[gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

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Hi,

I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the project
is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new boxes with
ready-built Gentoo solutions.

At the moment, we're working on a basic LAMP Server (which is why we're
hanging out in #gentoo-php), and talking about following up with a LAMP
Developer Desktop.  If you'd like to help, we'd love to work with you.

We'd more than welcome other people who want to create completely different
seeds.  We're doing LAMP because it's an obvious thing to seed; we hope that
all sorts of seeds will appear down the road.

Until we've gone through a few iterations and worked out the best way to
create seeds, we're working in an overlay [2].  We certainly hope to bring
the work into the main tree once things have settled down.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/seeds/
[2] http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/seeds/

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert                                          stuart@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer                                   http://www.gentoo.org/
                                           http://blog.stuartherbert.com/

GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319  C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C
--


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Carsten Lohrke]

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First step should imho be, that you work with the Portage team on having 
proper set support implemented. Current meta ebuilds do suck, really.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Daniel Ostrow]

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On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 00:56 +0200, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> First step should imho be, that you work with the Portage team on having 
> proper set support implemented. Current meta ebuilds do suck, really.

No need for meta ebuilds...stage4 specs + catalyst.

--Dan

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/20/06, Daniel Ostrow <dostrow@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 00:56 +0200, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> > First step should imho be, that you work with the Portage team on having
> > proper set support implemented. Current meta ebuilds do suck, really.
>
> No need for meta ebuilds...stage4 specs + catalyst.
>
> --Dan

To start with, we'll be using meta ebuilds as well as a catalyst spec
file.  We'd like to keep the door open for folks who want to install a
seed from an existing Gentoo installation.

Best regards,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Thomas Cort]

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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:59 +0100
Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org> wrote:

> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/seeds/

Why is this being done as a top level project instead of as a subproject
of Release Engineering?

-Thomas

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Tuesday 19 September 2006 19:32, Thomas Cort wrote:
> Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/seeds/
>
> Why is this being done as a top level project instead of as a subproject
> of Release Engineering?

why does it need to be part of releng ?  GNAP does releases with catalyst, but 
it's part of embedded

in fact, this sort of thing would help greatly i think with producing images 
for embedded boards ...
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Thomas Cort]

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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:11:17 -0400
Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> why does it need to be part of releng ?

releng and seeds will be doing similar tasks, releasing stage tarballs.

-Thomas

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[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Daniel Watkins]

Thomas Cort wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:11:17 -0400
> Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> why does it need to be part of releng ?
> 
> releng and seeds will be doing similar tasks, releasing stage tarballs.

Might I ask why it needs to be anywhere specific until it's actually had
more than a few days to work itself out?

Dan


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-09-19 at 21:11 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> why does it need to be part of releng ?  GNAP does releases with catalyst, but 
> it's part of embedded

We also consider Koon to be a part of Release Engineering and he works
with us and we work with him for GNAP.  He even has access to the
Release Engineering build box to do his work on GNAP.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-09-19 at 20:00 +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the project
> is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new boxes with
> ready-built Gentoo solutions.

Uhh... "seeds"?

> Until we've gone through a few iterations and worked out the best way to
> create seeds, we're working in an overlay [2].  We certainly hope to bring
> the work into the main tree once things have settled down.

"bring the work to the main tree"?

As in... duplicate functionality already provided by catalyst for quite
some time?

Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Donnie Berkholz]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> "bring the work to the main tree"?
> 
> As in... duplicate functionality already provided by catalyst for quite
> some time?

Catalyst doesn't provide ongoing maintenance or migration of installed 
systems ... you need more than just a spec file for one of these seeds.

> Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
> something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
> necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?

Perhaps because anyone can use the tools, and they don't need to be a 
releng member to do so?

Thanks,
Donnie
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 07:04 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > "bring the work to the main tree"?
> > 
> > As in... duplicate functionality already provided by catalyst for quite
> > some time?
> 
> Catalyst doesn't provide ongoing maintenance or migration of installed 
> systems ... you need more than just a spec file for one of these seeds.

Like what?  It sounds like they aren't providing anything but tarballs.

> > Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
> > something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
> > necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?
> 
> Perhaps because anyone can use the tools, and they don't need to be a 
> releng member to do so?

Because it's *REALLY* stupid and shows just how unprofessional we are
when we have multiple groups doing the *EXACT* same thing using
different policies and procedures and all pushing it as if it were
*OFFICIAL* for the distribution.

I mean, we're really getting to the point where this is getting
*COMPLETELY* ludicrous.  Instead of trying to work together, we have
every yahoo with an @gentoo.org address who wants to do something
*slightly* differently coming up with a new "project" for it.

Why can't we simply try to work *together* on things instead of this
whole "I'll start a new project" mentality that we have?  It seems that
this *exact* sort of action is what causes frustrations between
developers and serves to strengthen the territorial pissing contests
that are going on daily all over Gentoo.  The reason why it seems Gentoo
is fracturing is because of multiple people doing the exact same thing
in slightly different ways.  Our users don't know what the hell is going
on anymore.  Well, they're not alone... neither do I.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/20/06, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Catalyst doesn't provide ongoing maintenance or migration of installed
> > systems ... you need more than just a spec file for one of these seeds.
>
> Like what?  It sounds like they aren't providing anything but tarballs.

Tarballs, VMware images, vserver images, Xen images, and CDs are what
we'll eventually deliver, sure.  Before then, we'll be putting
together packages and (we expect) profiles too.  It's likely that
we'll also support folks who want to install seeds from source (ie,
from a generic stage3 install) as well as folks who want to seed
directly from a stage4 tarball or equivalent.  We have already made a
(small) start in the project's overlay, and we've started documenting
our ideas and hopes on our project's wiki.

We don't pretend to have all the answers; part of the joy of this
project will be learning how to do this stuff, and what can be
achieved with the tools that we all have access to.

> Because it's *REALLY* stupid and shows just how unprofessional we are
> when we have multiple groups doing the *EXACT* same thing using
> different policies and procedures and all pushing it as if it were
> *OFFICIAL* for the distribution.

How exactly do rants like this look "professional" at all?

> I mean, we're really getting to the point where this is getting
> *COMPLETELY* ludicrous.  Instead of trying to work together, we have
> every yahoo with an @gentoo.org address who wants to do something
> *slightly* differently coming up with a new "project" for it.

We are working together.  I'm sorry if you feel left out, but we've
been talking to the folks that we need help from, and I'd like to
publicly say "thank you" to them for how helpful and supportive
they've been.  I hope Chris' email won't discourage anyone from
continuing to help us.

Until this childish tantrum arrived in my Inbox, I didn't know anyone
was unhappy.

Btw, I would thank you for coming to talk to me directly about this
issue first (which is how we ask Gentoo developers to behave) - but
unfortunately, you didn't, so I can't.

> Why can't we simply try to work *together* on things instead of this
> whole "I'll start a new project" mentality that we have?

I think you've just demonstrated the problem far better than I could have.

Best regards,
Stu
--
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Jon Portnoy]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:49:40AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> Because it's *REALLY* stupid and shows just how unprofessional we are
> when we have multiple groups doing the *EXACT* same thing using
> different policies and procedures and all pushing it as if it were
> *OFFICIAL* for the distribution.
> 
> I mean, we're really getting to the point where this is getting
> *COMPLETELY* ludicrous.  Instead of trying to work together, we have
> every yahoo with an @gentoo.org address who wants to do something
> *slightly* differently coming up with a new "project" for it.
> 

Once upon a time, all us yahoos with @gentoo.org addresses could start 
doing something new and interesting without getting chewed on.

I don't see you wanting to work together with anyone, I see you 
attacking this with no apparent justification provided except "we could 
have done this too"

> Why can't we simply try to work *together* on things instead of this
> whole "I'll start a new project" mentality that we have?  It seems that
> this *exact* sort of action is what causes frustrations between
> developers and serves to strengthen the territorial pissing contests
> that are going on daily all over Gentoo.  The reason why it seems Gentoo
> is fracturing is because of multiple people doing the exact same thing
> in slightly different ways.  Our users don't know what the hell is going
> on anymore.  Well, they're not alone... neither do I.
> 

Chris, I have all the respect in the world for releng and the work you 
do there. I know firsthand that releng is a very difficult task.

However, I am having great difficulty comprehending why you even 
bothered sending this mail. Are you trying to say releng was already 
doing this and nobody knew about it, or that releng should've been asked 
to approve this, or what? You're the only one getting territorial about 
it, I'm curious as to what the real issue is.

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Joshua Jackson wrote:
> However, as
> Chris stated loudly, that this is something that falls directly in
> line with Release Engineerings goal. Its not a top level project that
> creates something entirely new. Its a extension of the release of
> images that allow you to install a system.

Sure, neither is releng creating something entirely new. They're
deriving tarballs and CDs using ebuilds to build packages, so perhaps it
should be a subproject of the base project. You can make the "not
entirely new" argument for literally anything. Oh, and ebuilds wouldn't
work without a package manager, so perhaps all of this should fall under
the Portage project. But Portage wouldn't exist without people to work
on it, so maybe Devrel should be in charge of everything.

> Thus in my opinion it being a top level project is to use what someone
> else said is ludicrous.
> Treecleaners is another newer project that has
> spawned and its a subproject of the QA team. Why can't the seeds group
> be a part of the Releng group. The entire point of the teams is to
> assist each other for a combined benefit. Being a top level project,
> you are in essence saying that we want to do this on our own without
> the help of a group that has been doing a less focused version of what
> you are aiming to provide.

What I am getting from this is that you do not think people can
collaborate if they're not part of the same project. Being a project
just says that a group of developers want to work toward a certain goal.

I encourage everyone to read over
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0039.html and look at exactly
what a project is.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Joshua Jackson]

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Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Joshua Jackson wrote:
>> However, as
>> Chris stated loudly, that this is something that falls directly in
>> line with Release Engineerings goal. Its not a top level project that
>> creates something entirely new. Its a extension of the release of
>> images that allow you to install a system.
>
> Sure, neither is releng creating something entirely new. They're
> deriving tarballs and CDs using ebuilds to build packages, so perhaps it
> should be a subproject of the base project. You can make the "not
> entirely new" argument for literally anything. Oh, and ebuilds wouldn't
> work without a package manager, so perhaps all of this should fall under
> the Portage project. But Portage wouldn't exist without people to work
> on it, so maybe Devrel should be in charge of everything.
>
>> Thus in my opinion it being a top level project is to use what someone
>> else said is ludicrous.
>> Treecleaners is another newer project that has
>> spawned and its a subproject of the QA team. Why can't the seeds group
>> be a part of the Releng group. The entire point of the teams is to
>> assist each other for a combined benefit. Being a top level project,
>> you are in essence saying that we want to do this on our own without
>> the help of a group that has been doing a less focused version of what
>> you are aiming to provide.
>
> What I am getting from this is that you do not think people can
> collaborate if they're not part of the same project. Being a project
> just says that a group of developers want to work toward a certain goal.
>
> I encourage everyone to read over
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0039.html and look at exactly
> what a project is.
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
>
Oh lovely gross generalization time to use to prove points wrong
because there isn't any real argument against them *nods* I'm glad
we've reached this point of the conversation so quickly. It'll mean
that someone will be calling someone else a member of a certain
organization that kills all conversations. This is progressing nicely.

I'm not going to be bothered to reply to the latter as it apparently
went spacey...
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[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Daniel Watkins]

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> Being a top level project, you are in essence saying that we want to do
> this on our own without the help of a group that has been doing a less
> focused version of what you are aiming to provide. It goes against the
> entire point of the cooperation we strive for and infuriates me not only
> as a developer but as a user.

Surely if they were saying that they want to do this on their own without
the help of a group that has been doing a less focused version of what they
are aiming to provide they wouldn't have either set up a Gentoo project or
posted on gentoo-dev in the apparently vain hope of the help of a group
that has been doing a less focused version of what they are aiming to
provide but would now be on Sourceforge or somesuch setting this project up
entirely separately?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/20/06, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Uhh... "seeds"?

Yes, seeds.  Seems to describe what we're working towards as well as
any other name.

> "bring the work to the main tree"?
>
> As in... duplicate functionality already provided by catalyst for quite
> some time?

No.  As in, bring the packages and profiles from the overlay into the
main tree, once we're happy with them.

> Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
> something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
> necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?

We have, and folks there have been very helpful.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 15:07 +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> > Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
> > something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
> > necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?
> 
> We have, and folks there have been very helpful.

Really?  Who?

You haven't spoken to anyone that I've asked in #gentoo-releng.  You
haven't spoken to anyone on the genkernel or catalyst development teams.
Who exactly is it that you're talking to about this?

Anyway, I'm not saying I dislike the idea.  I'm just sick of new
"projects" spawning off without being thought out in the least, and
making us all look like jackasses.  Is it honestly going to be the new
"tradition" that every single new project that starts out is going to be
completely undiscussed, poorly thought-out, poorly implemented, and
cause us all to look like a bunch of fools for weeks on end before it
*finally* gets into a half-way workable state?  What ever happened to
*talking* about something before going off and announcing it to the
world as if it's some kind of completed project and ready for public
consumption?  Why is it necessary to even...

*sigh*

Nevermind.

I apologise to everyone for my responses to this.  I'm done.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> I apologise to everyone for my responses to this.

Thank you.

Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Ramon van Alteren]

Hi,

I'm one of the people working on seeds.
It's not a new project afaic i produce seed-alike things anyway because 
I need to run a large serverpark on gentoo and I can't hand-install 
servers anymore. We generate custom stage4's tailored to our environment.

One of the reasons i was/am interested in working on seeds is to learn 
more about the "official" tools like genkernel and catalyst.
And a side goal is to get them better documented while learning how to 
use them.

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 15:07 +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote:
>>> Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
>>> something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
>>> necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?
>> We have, and folks there have been very helpful.
> 
> Really?  Who?
> 
> You haven't spoken to anyone that I've asked in #gentoo-releng.  You
> haven't spoken to anyone on the genkernel or catalyst development teams.
> Who exactly is it that you're talking to about this?

I've sent mail to plasmaroo/Tim wrt catalyst and genkernel and how to 
get started. Mainly because he gave a interesting demonstration of both 
at Gentoo UK 2006 conference. He seemed like the right guy to contact.
He was kind enough to provide starting instructions.

> Anyway, I'm not saying I dislike the idea.

Great, I feel it would fill a gap for folks like me, who are in need of 
a repeatable process of generating stage4's or seeds. I also hope that 
the stages/seeds I cook up might be of use to others and at the same 
time hope to improve my own by cooperating with others on generating 
them. They way I'm generating them now could definitly use some improvement.

> I'm just sick of new
> "projects" spawning off without being thought out in the least, and
> making us all look like jackasses.  Is it honestly going to be the new
> "tradition" that every single new project that starts out is going to be
> completely undiscussed, poorly thought-out, poorly implemented, and
> cause us all to look like a bunch of fools for weeks on end before it
> *finally* gets into a half-way workable state?  What ever happened to
> *talking* about something before going off and announcing it to the
> world as if it's some kind of completed project and ready for public
> consumption?  Why is it necessary to even...

I've seen an announcement to -dev which is hardly the world but a place 
where new developments are discussed ?

Apart from that:
I fail to understand the fierceness of your reaction. I was (and still 
am) looking forward to cooperating as much as possible with releng on 
this since releng is indeed a place where much knowledge on the 
technology we plan to use is centered.

I looked at the dev-manual which states the following on projects:

*   A project exists if it has a web page at 
www.gentoo.org/proj/en/<project name> that is maintained. ("Maintained" 
means that the information on the page is factually correct and not 
out-of-date.) If the webpage isn't maintained, it is presumed dead.

* It may have one or many leads, and the leads are selected by the 
members of the project. This selection must occur at least once every 12 
months and may occur at any time.

* It may have zero or more sub-projects. Sub-projects are just projects 
that provide some additional structure, and their web pages are in the 
project's space.

* Not everything (or everyone) needs a project.

* Projects need not be long-term.

* Projects may well conflict with other projects. That's okay.

* Any dev may create a new project just by creating a new page (or, more 
realistically, directory and page) in gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en.

The text seems to encourage people to start projects if they want work 
together on common goals. It does not require new projects to provide a 
well thought-out roadmap with stated approval of relevant other 
projects. Neither does it require projects to be discussed on -dev 
before inception.

If you feel in anyway mistreated or offended by the fact that this 
project was started I would like to know why, and if possible remedy the 
situation.

FWIW: I've been looking at catalyst and genkernel the last two days and 
am trying to get both properly setup in the limited spare-time I have 
after work. They both look like awesome tools for what I want to do.

I hope that your view on the matter does not reflect the view of the 
entire -releng team. I would like to work together as much as possible, 
however the first reaction is not exactly favorable.

> I apologise to everyone for my responses to this.  I'm done.

Thank you.
I hope that with that any resentment is out of the air, if not feel free 
to grab me in IRC:Innocenti. I currently hang out on #gentoo-php, I'll 
try and make a habit of logging into #gentoo-releng more often from now on.

Best Regards,

Ramon



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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Danny van Dyk wrote:
> * How do you want to implement the profiles?
> 
> * Re: the meta-ebuilds you'd been talking about in this thread: Have you
>   yet considered to use the profiles' packages file?

I've mentioned this idea to Stuart. Thanks for bringing it up again. Do
you think it's the best way to go?

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Danny van Dyk]

Am Mittwoch, 20. September 2006 20:56 schrieb Donnie Berkholz:
> Danny van Dyk wrote:
> > * How do you want to implement the profiles?
> >
> > * Re: the meta-ebuilds you'd been talking about in this thread:
> > Have you yet considered to use the profiles' packages file?
>
> I've mentioned this idea to Stuart. Thanks for bringing it up again.
> Do you think it's the best way to go?

As long as we have no package sets support in portage, I do indeed think 
that this is the best way to go. Didn't realize that you mentioned it, 
too.
@Stuart: What do you think?

Danny
-- 
Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/20/06, Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> As long as we have no package sets support in portage, I do indeed think
> that this is the best way to go. Didn't realize that you mentioned it,
> too.
> @Stuart: What do you think?

Right now, I'm not too concerned about the lack of package set
support.  That might change down the road, after we've lived with it
for awhile.

One of the things we're going to trial is supporting USE flags in the
seeds themselves.  We'll try out having the
seeds/lamp-server/release-1 profile (or whatever it ends up being
called) setting a suitable set of USE flags to support a LAMP
environment that includes Apache, PHP4&5, Perl, Python, and Rails.
The seeds-base/lamp-server package itself will rely on USE flags to
switch on all those options.  If anyone wants to build the seed from
source locally, they'll be able to change the USE flags (for example)
to build a LAMP Server that's dedicated to just Rails, or just Python.

We think that'll make the LAMP Server seed more useful to our users in
practice.  The folks who want a quick stage4 tarball to seed a box -
they'll get the whole nine yards.  But folks who want to customise
things (by compiling from source, probably using a stage3 tarball and
the standard minimal install CD) - they're catered for too.

That's why - atm - we don't want to just lump everything into a
profile, or just into a catalyst spec file.  Maybe one of those will
turn out to be the right way to go, but we'd like to explore this
approach first, and see how things turn out.

Best regards,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Josh Saddler]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Stuart Herbert wrote:
> On 9/20/06, Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> As long as we have no package sets support in portage, I do indeed think
>> that this is the best way to go. Didn't realize that you mentioned it,
>> too.
>> @Stuart: What do you think?
> 
> Right now, I'm not too concerned about the lack of package set
> support.  That might change down the road, after we've lived with it
> for awhile.
> 
> One of the things we're going to trial is supporting USE flags in the
> seeds themselves.  We'll try out having the
> seeds/lamp-server/release-1 profile (or whatever it ends up being
> called) setting a suitable set of USE flags to support a LAMP
> environment that includes Apache, PHP4&5, Perl, Python, and Rails.
> The seeds-base/lamp-server package itself will rely on USE flags to
> switch on all those options.  If anyone wants to build the seed from
> source locally, they'll be able to change the USE flags (for example)
> to build a LAMP Server that's dedicated to just Rails, or just Python.
> 
> We think that'll make the LAMP Server seed more useful to our users in
> practice.  The folks who want a quick stage4 tarball to seed a box -
> they'll get the whole nine yards.  But folks who want to customise
> things (by compiling from source, probably using a stage3 tarball and
> the standard minimal install CD) - they're catered for too.
> 
> That's why - atm - we don't want to just lump everything into a
> profile, or just into a catalyst spec file.  Maybe one of those will
> turn out to be the right way to go, but we'd like to explore this
> approach first, and see how things turn out.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stu

Seems like a catalyst specfile would be a nice complement to an existing stage4
tarball, when possible. That way you can get your immediate canned install
pleasure, while having something to build on for future needs, or if (say) you
have a specialized situation that you need to further tweak for (say) several
clients without having to do extensive work installing/tweaking the original stage4.

I like the suggestions so far, though I don't think a metapackage is really
necessary -- the issue here seems to be fresh installations, not emerging a
package set (or similar) to magically turn one's existing Gentoo box into a LAMP
server.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/20/06, Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hi Stuart,
>
> The pages are correct.

Cool.

> He didn't called you a liar.

"You haven't spoken to anyone on the genkernel or catalyst development
teams."  - was in response to me saying that I had.  It's difficult to
interpret that as anything other than calling me a liar.

> However, what you wrote is not quite
> correct. You did talk to 2 people of a whole bunch of people. Neither
> Chris, Lars, Tobias, Andrew nor me knew anything about it.

??  I never said we'd talked to all of you.  I said we'd spoken to
folks on the teams.  What I said is correct.

> If I understand you correctly, you did talk about usage of catalyst,
> but you never informed Releng (as a project) about your intentions.
> And that is what Chris is complaining about. And I agree with him here.

Duly noted.

> Your project sounds really interesting though. I'd like to ask you some
> questions:
>
> * Are you aiming to release vserver images/stage4s together with
>   the "normal" bianual releases?

Sorry, thought I'd covered this earlier (in fact, I know we did).
We're not at the stage of having that answer.  Our focus at the moment
is on getting a working seed defined and tested.

My personal feeling is that seeds are more likely to have a release
schedule based on what their respective $UPSTREAMs are doing.
$UPSTREAMs have their own, individual schedules; I believe that we
need agility to match.  Tying all seeds, irrespective of their
purpose, to the release of our generic release media doesn't seem like
the only answer that will work here.

> * If yes, are you going to use the same snapshots?

We haven't discussed it.  Atm, we're focused on step 1, which is to
get the seeds themselves working from our overlay.

> * If yes, for what arches do you want to release?

That will vary from seed to seed.  There's no automatic need to try
and release each seed on each and every arch that Gentoo as a whole
supports.

The advantage of the meta-package approach is that the bulk of the
value of the seed will be available on any arch where the packages are
keyworded.  We don't need create release media for each and every seed
for each and every arch.  We can deliver that release media for the
seed/arch combos where it makes sense.

A blanket policy of creating release media for every seed on every
arch doesn't seem practical or desirable.

> * How do you want to implement the profiles?

We've only talked about profiles so far for a single seed.  We'd
prefer to inherit from the hardened profile, but we have a number of
questions that we need to answer before we can be sure on that.  We
won't know for certain what the answer is until we've been able to
define and field-test the LAMP Developer Desktop seed.  We don't
expect to deliver that seed until we've put out a LAMP Server seed for
testing and feedback.

> * Re: the meta-ebuilds you'd been talking about in this thread: Have you
>   yet considered to use the profiles' packages file?

Yes.  We think that we'll be making use of that, but we don't want
profiles to replace the meta-ebuilds.  We're going to try both, and
play with that for awhile to see where the balance best lies.

Best regards,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Alec Warner]

Stuart Herbert wrote:
> On 9/20/06, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Uhh... "seeds"?
> 
> Yes, seeds.  Seems to describe what we're working towards as well as
> any other name.
> 
>> "bring the work to the main tree"?
>>
>> As in... duplicate functionality already provided by catalyst for quite
>> some time?
> 
> No.  As in, bring the packages and profiles from the overlay into the
> main tree, once we're happy with them.
> 
>> Why hasn't anybody even *tried* to contact Release Engineering on
>> something like this, considering we already have all of the tools
>> necessary to complete this, as well as the expertise?
> 
> We have, and folks there have been very helpful.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stu

I think Chris's primary concern is one of "Tell us whats up before it
happens."  Similarly to Sunrise; don't just spring a project, propose it
and ask for feedback GLEP style.  You took a long long time to get
Overlays up and running and it's a great project; so I know you know how
to do things well ;)

Maybe I will propose an amendment to the GLEP requiring this; I'd really
like to see a discussion about a project here first (even if you
completely ignore the suggestions and criticisms) then to just have a
magical new project.

-Alec
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 12:38, Alec Warner wrote:
> I think Chris's primary concern is one of "Tell us whats up before it
> happens."

why should he care ?  some Gentoo guys take catalyst and produce stage4s 
directed at certain applications

they arent talking about any of the tools releng develops other than using 
them ... do i have to notify people everytime i turn around and start using 
their tools in a new project ?  GNU WH0RES LOOK OUT
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> On Wednesday 20 September 2006 12:38, Alec Warner wrote:
>>> I think Chris's primary concern is one of "Tell us whats up before it
>>> happens."
>>
>> why should he care ?  some Gentoo guys take catalyst and produce
>> stage4s directed at certain applications
> 
> He cares because they're basically extending the roll of releng without
> it being under releng's control. I know I'd be annoyed if they release a
> x86 stage4 and then *I* gets bugs, but I know absolutely nothing about
> it. Having 2 projects doing almost the same thing is just going to
> confuse users.

As somebody's already mentioned, the embedded project releases GNAP and
has a releng liaison. There's no reason the seeds project couldn't also
have a releng liaison, which seems to resolve the main dispute here.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Andrew Gaffney]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Andrew Gaffney wrote:
>> Mike Frysinger wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 20 September 2006 12:38, Alec Warner wrote:
>>>> I think Chris's primary concern is one of "Tell us whats up before it
>>>> happens."
>>> why should he care ?  some Gentoo guys take catalyst and produce
>>> stage4s directed at certain applications
>> He cares because they're basically extending the roll of releng without
>> it being under releng's control. I know I'd be annoyed if they release a
>> x86 stage4 and then *I* gets bugs, but I know absolutely nothing about
>> it. Having 2 projects doing almost the same thing is just going to
>> confuse users.
> 
> As somebody's already mentioned, the embedded project releases GNAP and
> has a releng liaison. There's no reason the seeds project couldn't also
> have a releng liaison, which seems to resolve the main dispute here.

That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a releng 
liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this project.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

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[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Christian 'Opfer' Faulhammer]

Tach Andrew,                                  0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID)

Andrew Gaffney schrieb:
>> As somebody's already mentioned, the embedded project releases GNAP and
>> has a releng liaison. There's no reason the seeds project couldn't also
>> have a releng liaison, which seems to resolve the main dispute here.
> That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a
> releng liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this
> project.

 So now releng does know and maybe people agree that both projects should  
work together.  Maybe everyone should cool down a little, and start  
working.

V-Li

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Andrew Gaffney]

Christian 'Opfer' Faulhammer wrote:
> Tach Andrew,                                  0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID)
> 
> Andrew Gaffney schrieb:
>>> As somebody's already mentioned, the embedded project releases GNAP and
>>> has a releng liaison. There's no reason the seeds project couldn't also
>>> have a releng liaison, which seems to resolve the main dispute here.
>> That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a
>> releng liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this
>> project.
> 
>  So now releng does know and maybe people agree that both projects should  
> work together.  Maybe everyone should cool down a little, and start  
> working.

Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and underhanded 
about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked to members 
of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked with rocket 
and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this project 
talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds.

Nobody who talked to anyone in releng mentioned anything about this "seeds" 
project. In this case, "we've talked to releng about this" really means "we've 
asked various people related to releng random questions that sort of have to do 
with our project but didn't tell them why we were asking".

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 16:01, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and
> underhanded about this whole thing.

jesus give over and stop nit picking

when they're ready to actually make a release and they dont go through releng, 
feel free to get bitchy; until then, let them develop
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and underhanded
> about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked to members
> of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked with rocket
> and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this project
> talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds.

Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_?  There was
a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you
and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev.

Here's one thing I don't get.  We have a project (Gentoo Seeds), which
is attracting interest and volunteers both from inside the Gentoo dev
ranks and (especially) outside.  Granted, it's not a lot of people,
but interest is always welcome.  Assuming we go on, and are successful
in establishing a sustainable project, that translates into extra
folks working on releases (and fresh eyes to boot).  It might only be
one or two people, but that's still one or two people more than what
we had midnight last Sunday.

Given all the complaints from releng in general (and Chris in
particular) about there not being _enough_ folks working on releases,
isn't this a _great_ opportunity for releng to recruit some
additional, motivated folks to help solve that problem?  Can't you see
that?

How much of a dent in this opportunity do you think this afternoon's
outpouring has made?  How many folks, reading what you've said (and
what you've ignored), will still feel motivated to consider maybe
moving on to releng in the future?

Could you have a think about that, and re-consider the unnecessary
hostility and unjustified accusations that you're filling this thread
with?

Many thanks,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Andrew Gaffney]

Stuart Herbert wrote:
> On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and 
>> underhanded
>> about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked 
>> to members
>> of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked 
>> with rocket
>> and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this 
>> project
>> talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds.
> 
> Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_?  There was
> a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you
> and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev.

By "some random user", I meant that plasmaroo had absolutely no idea that he was 
associated with this Gentoo project that you announced this morning. It was not 
an insult against our users.

> Here's one thing I don't get.  We have a project (Gentoo Seeds), which
> is attracting interest and volunteers both from inside the Gentoo dev
> ranks and (especially) outside.  Granted, it's not a lot of people,
> but interest is always welcome.  Assuming we go on, and are successful
> in establishing a sustainable project, that translates into extra
> folks working on releases (and fresh eyes to boot).  It might only be
> one or two people, but that's still one or two people more than what
> we had midnight last Sunday.
> 
> Given all the complaints from releng in general (and Chris in
> particular) about there not being _enough_ folks working on releases,
> isn't this a _great_ opportunity for releng to recruit some
> additional, motivated folks to help solve that problem?  Can't you see
> that?

The help Releng needs is with *testing*. We've got building covered just fine.

> How much of a dent in this opportunity do you think this afternoon's
> outpouring has made?  How many folks, reading what you've said (and
> what you've ignored), will still feel motivated to consider maybe
> moving on to releng in the future?
> 
> Could you have a think about that, and re-consider the unnecessary
> hostility and unjustified accusations that you're filling this thread
> with?

Unjustified accusations? Can you point out one "unjustified accusation" I've made?

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Ramon van Alteren]

Hi All,

It's always interesting to be part of a project that seems to be 
in-focus considering the reply's, especially if it's your first within a 
OSS-group. It's a long reply, but please bear with me (is that correct 
english ?)

Stuart Herbert wrote:
> On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and 
>> underhanded
>> about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked 
>> to members
>> of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked 
>> with rocket
>> and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this 
>> project
>> talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds.
> 
> Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_?  There was
> a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you
> and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev.

I'm the random user that's being discussed here, I appreciate the effort 
(thanx stuart) but I can use a mail client.

It's an interesting mail-thread so far.

1. I'm a user not a dev. You folks have a history of working together, I 
do not. Part of this thread seems to be rooted in that experience. I 
know very well that that is hard to put aside, but can you try ?

2. I like gentoo a lot, I've been using it since somewhere 2003 and have 
seen it grow. I looked at my mail-archive before sending this mail and I 
have been lurking in -dev to keep abreast of new stuff going on since 
may-2003. I've been using gentoo about a half year before that.

3. Gentoo is my job, building seeds as proposed in this project is my 
job. I run a 220+ serverpark which all run gentoo. I'm very proud of 
that and I seriously feel this is largely credit to the excellent work 
most of YOU have done to make this the most configurable and most 
"closely following $UPSTREAM" distribution there is ATM. It's not really 
easy to run such a serverpark on gentoo, hell it's not easy to run such 
a serverpark on any linux distribution.

4. Building seeds/stage4's is a large concern for me. With the moving 
portage tree as-it-is and the nature of a source build distribution, 
it's the only way to get a repeatable install process. You cannot 
install and manage 220 servers with the installation guide. It's just 
not possible regardless of how good a resource it is. We want it 
repeatable and we want it with as less human intervention as we can get it.

5. It's slightly shameful to run such a large serverpark on OSS without 
contributing back to the community. Part of this is rooted into the fact 
that up to a 180+ servers I was the only sysadmin for the entire set.
Recently with new hires my work-hours have slacked and I have some time. 
This is(will be) the project I picked to contribute something back. I 
have been wanting to do that for some time. Give something back. OSS 
thrives on people giving stuff back because they like what they got. I 
would like and hope for gentoo to thrive. I very much like what I've got 
and regardless of this flame-fest I will continue using gentoo as our 
server-OS because it suits our business.
I do try to encourage all my employees and interns to file bugs, 
contribute and get involved. However that is a voluntary choice. You 
cannot force people into a OSS project. You can only encourage them to 
do so, and show them that it's fun.

6. Frankly the response to the project-announcement is a big 
disappointment. No again it is a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT.
For most of the people opposing here: Read your own dev-manual
I've quoted it before to Chris (sorry mr white) and I will not do it 
again. You all agreed on those policies (by proxy). If you don't like 
your own policies you know the way. GLEP or approach council. period.

7. Please note that I'm not invalidating any concerns. They may be very 
real. I've followed the sunrise-flamefest closely and valid points were 
made in that discussion. They are in this one as well. I just want to 
convey the disappointment of butting in the time to read most of you 
Fine Manuals and be flamed to a crisp by following them. This is your 
public statement on how projects should behave. Work with a gentoo 
developer, get a project-page up and keep it up-to-date, be courteous to 
  devs and users alike. that's it.
Don't like it, apply for a change in policy. Do NOT revert to calling 
people idiots and/or putting down their work/plans/idea's. You have 
defined ways of changing policy, neither of above behavior is part of 
it. Sorry, but grow up.

8. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I like the work of 
-releng. I've been using their release-snapshots as base for my own 
stage4/seeds for at least 2 years. I think they produce quality work and 
I would be very proud to work with -releng to make the seeds-project a 
success. I am aware of how understaffed you are and I've refrained from 
asking questions before because I knew most of -releng had to be busy.
The fact that I don't use -releng products in generating my 
stage4's/seeds is caused by the lack of docs on them and my own lack of 
time(the latter being probably the most important factor). Part of my 
personal goal of this seeds project was to document the process of using 
catalyst and genkernel in concert and in a server environment. Many 
people I talk to face the similar issues in growing from a 1-10 server 
environment on gentoo into something bigger. -releng has experience with 
that and has written some excellent tools to solve those problems. This 
is part of my extreme disappointment wrt the reply by Chris and other 
flamers in general. I would like to cooperate with releng. They made 
those tools, I like them a lot. I would like to help out and use them. I 
would hope that my using them in a different situation would give 
feedback to improve them, I would like to be part of the people that 
improve them. I'm trying to do so within your published framework of 
policies.

I do not feel encouraged.

9. Most of this mail has been on policies, expected behavior and 
perceived behavior. I would like to get this discussion back to 
technical issues wrt to generating stages/seeds and livecd's.
I would like to log into #gentoo-releng and ask questions about those 
technical issues. Or #gentoo-php where this started. This is what I 
enjoy. I would like to work out a way to produce these stages and 
improve on our method of doing so. Most of the tools I could use to do 
so are actually freaking cool and I would like to learn more about them.
I would very, very VERY much like to work with all people within gentoo 
on technical issues regardless on how we feel on policy and social 
issues. Live by the policies you've defined as a group, flame anything 
that's not covered by them to a crisp until you have a policy. This 
project is IMHO as a user well within defined policy.


10. I have no good suggestions on how to avoid these flame-fests on 
policy, bahavior and expected behavior. I've tried to write to a mail 
that explains how this comes across as a user willing to contribute. I 
hope that part is clear. For those who've missed it: IT DOES NOT 
ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED WITH GENTOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like gentoo and I will not back off because of a flamefest. Apart from 
that, as I have said, this is a large part of my job (generating 
stages/seeds) and I would like to cooperate with gentoo community at 
large to streamline the process. Basically I am scratching an itch, 
isn't that what OSS started with?

If you've read up to here, thank you.

Regards,

Ramon

It's more important to enjoy what you do, than to do what you enjoy.

All of the statements and opinions in this mail are personal and in no 
way affiliated with any commercial or non-commercial entity I work with 
or have worked with in the past.
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[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Christian 'Opfer' Faulhammer]

Tach Ramon,                                  0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID)

Thanks for that post.

Ramon van Alteren schrieb:
> 9. Most of this mail has been on policies, expected behavior and
> perceived behavior. I would like to get this discussion back to
> technical issues wrt to generating stages/seeds and livecd's.

 That's what I wanted to say.  releng shouldn't feel useless or anything,  
you have the right to start a project, but I still think releng is right  
you two should cooperate.  Seeds is in a very early phase, so you can  
still get in sync with releng and talk about using all knowledge/skills  
for the good of both.
 There is no actual need to be a subproject, but both should really share  
their experiences and communicate a lot, that is the main request (I  
think).  As I just read, releng feels a bit stepped on their toes, because  
they planned something similar, so you see the overlapping area of  
interest.
 And as seemant said: Step back a little, forget about everything and  
start again.

V-Li

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 15:26, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a releng
> liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this project.

they havent even started releasing anything yet, they're just getting started

why are you throwing paperwork at them before they even need it ?  otherwise 
you're saying "anyone who ever plans at any point in the future on making 
releases needs to be part of releng"
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Josh Saddler]

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Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a
> releng liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this
> project.
> 

I dunno . . . does releng really need to be involved, except if these stage4
tarballs were to be included on regular 200X.X media?

I simply don't see why this has to be a releng project -- I'm surprised anyone
thinks it should be. Give releng a break; they have enough hard work to do.
That's my mindset, anyway. Seems to be that any project could roll up a stage4
release for their stuff (LAMP, GNAP type stuff comes to mind immediately) using
existing stages, since they've already been validated, else releng wouldn't have
released 'em in the first place.

The potentially tricky issue I see is the question of support -- supposing one
project screws up their canned stage -- who takes the blame? Who takes the QA
hit? Probably there should be some central guidelines/plans/docs on the stage4
process, so that it can be adhered to and be beneficial for more than one project.

I'm still getting used to this new definition of "stage4" -- on the forums at
least, the concept of stage4 has been around for years, though its definition
refers to canned backups of one's current system. ;)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Josh Saddler]

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Oh look, we just got Slashdotted by someone doing their level best to create a
smear campaign, or at least to spread FUD:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/09/20/2246231.shtml

As I said on IRC, new project, new whiteboard. why don't we leave it up to
*those project heads* to decide what kind of structure they want, how
inter-project liaisons work, and so on, and generally let themselves run without
everyone policing their _non-existent_ objectives? I mean, _please_ people, they
don't have much firmly settled yet, and everyone is already making judgment calls.

Stop with the "what-if-omgs" and "oh, it'll be horrible because of..." and wait
to see what they come up with.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:59 +0100 Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the
| project is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new
| boxes with ready-built Gentoo solutions.

Wouldn't this be considered a wide ranging feature or enhancement to
Gentoo?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaranm at ciaranm.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Seemant Kulleen]

On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 20:33 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:59 +0100 Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> | I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the
> | project is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new
> | boxes with ready-built Gentoo solutions.
> 
> Wouldn't this be considered a wide ranging feature or enhancement to
> Gentoo?

It doesn't seem to affect a large set of people, it's totally optional,
and right now, it's just exploratory.  Do we really need to mire it in
bureaucracy?  I'm honestly asking.

-- 
Seemant Kulleen
Trustee, Gentoo Foundation
Developer, Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:45:24 -0400 Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 20:33 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:59 +0100 Stuart Herbert
| > <stuart@gentoo.org> wrote:
| > | I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of
| > | the project is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to
| > | 'seed' new boxes with ready-built Gentoo solutions.
| > 
| > Wouldn't this be considered a wide ranging feature or enhancement to
| > Gentoo?
| 
| It doesn't seem to affect a large set of people, it's totally
| optional, and right now, it's just exploratory.  Do we really need to
| mire it in bureaucracy?  I'm honestly asking.

A GLEP doesn't have to be bureaucracy. It can be nothing more than a
way of ensuring that the correct technical decisions are made. For a
project that could end up affecting a lot of people, getting the design
right and determining exact goals is a very useful first step.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaranm at ciaranm.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 23:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> A GLEP doesn't have to be bureaucracy. It can be nothing more than a
> way of ensuring that the correct technical decisions are made. For a
> project that could end up affecting a lot of people, getting the design
> right and determining exact goals is a very useful first step.

As much as ISO-9002 certification doesn't guarantee quality products/services, 
a GLEP does not ensure correct decisions. It just ensures that some things 
will not get done because they are red-taped to death.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Josh Saddler]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:59 +0100 Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> | I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the
> | project is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new
> | boxes with ready-built Gentoo solutions.
> 
> Wouldn't this be considered a wide ranging feature or enhancement to
> Gentoo?
> 
*shrug* depends on who would want to use it. just because it has the potential
to cover a wide range of projects and packages in terms of usefulness, doesn't
mean it automatically changes things for those projects/packages. at least, not
to the point that it has a wide-ranging *effect* on Gentoo as a whole. i see
"potential usefulness" and "immediate effect aka GLEP" as separate issues.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 15:33, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:59 +0100 Stuart Herbert <stuart@gentoo.org>
> | I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the
> | project is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new
> | boxes with ready-built Gentoo solutions.
>
> Wouldn't this be considered a wide ranging feature or enhancement to
> Gentoo?

no
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Luca Barbato]

Stuart Herbert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've created a new project, called Gentoo Seeds [1].  The aim of the project
> is to create stage4 tarballs which can be used to 'seed' new boxes with
> ready-built Gentoo solutions.

Interestingly enough releng was planning some stage4 support for the
next release and now their toes are feeling steppend on...

> 
> At the moment, we're working on a basic LAMP Server (which is why we're
> hanging out in #gentoo-php), and talking about following up with a LAMP
> Developer Desktop.  If you'd like to help, we'd love to work with you.

Looks a nice idea as I said before.

> 
> We'd more than welcome other people who want to create completely different
> seeds.  We're doing LAMP because it's an obvious thing to seed; we hope that
> all sorts of seeds will appear down the road.

Could you please planning something about acting as liason between
projects touched by seeds?

E.G. random guy starts contributing a media seed, I'd like to be
notified and maybe have also x11 people notified, just in case the seed
overlay is doing something that I won't support.

Sounds reasonable?

lu

PS: I'd put a rule that will bar seed contribution if there isn't a
liason to a touched project just to keep hardtotrack bugs to the minimum.

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Seeds

[Stuart Herbert]

On 9/21/06, Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Could you please planning something about acting as liason between
> projects touched by seeds?
>
> E.G. random guy starts contributing a media seed, I'd like to be
> notified and maybe have also x11 people notified, just in case the seed
> overlay is doing something that I won't support.
>
> Sounds reasonable?

Very reasonable.  We'll do our very best to achieve that.

One other rule I'll be operating is that every seed needs to be owned
by a full Gentoo developer, preferably someone who is from the project
that the seed most directly relates to.

Best regards,
Stu
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