From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GX3i3-00087L-Uy for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:34:56 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.6) with SMTP id k99MY1Q6021968; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:34:01 GMT Received: from egr.msu.edu (jeeves.egr.msu.edu [35.9.37.127]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k99MUxJk004112 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:30:59 GMT Received: from [35.11.158.112] ([35.11.158.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by egr.msu.edu (8.13.7/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k99MUvju003380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <452ACDA1.2020803@gentoo.org> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:30:57 -0400 From: Alec Warner User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Macintosh/20060909) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users References: <1160056361.6289.17.camel@party.homenetwork> <1160059716.10489.38.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org> <200610090740.54261.karimarie@mail.rit.edu> In-Reply-To: <200610090740.54261.karimarie@mail.rit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 646e6b15-9b6c-43e3-9c5a-6d40922ca1b7 X-Archives-Hash: 31969dea02d9d569bdfb774b7d43ac10 Kari Hazzard wrote: > On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote: >> What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want? > > So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is > more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way. > > "If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is > working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced > situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This > is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins > While I like that quote; I think we are a long way from the times when it applied to what Gentoo was. Gentoo is at it's core a metadistribution; it is *those* tools to which I believe Daniel is speaking of in that statement. Obviously I can't make a liveCD that will satisfy everyone; there is no point in trying to do so. However I can give you a tree and catalyst and all the parts you need to build your own. That is what we call "enabling" and is really what I think his whole point was. >> See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a >> better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an >> installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment. >> It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and* >> installation. > > There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If > you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users > and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* > you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop > notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal > LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one. I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but because of (a subset of active) Developers. It isn't a statement that is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many instances). But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users is....well, naive. Gentoo was here before there were thousands of users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will probably still be here. We try to incorporate feedback from users because we are trying to make our work coincide with that feedback. Sometimes this is possible; many times it is not possible. Generally more Users = larger pool of Devs, and more Devs = more cool stuff going on here. To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just for me? Hell I'm a paying customer! But they don't care. And you aren't even required to pay for Gentoo at all! So why do you expect more? -Alec -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list