Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo

Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo

[Petteri Räty]

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Ivan Sakhalin kirjoitti:
>        - Reduce the rules so that things can be done without a week of
> discussion for every small idea

I have yet to see people refuse written code that has no technical
problems so instead of talking about how to implement stuff, go out
there and write it instead.

>
>        - how many retire because of political reasons?
>

Not that many I think. There was a time when a couple of people seemed
to leave because of "political" reasons.

>        - how many are recruited?

I have been doing most recruits lately. There has always been a steady
flow of good people wanting to become devs so that is not a problem. The
biggest problem is having enough people interested in guiding new people
and making sure they have good enough skills.

> 
>     It is here that I must interject with another problem - some groups
> complain
> that they are understaffed, but reject candidates just because; some groups
> obviously can't manage on their own but deceive themselves into believing
> they are doing fine and refuse any help. Some groups are not doing what
> their
> group should be and attack people that try to do what they refuse to do.

Any examples here?

Regards,
Petteri


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OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Michael Sullivan]

> I have been doing most recruits lately. There has always been a steady
> flow of good people wanting to become devs so that is not a problem. The
> biggest problem is having enough people interested in guiding new people
> and making sure they have good enough skills.

I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I have
some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an Associates
of Computer Science from a small community college, and I've never had a
job working for a software company.  You spode of "good enough skills";
I don't think I have good enough skills to help with Gentoo, but I'd
like to.  Where should I start?

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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:52:04 -0600 Michael Sullivan
<michael@espersunited.com> wrote:
| > I have been doing most recruits lately. There has always been a
| > steady flow of good people wanting to become devs so that is not a
| > problem. The biggest problem is having enough people interested in
| > guiding new people and making sure they have good enough skills.
| 
| I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I
| have some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an
| Associates of Computer Science from a small community college, and
| I've never had a job working for a software company.  You spode of
| "good enough skills"; I don't think I have good enough skills to help
| with Gentoo, but I'd like to.  Where should I start?

https://bugs.gentoo.org/

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail                                : ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web                                 : http://ciaranm.org/
Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/


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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Michael Sullivan]

On Sun, 2007-01-07 at 22:56 +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:52:04 -0600 Michael Sullivan
> <michael@espersunited.com> wrote:
> | > I have been doing most recruits lately. There has always been a
> | > steady flow of good people wanting to become devs so that is not a
> | > problem. The biggest problem is having enough people interested in
> | > guiding new people and making sure they have good enough skills.
> | 
> | I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I
> | have some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an
> | Associates of Computer Science from a small community college, and
> | I've never had a job working for a software company.  You spode of
> | "good enough skills"; I don't think I have good enough skills to help
> | with Gentoo, but I'd like to.  Where should I start?
> 
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/
> 

I mean where do I start improving my skills?  I've looked at source code
from Gentoo packages that was written in C (I know the basics of C) and
it made no sense to me.  I found the experience quite overwhelming.  Is
there a place I can start training myself to work on big projects?

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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Luca Barbato]

Michael Sullivan wrote:

> 
> I mean where do I start improving my skills?  I've looked at source code
> from Gentoo packages that was written in C (I know the basics of C) and
> it made no sense to me.  I found the experience quite overwhelming.  Is
> there a place I can start training myself to work on big projects?

usually just read the $big_project ml, hang with $big_project dev and 
read the documentation if present. It is quite easy catching up =)

lu


-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Alec Warner]

Michael Sullivan wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-01-07 at 22:56 +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:52:04 -0600 Michael Sullivan
>> <michael@espersunited.com> wrote:
>> | > I have been doing most recruits lately. There has always been a
>> | > steady flow of good people wanting to become devs so that is not a
>> | > problem. The biggest problem is having enough people interested in
>> | > guiding new people and making sure they have good enough skills.
>> | 
>> | I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I
>> | have some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an
>> | Associates of Computer Science from a small community college, and
>> | I've never had a job working for a software company.  You spode of
>> | "good enough skills"; I don't think I have good enough skills to help
>> | with Gentoo, but I'd like to.  Where should I start?
>>
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/
>>
> 
> I mean where do I start improving my skills?  I've looked at source code
> from Gentoo packages that was written in C (I know the basics of C) and
> it made no sense to me.  I found the experience quite overwhelming.  Is
> there a place I can start training myself to work on big projects?
> 

It once again depends on what you want to do.  If you want to write
docs, you probably need to learn GuideXML.

If you want to fix broken ebuilds you will need to know bash pretty well.

If you want to work on portage (trust me you don't, but IF you did)
you'd want to know python fairly well.

If you want to work on a specific set of applications, you will need to
know about those applications.  kde, pam, bsd, multimedia apps,
etc...;each section has it's own set of moreys and 'how most
applications work'.

In general you need to know about Linux, how it works in a broad sense,
and how to use it.  You can learn some of the specifics along the way;

Myself?  I'm an annoying portage guy, but I also fix broken packages and
occasionally participate in QA fixes and revbumps for things that aren't
maintained by anyone else.  I know some bash (not as much as I'd like)
and I know C++ and python.  I am not a guru of anything (not even
portage) but I try and help out where I feel I can contribute meaningfully.
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[gentoo-dev] Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Michael Sullivan <michael@espersunited.com>:

> I mean where do I start improving my skills?  I've looked at source
> code from Gentoo packages that was written in C (I know the basics of
> C) and it made no sense to me.  I found the experience quite
> overwhelming.  Is there a place I can start training myself to work
> on big projects?

 My programming skills are somewhat crippled, but I know about the
principles, I know how to read source code and change minor things.
You need to know Linux and tools like sed, diff, patch and friends.  I
started as an arch tester for x86 and learned a lot about how Gentoo
works that way, then began contributing to Project Sunrise which
improved my ebuild skills (at least brought it to a decent level).
Reading devmanual added some more knowledge and also the quizzes are
helpful.

V-Li

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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Petteri Räty]

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Michael Sullivan kirjoitti:
>> I have been doing most recruits lately. There has always been a steady
>> flow of good people wanting to become devs so that is not a problem. The
>> biggest problem is having enough people interested in guiding new people
>> and making sure they have good enough skills.
> 
> I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I have
> some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an Associates
> of Computer Science from a small community college, and I've never had a
> job working for a software company.  You spode of "good enough skills";
> I don't think I have good enough skills to help with Gentoo, but I'd
> like to.  Where should I start?
> 

The problem is that we get a lot of mails like this. Gentoo does not
work like a school were someone educates you from the start. The way the
process works is that we pick up people who have been doing good work
for a while and ask them take the quizzes. Probably the best material
for learning is http://devmanual.gentoo.org. For looking things to do
look into http://bugs.gentoo.org and probably #gentoo-bugs on bugdays.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Seemant Kulleen]

> I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I have
> some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an Associates
> of Computer Science from a small community college, and I've never had a
> job working for a software company.  You spode of "good enough skills";
> I don't think I have good enough skills to help with Gentoo, but I'd
> like to.  Where should I start?


You know this question comes up a lot.  The answer hasn't changed much
over the years, and you may not like it, but it's the honest to goodness
best way to start helping: just start helping.  There are numerous
avenues to do so, and in no particular order they are:

1. gentoo-user mailing list
2. the gentoo forums
3. join an irc channel or two (#gentoo has a steady stream of traffic of
people who need help)
4. figure out what you're good at and/or what you want to learn and hop
on over to bugzilla and find bugs in those areas.

The caveat to the bugzilla one is this: most people who want to help go
straight to maintainer-wanted bugs or try and create ebuilds for new
packages.  To be perfectly honest, those areas are not *where* gentoo
needs help. We need help to maintain stuff already in the tree, so start
at maintainer-needed or drill into some specific teams (gnome, pam,
kerberos, kde, bsd, samba, mail, web-apps, there's a list of herds
somewhere).

Spread the word!

Thanks,
-- 
Seemant Kulleen
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: OT - "Good skills" (WAS: Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo)

[Daniel Drake]

Michael Sullivan wrote:
> I would like to help with coding/debugging packages for Gentoo.  I have
> some programming experience on a very small scale.  I have an Associates
> of Computer Science from a small community college, and I've never had a
> job working for a software company.  You spode of "good enough skills";
> I don't think I have good enough skills to help with Gentoo, but I'd
> like to.  Where should I start?
> 

Just to expand on everything that has already been said, here is my input.

It sounds like you don't have any specific area of interest in mind, but 
you are keen on the principles and want to contribute to the community.

So, the first thing you need to do is pick something moderately specific 
to get involved in, since packages are divided by category and roles are 
divided by projects, etc. The choice is fairly arbitrary but go for one 
that you have some kind of knowledge and interest in. For example, if 
you once did a college project evaluating different kinds of encryption, 
you might choose to get involved with the crypto packages. If you have 
some kind of uncommon hardware which needs its own out-of-kernel driver, 
firmware, or userspace utility then look into packages in that area. If 
you have a large music collection and spend a lot of time keeping it 
organised, pick the media-sound package group.

And realistically your initial choice might not hold for very long, but 
that's fine. As long as you pick an area to start in, and you see it 
through the recruitment process, then you'll have found some footing and 
can move around and branch out later. At the moment I spend a lot of 
time maintaining and fixing the kernel in Gentoo. I was not even doing 
anything comparable to this when I originally became a developer. I am 
currently also involved upstream developing drivers and fixing bugs in 
the mainline kernel sources, and I certainly didn't have any knowledge 
of how to go about this when I originally joined Gentoo development.

At some point you'll start finding some bugs which you can diagnose if 
not solve fully (diagnosis is often harder than fixing up the code). Or 
you'll find a personal itch that you are capable of scratching, so 
you'll be motivated to get involved in a very specific project (and you 
won't have the "what can I do" problem you have now).

If this makes any sense to you, send me a list of software or areas that 
you might be interested in offlist, and I'll look into getting you in 
contact with appropriate people.

Daniel
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo

[Bryan Østergaard]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2007 at 10:14:26PM +0100, Ivan Sakhalin wrote:
> Dear friends and fellow Gentooists,
> 
<snip lots of text>
>
> 	While the politics around these cases make rational discussion quite 
> 	difficult
> 	it is obvious even to outsiders that this is not in the spirit of the
> original Gentoo Metadistribution - it even violates many of those so-called
> rules that were created to help the interaction between people from wildly
> divergent backgrounds.
> 	Devrel, as it stands, has always been controversial as everyone saw a
> different use for the rather unneeded concentration of power in the hands of
> a few people. But when people are denied an appeal and devrel unilaterally
> decides, ignoring policies and common sense, what is one supposed to think?
>
Developer Relations haven't denied any appeals at all. You'll have to
back this statement up with facts if you want to change any developers
mind about this I'm afraid.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo

[Simon Stelling]

Hi,

Ivan Sakhalin wrote:
>     Now, our memories of the past are not always as thruthful as we 
> would like
> them to be, selective memory is what makes some large things small and some
> small things large. So let us not idealize the past as if it had no 
> problems,
> but let us try to keep a perspective on how things have changed, evolved
> maybe, into what they are now and what they may become.

Let us also not forget that a very vocal minority doesn't make a majority.

>     Many good people, having all attained the rank of full developer, have
> retired, with a noticeable increase in the last trimester or so. Some have
> retired to avoid all the political tomfoolery that kept them from enjoying
> their work, some left as they found something else to fill that special 
> place
> in their heart. Some, sadly, did not feel they could contribute enough as
> real life took its toll - may they find some time in the future. And a very
> selected few, regrettably, were retired against their will.

Depends on your point of view. Some of these "regrettable" cases weren't 
that regrettable to me.

>     These removals even went outside the ranks of developers - the hostile
> takeover of some IRC channels has caused unneeded tension between groups 
> that
> should cooperate. It is a sad day when the appearance of a gentoo developer
> may be the first sign that your channel will now be censored and people
> removed that have dissenting opinions.

I don't know what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?

> a few people. But when people are denied an appeal and devrel unilaterally
> decides, ignoring policies and common sense, what is one supposed to think?

Same here.

> Everything that is not official (for certain undefined values of official -
> objectivity seems to be lost on many humans) is attacked, torn apart and

By the very vocal minority. Be reminded that the large majority of the 
devs doesn't give a damn, to be clear.

> insulted. A great example of that is the Sunrise Overlay, which has become
> quite a success, with a few of the community members becoming devs - at the
> same time I see with sadness that at least one dev has retired because of
> Sunrise. What madness there is when people leave such a great project 
> because

One. It was his own choice, so I don't think that incident is too dramatic.

>     I ask you not to redo the errors of the past and remember the lessons
> learned - there is so much that needs to be done, but no single person has
> the strength to do them. Cooperate you must, my friends. Only when you 
> leave
> the infighting and bureaucracy behind can you aspire to true greatness.

You're not the first one to figure this out. It looks quite simple, and 
everybody will agree with your statement above, because it is not 
practical at all. As soon as you get into implementation of above 
wisdom, things get complicated. So, if you seriously want to help 
Gentoo, do it in a concrete manner.

>        - Reduce the rules so that things can be done without a week of
> discussion for every small idea

This is a very interesting idea. Do you genuinely think that less rules 
will result in less discussion? Quite the contrary, my friend. If there 
is no rule for an action, there will be a discussion whether said action 
was good or not.

We don't need more or less rules, we need better rules.

>        - how can the environment be improved so that people can enjoy their
> work and not care about silly problems?

Shut up the people that cause silly problems. We've done it before, it 
works.

> So, with that being said, I hope that things change for the better.

I doubt so, to be honest.

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Developer
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