

I would like to ask everyone discussing glep42 and the type of news
items, to redirect any further emails to the new thread Mike Doty
(kingtaco) has now started - msgid = <463CF698.6090904@gentoo.org> /
http://article.gname.org/gname.linux.gentoo.devel/48809 . The discussion
on this thread should no focus exclusively on the correctness of the
proposed news item.
I would also like to ask everyone to continue the discussion in the
mailing list in a civil tone.
Thanks.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Proctors
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 703 bytes --]

On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:48:31 +0200
Maurice van der Pot <griffon26@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 10:26:50PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Are you a Paludis user who thinks that 
> 
> Irrelevant, people can think beyond just paludis.

We're discussing a news item that will only be shown to Paludis users.
It is the opinion of those users that is relevant here.

> > and who knows what news item delivery looks like? 
> 
> Irrelevant, what it looks like has nothing to do with whether or not
> it is critical.

No no, it matters. The degree to which an unnecessary news item would
inconvenience the end user is relevant in making the decision.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [PROCTORS] Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Piotr Jaroszy?ski wrote:
>> Hello,
> 
>> Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck 
>> they are ready to use. And we should use them!
> 
>> Attaching news item for paludis 0.24.
>> Justification: major config format change.
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to ask everyone discussing glep42 and the type of news
> items, to redirect any further emails to the new thread Mike Doty
> (kingtaco) has now started - msgid = <463CF698.6090904@gentoo.org> /
> http://article.gname.org/gname.linux.gentoo.devel/48809 . The discussion
> on this thread should no focus exclusively on the correctness of the
> proposed news item.
> I would also like to ask everyone to continue the discussion in the
> mailing list in a civil tone.
> Thanks.
> 

Sorry, the correct gmane link is
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/48809


- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo -forums / Userrel / Proctors
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

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Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:48:31 +0200
> Maurice van der Pot <griffon26@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 10:26:50PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> and who knows what news item delivery looks like? 
>> Irrelevant, what it looks like has nothing to do with whether or not
>> it is critical.
> 
> No no, it matters. The degree to which an unnecessary news item would
> inconvenience the end user is relevant in making the decision.

Eh, something being inconvenient doesn't make the thing any more or less
critical, so yeah, it's entirely irrelevant.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sun, 06 May 2007 00:09:37 +0200
Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> > On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:48:31 +0200
> > Maurice van der Pot <griffon26@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 10:26:50PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >>> and who knows what news item delivery looks like? 
> >> Irrelevant, what it looks like has nothing to do with whether or
> >> not it is critical.
> > 
> > No no, it matters. The degree to which an unnecessary news item
> > would inconvenience the end user is relevant in making the decision.
> 
> Eh, something being inconvenient doesn't make the thing any more or
> less critical, so yeah, it's entirely irrelevant.

No, but it affects the impact upon user experience, which is the entire
point of the process. This is, after all, about delivering what's best
for affected users.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[»Q«]

In <news:20070505222650.73f739e4@snowflake>,
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:10:39 -0500
> »Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:
> > In <news:200705052250.26106.expose@luftgetrock.net>,
> > expose@luftgetrock.net wrote:
> > > I bet there are other users around, who think a config file format
> > > change that doesnt break anything but produce warnings in the
> > > first place is non-critical.
> > 
> > I'm another one.  I guess someone needs to decide whether the
> > criterion is 'critical' or 'important';  there seems to be confusion
> > about the intent and wording of GLEP 42.
> 
> Are you a Paludis user who thinks that and who knows what news item
> delivery looks like? 

Nope, just a user who supports the idea of critical news items being
added to the portage tree but not 'important' ones.  I don't want to
have to download the 'important' ones.

> If you aren't, you won't see the news item.

I saw it when it was posted here.  It seems important but not
critical.  If I've misunderstood, and news items won't be downloaded by
non-Paludis users when they sync, then I'd agree that 'important', as
determined by the package maintainer(s), is a fine threshold for
including them.  

-- 
»Q«

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[expose]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> No, but it affects the impact upon user experience, which is the entire
> point of the process. This is, after all, about delivering what's best
> for affected users.
No it is not.
It is about wether or not this news item would fit into the current set of 
rules, which it would not.
If you do not like the fact that news items are for critical issues only, use 
something else, or kindly ask for a change for the GLEP.

As in the long run, violating self-set rules will for sure not be beneficial 
for the "user experience".
There is not reason to start doing so now because of a news item you 
requested.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Alec Warner]

I picked a random mail to reply to:

The paludis news item has been approved by me, cause I rock, and
commited to the proper location.  Assuming the code Zac wrote was
actually tested and is turned on, the news item will hit the tree soon.

Good Day Sirs.

-Alec
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 950 bytes --]

On Sun, 6 May 2007 00:30:28 +0200
expose@luftgetrock.net wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > No, but it affects the impact upon user experience, which is the
> > entire point of the process. This is, after all, about delivering
> > what's best for affected users.
> No it is not.
> It is about wether or not this news item would fit into the current
> set of rules, which it would not.

So you're saying that you're attempting to use wording technicalities
to prevent an improvement to the user experience?

> As in the long run, violating self-set rules will for sure not be
> beneficial for the "user experience".

The whole point of GLEP 42 is to improve the user experience. The whole
point of the word 'critical' is to avoid having GLEP 42 used for items
that are not relevant to most targetted users -- that is, messages like
"There is a new foo USE flag that enables the fancy new foo behaviour".

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:27:45 -0500
»Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:
> > If you aren't, you won't see the news item.
> 
> I saw it when it was posted here.

Because the GLEP 42 process, quite rightly, requires that news items be
posted to -dev for review before they're committed.

> It seems important but not critical.  If I've misunderstood, and news
> items won't be downloaded by non-Paludis users when they sync, then
> I'd agree that 'important', as determined by the package
> maintainer(s), is a fine threshold for including them.  

It's 'downloaded' in the same way that einfo messages in the tree for
ebuilds that you don't use are downloaded. It is not displayed to the
end user unless they are affected.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Christian Hartmann]

> The paludis news item has been approved by me, cause I rock, and
> commited to the proper location.

Council?

-- 
Christian Hartmann
http://www.gentoo.org/~ian/

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
Key fingerprint = 4544 EC0C BAE4 216F 5981  7F95 2154 E5EE 692A 4865

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 601 bytes --]

Christian Hartmann napsal(a):
>> The paludis news item has been approved by me, cause I rock, and
>> commited to the proper location.
> 
> Council?

+1

This should be put on hold until there's some consent and guidelines on
how this is supposed to be used. The current 100+ emails threads clearly
suggests it's not the case ATM.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Fernando J. Pereda]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 775 bytes --]

On Sun, May 06, 2007 at 01:10:48AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Christian Hartmann napsal(a):
> >> The paludis news item has been approved by me, cause I rock, and
> >> commited to the proper location.
> > 
> > Council?
> 
> +1
> 
> This should be put on hold until there's some consent and guidelines on
> how this is supposed to be used. The current 100+ emails threads clearly
> suggests it's not the case ATM.

The interesting number is 23... only 23 different people commented on
the whole thread, and some of them even agree with the news item. So the
situation is not that bad, lets rephrase that as:

"There is still some people that don't like it."

- ferdy

-- 
Fernando J. Pereda Garcimartín
20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Daniel Drake]

I've tried to divide up the various things being discussed here.


Regarding paludis:

  - The syntax change in question affects >=paludis-0.24
  - The old syntax is still accepted
  - A warning message is printed to the console by paludis when
    the old (deprecated) syntax is detected
  - The warning message includes basic instructions on how to fix the
    deprecated syntax.
  - The user isn't affected by the change in any other way
  - The syntax can't be fixed automatically

Is the above correct?



Regarding the GLEP:

There's reasonable doubt whether the news item can be classified as 
"critical news", and also whether it satisfies this sentence from the GLEP:

	News items must only be for important changes that may cause
	serious upgrade or compatibility problems.

However, Ciaran (the primary GLEP author) tells us that the GLEP was 
written with the mindset to allow these kinds of news items, i.e. some 
of us are misinterpreting the text.

Specifically, the news is useful/beneficial/interesting to all or almost 
all paludis users so it should be put in place regardless of importance:

	It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will
	read the news item that a news item is warranted.

I can understand that the system may have been dreamed up with this in 
mind, and this certainly isn't an unreasonable design, but I don't see 
the corresponding text in the GLEP.

Mike already suggested that we set some news standards. I think we 
should go further: after discussion if we do decide this kind of article 
is valid news, then we should carefully reword some parts of the GLEP 
and maybe even rename it. Adding a few examples of valid and invalid 
items (plus explanations why) would be beneficial as well.



Regarding elog:

Some people have suggested that elog is a suitable way of providing the 
syntax change information here. The main argument against this is that 
the Portage implementation isn't good enough (or perhaps isn't good 
enough by default, or perhaps isn't good enough in the released versions).

If we can agree that the concept of elog satisfies the requirements 
here, then we should be focusing on fixing that rather than arguing 
about a different news system which isn't even implemented in the latest 
released version of Portage, right? Portage's news implementation might 
even be worse than the elog implementation...



Regarding the committed news item:

I spoke to Alec on IRC. Even after doing so, I don't really understand 
why he committed this, but it sounds like he wanted to stir things up. 
He doesn't acknowledge that he had any particular power to make the 
decision in this situation. He is surprised that nobody approached him 
before complaining to the council (not that any complaints have been 
filed in any official sense to my knowledge).

He was already aware that he violated the GLEP, which requires at least 
72 hours before the news item gets committed.

I think someone should revert this commit until discussion has settled 
and the GLEP wording has been refined.



Corrections appreciated.
Daniel
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[expose]

Daniel Drake wrote:
> Is the above correct?
AFAIK, yes.


Daniel Drake wrote:
> I can understand that the system may have been dreamed up with this in
> mind, and this certainly isn't an unreasonable design, but I don't see
> the corresponding text in the GLEP.
Which does not seem to be a problem to Ciaran McCreesh as he stated
> So you're saying that you're attempting to use wording technicalities
> to prevent an improvement to the user experience?
(earlier this day, 00:38:39)


> Mike already suggested that we set some news standards. I think we
> should go further: after discussion if we do decide this kind of article
> is valid news, then we should carefully reword some parts of the GLEP
> and maybe even rename it. Adding a few examples of valid and invalid
> items (plus explanations why) would be beneficial as well.
Different forms of spreading news may never overlap, as this would cause 
arguments for no reason.
For problems which are as easy to fix as this one, we got other ways of spread 
the news already.
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