[gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Simon Toth]

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Hi,

I posted this to the bugzilla, but was redirected here, so:

INTRO:
I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
named without any convention.

PROPOSAL:
1) create a new directory in portage root eye-candy [or similar]
2) move all theme packages in there
3) follow the naming convention: [application]-[type]-[name] (for gentoo
cursors this would be x11-cursors-gentoo, or for kdm theme tux mania it
would be kdm-theme-tuxmania)
4) keep original packages as meta packages with notice, that users
should upgrade

-- 	
Bc. Simon Toth
www.fi.muni.cz/~xtoth1/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Chris White]

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On Friday 18 August 2006 08:12 am, Simon Toth wrote:
> INTRO:
> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
> named without any convention.

Themes is kind of tricky.  More on that in a bit.

> PROPOSAL:
> 1) create a new directory in portage root eye-candy [or similar]

Naming needs help, but that's for later ;)

> 2) move all theme packages in there

I assume you mean everything in x11-themes?

> 3) follow the naming convention: [application]-[type]-[name] (for gentoo
> cursors this would be x11-cursors-gentoo, or for kdm theme tux mania it
> would be kdm-theme-tuxmania)

This worries me... I'm afraid this will promote users to start sending us 
themes for everything and the kitchen sink.  This is a nightmare to an 
already interesting problem of tree maintainance.

> 4) keep original packages as meta packages with notice, that users
> should upgrade

We add this to an update file which handles this for users transparently.

-- 
Chris White
Gentoo Developer aka:
ChrisWhite
cpw
ChrisWhite|Work
WhiteChocolate
VanillaWhite
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WhiteLight
WhiteCheese
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WhiteWhite

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Simon Toth]

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* Chris White wrote, On 18.8.2006 17:32:
> On Friday 18 August 2006 08:12 am, Simon Toth wrote:
>> INTRO:
>> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
>> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
>> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
>> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
>> named without any convention.
> 
> Themes is kind of tricky.  More on that in a bit.
> 
>> PROPOSAL:
>> 1) create a new directory in portage root eye-candy [or similar]
> 
> Naming needs help, but that's for later ;)
> 
>> 2) move all theme packages in there
> 
> I assume you mean everything in x11-themes?
I had the feeling that there were some programs, hallucinations are
coming, I better get a pause :)

>> 3) follow the naming convention: [application]-[type]-[name] (for gentoo
>> cursors this would be x11-cursors-gentoo, or for kdm theme tux mania it
>> would be kdm-theme-tuxmania)
> 
> This worries me... I'm afraid this will promote users to start sending us 
> themes for everything and the kitchen sink.  This is a nightmare to an 
> already interesting problem of tree maintainance.
Well, do you really think that moving some packages and changing their
names will cause people sending packages? :)

Instead it will improve the maintenance, look into x11-themes, there are
one word named packages! (example, what is comix? theme, program,
cursors package?)

>> 4) keep original packages as meta packages with notice, that users
>> should upgrade
> 
> We add this to an update file which handles this for users transparently.

Even better :)

- --
Bc. Simon Toth
www.fi.muni.cz/~xtoth1
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Simon Toth wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I posted this to the bugzilla, but was redirected here, so:
> 
> INTRO:
> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
> named without any convention.

What would be more interesting is something like app-portage/g-cpan for
various themes sites. This way, individual themes wouldn't need to get
packaged and maintained.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Simon Toth]

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* Donnie Berkholz wrote, On 18.8.2006 17:44:
> Simon Toth wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I posted this to the bugzilla, but was redirected here, so:
>>
>> INTRO:
>> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
>> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
>> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
>> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
>> named without any convention.
> 
> What would be more interesting is something like app-portage/g-cpan for
> various themes sites. This way, individual themes wouldn't need to get
> packaged and maintained.

Yes, that would be nice, but it would require creating a new independent
site which will contain database of theme packages.

- --
Bc. Simon Toth
www.fi.muni.cz/~xtoth1
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:44:04 -0700 Donnie Berkholz
<dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
| What would be more interesting is something like app-portage/g-cpan
| for various themes sites. This way, individual themes wouldn't need
| to get packaged and maintained.

If anyone's looking to experiment with this kind of thing... Paludis
supports multiple repository formats. We're already supporting CRAN,
and we might do CPAN, CTAN, that Ruby thingie at some point (although
those're trickier because of conflicts with in-tree stuff).

I looked into doing it for vim.org, although there's no standard
package format there and no easy way of figuring out where to install
something if it's just shipped as a .vim file (is it a colour scheme, a
plugin, an ftplugin, an indent script, ...?). That's the biggie here --
is there a standard upstream format for whatever it is they're
distributing?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Michael Cummings]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:44:04 -0700 Donnie Berkholz
> <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> | What would be more interesting is something like app-portage/g-cpan
> | for various themes sites. This way, individual themes wouldn't need
> | to get packaged and maintained.
> 
> If anyone's looking to experiment with this kind of thing... Paludis
> supports multiple repository formats. We're already supporting CRAN,
> and we might do CPAN, 

really? i thought you told me in irc we weren't worth it or something
like that...honestly not trying to troll or incite flame, you gather
enough of that, but last we spoke about incorporating g-cpan like
functionality into paludis on irc, it wasn't worth your time (choice
expletives were used). from the gist of that conversation, paludis was
not up to this job if the repository didn't fit some rather strict
guidelines.



- --

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:11:47 -0400 Michael Cummings
<mcummings@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:44:04 -0700 Donnie Berkholz
| > <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
| > | What would be more interesting is something like
| > | app-portage/g-cpan for various themes sites. This way, individual
| > | themes wouldn't need to get packaged and maintained.
| > 
| > If anyone's looking to experiment with this kind of thing... Paludis
| > supports multiple repository formats. We're already supporting CRAN,
| > and we might do CPAN, 
| 
| really? i thought you told me in irc we weren't worth it or something
| like that...honestly not trying to troll or incite flame, you gather
| enough of that, but last we spoke about incorporating g-cpan like
| functionality into paludis on irc, it wasn't worth your time (choice
| expletives were used). from the gist of that conversation, paludis was
| not up to this job if the repository didn't fit some rather strict
| guidelines.

You're missing context. There were a number of things that were being
considered for development 'right now', so to speak, and CPAN was
originally one of them. But because of CPAN's icky dependency handling
and conflicts with tree things, it's been moved to 'something we'll do
if we find someone who knows Paludis and CPAN and who is prepared to
stick in lots of effort'.

The biggie with CPAN is that it appears to be rather tricky to figure
out dependencies at dependency resolution time. With CRAN, for example,
dependencies are listed up front, so there's no problem or performance
issue making 'paludis --install --pretend some-cran-package' display a
full correct dep list. Getting this working with CPAN doesn't seem to
be a weekend job...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Danny van Dyk]

Am Samstag, 19. August 2006 04:11 schrieb Michael Cummings:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:44:04 -0700 Donnie Berkholz
> >
> > <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > | What would be more interesting is something like
> > | app-portage/g-cpan for various themes sites. This way, individual
> > | themes wouldn't need to get packaged and maintained.
> >
> > If anyone's looking to experiment with this kind of thing...
> > Paludis supports multiple repository formats. We're already
> > supporting CRAN, and we might do CPAN,

> really? i thought you told me in irc we weren't worth it or something
> like that...honestly not trying to troll or incite flame, you gather
> enough of that, but last we spoke about incorporating g-cpan like
> functionality into paludis on irc, it wasn't worth your time (choice
> expletives were used). from the gist of that conversation, paludis
> was not up to this job if the repository didn't fit some rather
> strict guidelines.
Actually, the conversation was more like:

 ciaran) What do we do next? CPAN? CTAN?
 kugelfang) let's ask mcummings for CPAN help. The deps can't be easily
            resolved iirc.
 mcummings) no other way, meta.yml isn't always there, and even
            g-cpan.pl needs several runs, and might even get the deps
            not correctly.
 ciaran) screw it then.
 kugelfang) CTAN? no deps at all.
 ciaran) screw it.

>From my POV those "screw it" were related to 'what do we do next', and 
not CPAN. Especially as CPAN wasn't the only option in consideration.

In regard to the to the 'strict guidelines' and 'paludis not up to the 
job'. We _could_ implement it, but none of the possible implementations 
is really elegant. We considered these possibilites:
* using an external repo, that autogenerates the dep information _after
  downloading all of CPAN_. (yes, that would be necessary)
* g-cpan mode of autogenerating the builds, where the distfiles need to 
be downloaded recursively at dep-resolution time.

Just to get the facts straight.

Danny
-- 
Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Jose Alberto Suarez Lopez]

I have another proposal... remove all themes from portage. We only need ebuild og gtk-engines and similar. Themes don't need a build system or are complex to install. Any user can go to www.X-theme.org watch the screenshot, download the theme  and install it.
We must mantain ebuild of themes that need a build system or complex operations (again gtk-engines).

I did it some similar with ebook-ebuilds. I removed all ebook-ebuild from portage and create an user script to download and install them.

Regards

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:12:24 +0200
Simon Toth <happy.cerberus@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I posted this to the bugzilla, but was redirected here, so:
> 
> INTRO:
> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
> named without any convention.
> 
> PROPOSAL:
> 1) create a new directory in portage root eye-candy [or similar]
> 2) move all theme packages in there
> 3) follow the naming convention: [application]-[type]-[name] (for gentoo
> cursors this would be x11-cursors-gentoo, or for kdm theme tux mania it
> would be kdm-theme-tuxmania)
> 4) keep original packages as meta packages with notice, that users
> should upgrade
> 
> -- 	
> Bc. Simon Toth
> www.fi.muni.cz/~xtoth1/
> 
> 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.-]

That wastes space.  Why would you want to install a theme several times
for each user when you can just install it once and have everyone use it?

Michael Sterrett
   -Mr. Bones.-
mr_bones_@gentoo.org


On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Jose Alberto Suarez Lopez wrote:

> I have another proposal... remove all themes from portage. We only need ebuild og gtk-engines and similar. Themes don't need a build system or are complex to install. Any user can go to www.X-theme.org watch the screenshot, download the theme  and install it.
> We must mantain ebuild of themes that need a build system or complex operations (again gtk-engines).
>
> I did it some similar with ebook-ebuilds. I removed all ebook-ebuild from portage and create an user script to download and install them.
>
> Regards
>
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:12:24 +0200
> Simon Toth <happy.cerberus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I posted this to the bugzilla, but was redirected here, so:
>>
>> INTRO:
>> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
>> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
>> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
>> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
>> named without any convention.
>>
>> PROPOSAL:
>> 1) create a new directory in portage root eye-candy [or similar]
>> 2) move all theme packages in there
>> 3) follow the naming convention: [application]-[type]-[name] (for gentoo
>> cursors this would be x11-cursors-gentoo, or for kdm theme tux mania it
>> would be kdm-theme-tuxmania)
>> 4) keep original packages as meta packages with notice, that users
>> should upgrade
>>
>> --
>> Bc. Simon Toth
>> www.fi.muni.cz/~xtoth1/
>>
>>
>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Jose Alberto Suarez Lopez]

A normal user doesn't install 50 themes, install maybe 5 themes?
about 100kb per theme? 500kb of waste space per user, not too much, now think how many kb wsate all the themes ebuilds, digest, etc and how much time it take to sync.


On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 02:11:00 -0400 (EDT)
"Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.-" <msterret@coat.com> wrote:

> That wastes space.  Why would you want to install a theme several times
> for each user when you can just install it once and have everyone use it?
> 
> Michael Sterrett
>    -Mr. Bones.-
> mr_bones_@gentoo.org
> 
> 
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Jose Alberto Suarez Lopez wrote:
> 
> > I have another proposal... remove all themes from portage. We only need ebuild og gtk-engines and similar. Themes don't need a build system or are complex to install. Any user can go to www.X-theme.org watch the screenshot, download the theme  and install it.
> > We must mantain ebuild of themes that need a build system or complex operations (again gtk-engines).
> >
> > I did it some similar with ebook-ebuilds. I removed all ebook-ebuild from portage and create an user script to download and install them.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:12:24 +0200
> > Simon Toth <happy.cerberus@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I posted this to the bugzilla, but was redirected here, so:
> >>
> >> INTRO:
> >> I have just a small proposal. There are many theme packages in portage,
> >> but many good are still missing, the problem I actually noticed when
> >> creating my own ebuild for comix cursors, is that there is really a mess
> >> in theme packages. They are both in media-gfx and x11-themes, they are
> >> named without any convention.
> >>
> >> PROPOSAL:
> >> 1) create a new directory in portage root eye-candy [or similar]
> >> 2) move all theme packages in there
> >> 3) follow the naming convention: [application]-[type]-[name] (for gentoo
> >> cursors this would be x11-cursors-gentoo, or for kdm theme tux mania it
> >> would be kdm-theme-tuxmania)
> >> 4) keep original packages as meta packages with notice, that users
> >> should upgrade
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bc. Simon Toth
> >> www.fi.muni.cz/~xtoth1/
> >>
> >>
> >
> -- 
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Proposal for cleaning portage a bit (themes and other eyecandy stuff)

[Nguyễn Thái Ngọc Duy]

On 8/21/06, Jose Alberto Suarez Lopez <bass@gentoo.org> wrote:
> A normal user doesn't install 50 themes, install maybe 5 themes?
> about 100kb per theme? 500kb of waste space per user, not too much, now think how many kb wsate all the themes ebuilds, digest, etc and how much time it take to sync.
I still want some system-wide themes (think about lock-down desktop).
A g-cpan for themes with a separate theme metadata repository might
save some the tree space.
-- 
Duy
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