From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GQCS7-0008Fm-IO for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:30:08 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.6) with SMTP id k8L0THgE016532; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:29:17 GMT Received: from router.forgottenland.net (cust.92.104.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.104]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k8L0QGQI028513 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:26:16 GMT Received: from [192.168.1.138] (unknown [192.168.1.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by router.forgottenland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8984E3F73A for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:25:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4511DC25.10902@vanalteren.nl> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:26:13 +0200 From: Ramon van Alteren User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060720) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds References: <45119E0A.8060100@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: f968eaf6-dfca-4c0c-99b8-5d0fdba60801 X-Archives-Hash: 8dfd4027fe197d0a322013745ed46f6e Hi All, It's always interesting to be part of a project that seems to be in-focus considering the reply's, especially if it's your first within a OSS-group. It's a long reply, but please bear with me (is that correct english ?) Stuart Herbert wrote: > On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney wrote: >> Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and >> underhanded >> about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked >> to members >> of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked >> with rocket >> and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this >> project >> talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds. > > Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_? There was > a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you > and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev. I'm the random user that's being discussed here, I appreciate the effort (thanx stuart) but I can use a mail client. It's an interesting mail-thread so far. 1. I'm a user not a dev. You folks have a history of working together, I do not. Part of this thread seems to be rooted in that experience. I know very well that that is hard to put aside, but can you try ? 2. I like gentoo a lot, I've been using it since somewhere 2003 and have seen it grow. I looked at my mail-archive before sending this mail and I have been lurking in -dev to keep abreast of new stuff going on since may-2003. I've been using gentoo about a half year before that. 3. Gentoo is my job, building seeds as proposed in this project is my job. I run a 220+ serverpark which all run gentoo. I'm very proud of that and I seriously feel this is largely credit to the excellent work most of YOU have done to make this the most configurable and most "closely following $UPSTREAM" distribution there is ATM. It's not really easy to run such a serverpark on gentoo, hell it's not easy to run such a serverpark on any linux distribution. 4. Building seeds/stage4's is a large concern for me. With the moving portage tree as-it-is and the nature of a source build distribution, it's the only way to get a repeatable install process. You cannot install and manage 220 servers with the installation guide. It's just not possible regardless of how good a resource it is. We want it repeatable and we want it with as less human intervention as we can get it. 5. It's slightly shameful to run such a large serverpark on OSS without contributing back to the community. Part of this is rooted into the fact that up to a 180+ servers I was the only sysadmin for the entire set. Recently with new hires my work-hours have slacked and I have some time. This is(will be) the project I picked to contribute something back. I have been wanting to do that for some time. Give something back. OSS thrives on people giving stuff back because they like what they got. I would like and hope for gentoo to thrive. I very much like what I've got and regardless of this flame-fest I will continue using gentoo as our server-OS because it suits our business. I do try to encourage all my employees and interns to file bugs, contribute and get involved. However that is a voluntary choice. You cannot force people into a OSS project. You can only encourage them to do so, and show them that it's fun. 6. Frankly the response to the project-announcement is a big disappointment. No again it is a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT. For most of the people opposing here: Read your own dev-manual I've quoted it before to Chris (sorry mr white) and I will not do it again. You all agreed on those policies (by proxy). If you don't like your own policies you know the way. GLEP or approach council. period. 7. Please note that I'm not invalidating any concerns. They may be very real. I've followed the sunrise-flamefest closely and valid points were made in that discussion. They are in this one as well. I just want to convey the disappointment of butting in the time to read most of you Fine Manuals and be flamed to a crisp by following them. This is your public statement on how projects should behave. Work with a gentoo developer, get a project-page up and keep it up-to-date, be courteous to devs and users alike. that's it. Don't like it, apply for a change in policy. Do NOT revert to calling people idiots and/or putting down their work/plans/idea's. You have defined ways of changing policy, neither of above behavior is part of it. Sorry, but grow up. 8. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I like the work of -releng. I've been using their release-snapshots as base for my own stage4/seeds for at least 2 years. I think they produce quality work and I would be very proud to work with -releng to make the seeds-project a success. I am aware of how understaffed you are and I've refrained from asking questions before because I knew most of -releng had to be busy. The fact that I don't use -releng products in generating my stage4's/seeds is caused by the lack of docs on them and my own lack of time(the latter being probably the most important factor). Part of my personal goal of this seeds project was to document the process of using catalyst and genkernel in concert and in a server environment. Many people I talk to face the similar issues in growing from a 1-10 server environment on gentoo into something bigger. -releng has experience with that and has written some excellent tools to solve those problems. This is part of my extreme disappointment wrt the reply by Chris and other flamers in general. I would like to cooperate with releng. They made those tools, I like them a lot. I would like to help out and use them. I would hope that my using them in a different situation would give feedback to improve them, I would like to be part of the people that improve them. I'm trying to do so within your published framework of policies. I do not feel encouraged. 9. Most of this mail has been on policies, expected behavior and perceived behavior. I would like to get this discussion back to technical issues wrt to generating stages/seeds and livecd's. I would like to log into #gentoo-releng and ask questions about those technical issues. Or #gentoo-php where this started. This is what I enjoy. I would like to work out a way to produce these stages and improve on our method of doing so. Most of the tools I could use to do so are actually freaking cool and I would like to learn more about them. I would very, very VERY much like to work with all people within gentoo on technical issues regardless on how we feel on policy and social issues. Live by the policies you've defined as a group, flame anything that's not covered by them to a crisp until you have a policy. This project is IMHO as a user well within defined policy. 10. I have no good suggestions on how to avoid these flame-fests on policy, bahavior and expected behavior. I've tried to write to a mail that explains how this comes across as a user willing to contribute. I hope that part is clear. For those who've missed it: IT DOES NOT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED WITH GENTOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like gentoo and I will not back off because of a flamefest. Apart from that, as I have said, this is a large part of my job (generating stages/seeds) and I would like to cooperate with gentoo community at large to streamline the process. Basically I am scratching an itch, isn't that what OSS started with? If you've read up to here, thank you. Regards, Ramon It's more important to enjoy what you do, than to do what you enjoy. All of the statements and opinions in this mail are personal and in no way affiliated with any commercial or non-commercial entity I work with or have worked with in the past. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list