[gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[Enrico Weigelt]

Hi folks,

I've noticed, axis has some commercial/non-free dependencies, ie. 
sun-javamail-bin and sun-jaf. Are there free replacements for them ?


cu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[Vlastimil Babka]

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Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I've noticed, axis has some commercial/non-free dependencies, ie. 
> sun-javamail-bin and sun-jaf. Are there free replacements for them ?
> 

Yes, sun-javamail and sun-jaf are free (CDDL-licensed) replacements.
They were recently stabilized and should soon replace the -bin packages
in dependencies.
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Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Vlastimil Babka <caster@gentoo.org> schrieb:

> Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > I've noticed, axis has some commercial/non-free dependencies, ie. 
> > sun-javamail-bin and sun-jaf. Are there free replacements for them ?
> > 
> 
> Yes, sun-javamail and sun-jaf are free (CDDL-licensed) replacements.
> They were recently stabilized and should soon replace the -bin packages
> in dependencies.

Great :)
It was really, really ugly getting tomcat emerge'd w/ all this 
commercial crap :(

I had some talks w/ tomcat folks - they were some bit confused 
about the huge dependencies @gentoo and suggested using some
of their (monolithic) packages instead.

Could anyone explain where all these dependencies come from ?
Are there perhaps some build conditionals which are not yet
reflected in useflags ?


thx
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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Sat, 2006-12-23 at 20:20 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> 
> Great :)
> It was really, really ugly getting tomcat emerge'd w/ all this 
> commercial crap :(

Blame upstream for using them. Granted the are somewhat optional more on
that below.

> I had some talks w/ tomcat folks

Where? Who? Just curious. There are ant download targets for most of the
deps, we just bypass. So it's not like the deps come from no where in a
normal build from source.

>  - they were some bit confused 
> about the huge dependencies @gentoo and suggested using some
> of their (monolithic) packages instead.

I have tried to slim it down, but dropping certain deps to seem to
change things that are activated or not within Tomcat. For example there
seems to be some issues with the java5 USE flag. Either that, or some of
the dropped deps when that flag is used is effecting the resulting
catalina.jar. Who knows what other jars would be effected by dropping
other deps.

> Could anyone explain where all these dependencies come from ?

Tomcat <=5.5.x has a ton of deps. There are these wonderful deps
referred to in build.properties.default as Core Optional Libraries.
I hate who ever decided to word it that way or call it that ;)
I have tired to research if they are needed, what they do etc. If they
effect the ending result.

Example core optional libraries. Log4j? What's up with that Tomcat 5.5.x
uses JULI by default. So that one alone I have yet to figure out why
it's needed or should be around.

Now consider this for a moment. Upstream is likely using binaries to
build their binary version of Tomcat ;) So it's not like they are
compiling all the stuff they are using to build Tomcat from source.
Before they compile and ship Tomcat. We do it all from source. :) Which
can explain extended deps right there.

> Are there perhaps some build conditionals which are not yet
> reflected in useflags ?

I highly doubt it and with all the variables, you would likely break
something and not know it. Till someone uses that feature or aspect and
etc. Most are expecting the compiled from source on Gentoo version to be
equivalent to the binary version, out of the box.

The only thing I can say about the whole situation is they are working
on releasing Tomcat 6.0.x in the next month or two. Tomcat 6.0.x has way
less deps, and it's much clearer that the ones it has are needed. No
core optional, or optional stuff. I might see about unmasking and
versioning either alpha/beta the ebuild despite sources not being
tagged :( So people can test it out and hopefully help get it released
ASAP.

As for 5.5.x, it's not clear if there will be further releases from
upstream. It's got lots of legacy code and likely deps.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
Gentoo/Java

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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[Jakub Moc]

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William L. Thomson Jr. napsal(a):
> On Sat, 2006-12-23 at 20:20 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
>> I had some talks w/ tomcat folks
> 
> Where? Who? Just curious. 

There, you'll love it :P

http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=users%40tomcat.apache.org&q=tomcat+commercial+crap


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 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[Vlastimil Babka]

Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Could anyone explain where all these dependencies come from ?
> Are there perhaps some build conditionals which are not yet
> reflected in useflags ?
>   
Use emerge -t option to see where things come from. I think axis came 
from mx4j which was recently split to two ebuilds mx4j-core and 
mx4j-tools and the deps are only for -tools which is now only optional 
and not needed for tomcat. It's in the ~arch revision yet.

Also, I've read the thread you made on tomcat maillist. Really thanks 
for making us such PR with your cluelessness.

> Seems the related ebuilds are totally broken. the gentoo devs of 
> course claim evrytings perfect ;-o

Care to elaborate and give evidence? For both first and second part of 
this statement?

Vlastimil Babka
 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 09:53 +0100, Jakub Moc wrote:
> William L. Thomson Jr. napsal(a):
> > On Sat, 2006-12-23 at 20:20 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> >> I had some talks w/ tomcat folks
> > 
> > Where? Who? Just curious. 
> 
> There, you'll love it :P
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=users%40tomcat.apache.org&q=tomcat+commercial+crap

Thanks for the link, but that one makes it hard to follow order of
posts.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&w=2&r=1&s=commercial&q=b

Just love when people take issues to upstream without even stopping by
or asking in the proper places. I must have not stated that clear enough
in the Tomcat Guide.

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/java/tomcat-guide.xml

Maybe instead of it being the last section, I should put it up top or
something?

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
Gentoo/Java

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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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For those that just can't get enough around the holidays.

On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 10:11 -0500, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 09:53 +0100, Jakub Moc wrote:
> > William L. Thomson Jr. napsal(a):
> > > On Sat, 2006-12-23 at 20:20 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> > >> I had some talks w/ tomcat folks
> > > 
> > > Where? Who? Just curious. 
> > 
> > There, you'll love it :P
> > 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=users%40tomcat.apache.org&q=tomcat+commercial+crap
> 
> Thanks for the link, but that one makes it hard to follow order of
> posts.
> 
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&w=2&r=1&s=commercial&q=b
> 

My reply to the list, to hopefully explain and clean up this mess.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&m=116697268216539&w=2

Yes, I know I should become a bagpipe player with lungs like these :)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
Gentoo/Java

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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[Enrico Weigelt]

* William L. Thomson Jr. <wltjr@gentoo.org> schrieb:

Hi,

> > Great :)
> > It was really, really ugly getting tomcat emerge'd w/ all this 
> > commercial crap :(
> 
> Blame upstream for using them. Granted the are somewhat optional 
> more on that below.

Well, they told me, I won't need them ... who the hell's right ?

> > I had some talks w/ tomcat folks
> 
> Where? Who? Just curious.

users@tomcat.apache.org

> There are ant download targets for most of the deps, we just 
> bypass. So it's not like the deps come from no where in a normal 
> build from source.

In other words: tomcat ships lots of bundled third-party packages,
while gentoo takes them from the upstream ?

But then I wonder: if the tomcat folks can simply bundle them in,
why does gentoo has to suffer from these download restrictions ?

> >  - they were some bit confused 
> > about the huge dependencies @gentoo and suggested using some
> > of their (monolithic) packages instead.
> 
> I have tried to slim it down, but dropping certain deps to seem to
> change things that are activated or not within Tomcat. For example 
> there seems to be some issues with the java5 USE flag. Either that, 
> or some of the dropped deps when that flag is used is effecting the 
> resulting catalina.jar. Who knows what other jars would be effected 
> by dropping other deps.

hmm, we should do some deeper investigations @ dev@tomcat ...

<snip>

> Now consider this for a moment. Upstream is likely using binaries 
> to build their binary version of Tomcat ;) So it's not like they 
> are compiling all the stuff they are using to build Tomcat from 
> source. Before they compile and ship Tomcat. We do it all from 
> source. :) Which can explain extended deps right there.

Oh hell ...

<snip>

> The only thing I can say about the whole situation is they are working
> on releasing Tomcat 6.0.x in the next month or two. Tomcat 6.0.x has way
> less deps, and it's much clearer that the ones it has are needed. No
> core optional, or optional stuff. I might see about unmasking and
> versioning either alpha/beta the ebuild despite sources not being
> tagged :( So people can test it out and hopefully help get it released
> ASAP.
> 
> As for 5.5.x, it's not clear if there will be further releases from
> upstream. It's got lots of legacy code and likely deps.

Okay, since I'm not using it in production yet, I'll try the masked 6.0.6.

BTW: 

What does the jni useflag actually do ? Switch between java and native 
implementation of certain things (SSL, and what else?) ?

And it seems that ecj is used instead of the default java compiler. 
Can't jikes be used instead of ecj (IMHO, should be faster) ?


cu
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
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Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/axis -> commercial dependencies

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 00:15 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
>
> Well, they told me, I won't need them ... who the hell's right ?

Your asking users questions you should be asking the Tomcat developers.
Most all Tomcat users never ever even get close to compiling Tomcat.
Either ask the developers, or don't take any ones word and go look at
the sources. There is a build.properties.default file, which is pretty
much all you need to determine Tomcat's dependencies.

For the most part users are clueless and by posting there just opened up
a can of worms. Much less all kinds of false impressions of the state of
Tomcat on gentoo. Thanks for that, although I assume it was not done in
spite or to cause the Gentoo community grief. If so, die now :)

> In other words: tomcat ships lots of bundled third-party packages,
> while gentoo takes them from the upstream ?

Ships a few, and uses even more that are not shipped to build Tomcat. At
the moment we are leaving the build time stuff linked in at runtime. It
does no harm since the stuff is already on your system. If anything it's
a few less commonly used libs on has to link in.

> But then I wonder: if the tomcat folks can simply bundle them in,
> why does gentoo has to suffer from these download restrictions ?

Because instead of using every apps bundled dependencies. We install a
dependency once, and as many apps can link to it as needed. Less
duplicate more re-use.

> hmm, we should do some deeper investigations @ dev@tomcat ...

It's a waste of time. Upstream devs are not to responsive, and TC 5.5.x
is not really being actively developed. All efforts are going towards
Tomcat 6.0.x which was WAY less deps.

> Okay, since I'm not using it in production yet, I'll try the masked 6.0.6.

Fine, I will likely unmask it soon and version the ebuild. Despite
upstream sources not being versioned with beta or alpha. :(

> BTW: 
> 
> What does the jni useflag actually do ? Switch between java and native 
> implementation of certain things (SSL, and what else?) ?

It will build the libtcnative.so or Tomcat's SSL accelerator. Which for
some reason they ship tarred up sources to in the binary Tomcat. Not to
mention Tomcat 6.0.x sources have the native sources in it, yet ant is
set to download a tarball of the sources. It's quite a mess.

So at the moment the JNI flag does nothing, but cause breakage. Ideally
it will build and install libtcnative.so. So Tomcat can use it,
hopefully out of the box. At which time we will be one of the only
distros providing that ;)

> And it seems that ecj is used instead of the default java compiler. 
> Can't jikes be used instead of ecj (IMHO, should be faster) ?

Tomcat devs decided to switch to ecj. Both ecj and jikes come from IBM.
Jikes is no longer being developed. ecj is actively being developed. ecj
is faster than jikes, and many will argue it's faster than javac. Thus
upstream switching to it.

Also because of this, Tomcat only requires a JRE at runtime, not a full
JDK anymore ;)

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
Gentoo/Java

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