Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for August

Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for August

[Matthew Marlowe]

> iWho knows, maybe its worth finding another bug database
> app, or even be crazy and write our own for a long term solution.
>

If we could get a license donated, my vote would be to switch to Atlassian 
Jira, http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira.   It seems to be gaining 
mindshare rather quickly, and the company I work for just shelled out $2,400 
because they liked it so much more than RT/Bugzilla. I believe it supports 
multiple DB backends, including all the usual suspects.  

MattM
-- 
Matthew Marlowe (mattm@gentoo.org)
 Yahoo IM: deploylinuxconsulting
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Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla (was: "Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for August")

[Peter Gordon]

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Matthew Marlowe wrote:
> If we could get a license donated, my vote would be to switch to Atlassian 
> Jira, http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira.   It seems to be gaining 
> mindshare rather quickly, and the company I work for just shelled out $2,400 
> because they liked it so much more than RT/Bugzilla. I believe it supports 
> multiple DB backends, including all the usual suspects.  

Maybe it's just me, but I think that having such a core component of the
distribution be proprietary is in complete violation of Gentoo's Social
Contract[1] (if not the letter of it, then its spirit of openness). It
states:
	
	"Gentoo will never never depend upon a piece of software or
	metadata unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License,
	the GNU Lesser General Public License, the Creative Commons -
	Attribution/Share Alike or some other license approved by the
	Open Source Initiative (OSI)."

Isn't this one of the driving reasons why our forums run phpBB instead
of something like vBulletin, for example? :)

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint:
  DD68 A414 56BD 6368 D957 9666 4268 CB7A FFC1 9479
My Blog: http://thecodergeek.com/blog/


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Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla (was: "Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for August")

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:30:03 -0700 Peter Gordon
<codergeek42@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Maybe it's just me, but I think that having such a core component of
| the distribution be proprietary is in complete violation of Gentoo's
| Social Contract[1] (if not the letter of it, then its spirit of
| openness). It states:
| 	
| 	"Gentoo will never never depend upon a piece of software or
| 	metadata unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License,
| 	the GNU Lesser General Public License, the Creative Commons -
| 	Attribution/Share Alike or some other license approved by the
| 	Open Source Initiative (OSI)."
| 
| Isn't this one of the driving reasons why our forums run phpBB instead
| of something like vBulletin, for example? :)

In the past, it's been more or less agreed that it's not depending
upon it if it uses an open data format... There was talk of moving the
forums to proprietary software at one point, for example.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Peter Gordon]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> In the past, it's been more or less agreed that it's not depending
> upon it if it uses an open data format... There was talk of moving the
> forums to proprietary software at one point, for example.

I see. Thanks for the clarification, Ciaran. (Though as an aside,
I'd like to mention that it'd still be a bad idea to do so. :P)
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint:
  DD68 A414 56BD 6368 D957 9666 4268 CB7A FFC1 9479
My Blog: http://thecodergeek.com/blog/


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Lance Albertson]

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Peter Gordon wrote:
> Matthew Marlowe wrote:
>> If we could get a license donated, my vote would be to switch to Atlassian 
>> Jira, http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira.   It seems to be gaining 
>> mindshare rather quickly, and the company I work for just shelled out $2,400 
>> because they liked it so much more than RT/Bugzilla. I believe it supports 
>> multiple DB backends, including all the usual suspects.  
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I think that having such a core component of the
> distribution be proprietary is in complete violation of Gentoo's Social
> Contract[1] (if not the letter of it, then its spirit of openness). It
> states:
> 	
> 	"Gentoo will never never depend upon a piece of software or
> 	metadata unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License,
> 	the GNU Lesser General Public License, the Creative Commons -
> 	Attribution/Share Alike or some other license approved by the
> 	Open Source Initiative (OSI)."
> 
> Isn't this one of the driving reasons why our forums run phpBB instead
> of something like vBulletin, for example? :)
> 
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml

I'm not entirely sure if this is directed towards the supporting web
applications or of Gentoo itself. To me its directed towards the meta
distribution and not any of the underlying support mechanisms of Gentoo.
 If we were to use some non-gpl webapp, the underlying Gentoo system you
run does not depend on a non-gpl piece of software. A bug tracking
system is not an underlying component of Gentoo. Its just a tool that
helps with development of Gentoo.

But anyways, some people view it in the strict sense and they're
entitled to it. That's just how I view it when I read it. Its a bit
vague on what Gentoo really is. Is it talking only about the meta
distribution? Or that plus the underlying supporting systems that help
run Gentoo?

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
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ramereth/irc.freenode.net


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Luis Francisco Araujo]

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Hash: SHA1

Lance Albertson wrote:
> Peter Gordon wrote:
>> Matthew Marlowe wrote:
>>> If we could get a license donated, my vote would be to switch to Atlassian 
>>> Jira, http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira.   It seems to be gaining 
>>> mindshare rather quickly, and the company I work for just shelled out $2,400 
>>> because they liked it so much more than RT/Bugzilla. I believe it supports 
>>> multiple DB backends, including all the usual suspects.  
>> Maybe it's just me, but I think that having such a core component of the
>> distribution be proprietary is in complete violation of Gentoo's Social
>> Contract[1] (if not the letter of it, then its spirit of openness). It
>> states:
>> 	
>> 	"Gentoo will never never depend upon a piece of software or
>> 	metadata unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License,
>> 	the GNU Lesser General Public License, the Creative Commons -
>> 	Attribution/Share Alike or some other license approved by the
>> 	Open Source Initiative (OSI)."
>>
>> Isn't this one of the driving reasons why our forums run phpBB instead
>> of something like vBulletin, for example? :)
>>
>> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml
> 
> I'm not entirely sure if this is directed towards the supporting web
> applications or of Gentoo itself. To me its directed towards the meta
> distribution and not any of the underlying support mechanisms of Gentoo.
>  If we were to use some non-gpl webapp, the underlying Gentoo system you
> run does not depend on a non-gpl piece of software. A bug tracking
> system is not an underlying component of Gentoo. Its just a tool that
> helps with development of Gentoo.
> 
> But anyways, some people view it in the strict sense and they're
> entitled to it. That's just how I view it when I read it. Its a bit
> vague on what Gentoo really is. Is it talking only about the meta
> distribution? Or that plus the underlying supporting systems that help
> run Gentoo?
> 

I think it is perfectly valid we use this kind of tools for development;
as far as i know, our SC refers to those components (in form of software
and metadata) to be free software upon which a user depend to build a
Gentoo system, and this isn't one of those components. Though i admit it
might bring some kind of 'controversy' .

/me remenbers bitkeeper

- --


Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org"
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Peter Gordon]

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Luis Francisco Araujo wrote:
> I think it is perfectly valid we use this kind of tools for development;
> as far as i know, our SC refers to those components (in form of software
> and metadata) to be free software upon which a user depend to build a
> Gentoo system, and this isn't one of those components. Though i admit it
> might bring some kind of 'controversy' .

I've got no problem with people wanting to actively use proprietary
software instead of F/OSS alternatives because of much better features,
security record, etc. (Here's where that phpBB vs vBulletin example
comes to mind again.) Heck, it's their choice, right? My quarrel is with
the fact that this would be the designated tool for full development
usage and whatnot.

However, I don't believe that Bugzilla is such a separate entity from
the distribution as a whole. I, for one, would simply stop reporting
bugs there if it was switched to a proprietary bug-tracking tool. Now,
one could say that this isn't much of a problem (since it's all entirely
voluntary, right?); but think of this on a grander scale of other F/OSS
advocates: you would have much less community involvement.

One of the core foundations, as I see it, of a community-driven Linux
distribution such as Gentoo is exactly that: the community. Bugzilla
provides a reasonably-somewhat-sane infrastructure to keep track of the
various bugs, issues, and feature requests being put forth by its users
and is one of the primary methods of communication between the user and
developer camps.

Regards.
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint:
  DD68 A414 56BD 6368 D957 9666 4268 CB7A FFC1 9479
My Blog: http://thecodergeek.com/blog/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 01:32:50AM -0700, Peter Gordon wrote:
> However, I don't believe that Bugzilla is such a separate entity from
> the distribution as a whole. I, for one, would simply stop reporting
> bugs there if it was switched to a proprietary bug-tracking tool. Now,
> one could say that this isn't much of a problem (since it's all entirely
> voluntary, right?); but think of this on a grander scale of other F/OSS
> advocates: you would have much less community involvement.

Wasn't there Ubuntu's meta-bugtracker that runs on some proprietary
stuff which didn't get too much love because of it?

While i share the view that the social contract doesn't stop us from
using proprietary software, it sure is a great to prove to people that
we are able to run web servers, rsync mirrors, support forums, bug
tracker, blogs and lots of other stuff with free software and do not
require the help of some closed software. That's just a great way to
show this stuff actually works even outside some long haired hippie
students apartment. ;-)

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Matthew Marlowe]

> > In the past, it's been more or less agreed that it's not depending
> > upon it if it uses an open data format... There was talk of moving the
> > forums to proprietary software at one point, for example.
>
> I see. Thanks for the clarification, Ciaran. (Though as an aside,
> I'd like to mention that it'd still be a bad idea to do so. :P)

I think my reply from a non-dev email address got eaten, so I'll reply again:

1) Jira can produce automated backups/exports of the database in XML format, 
which means we can always write a tool to convert the data to a format 
acceptable to any other bug mngmt software anytime we want.

2) It imports from bugzilla

3) Free license and apparently even some free support and infrastructure 
management for open-source projects.  Apparently, they donated one of the bug 
db's that the apache software foundation is using, for instance. 

See:
http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/pricing.jsp#nonprofit
http://opensource.atlassian.com/

4) There is some nice functionality to integrate with cvs, subversion, etc if 
we ever find a use for that.

However, I was just throwing out the jira stuff as an idea and my 2 cents 
given the concerns about bugzilla.   The current db running on myisam table 
format is rather scary, given gentoo's size. 

MattM
-- 
Matthew Marlowe (mattm@gentoo.org)
 Yahoo IM: deploylinuxconsulting
       Tel: 805-857-9144    
          Oak Park, CA

"All of a sudden, Larry the cow was 
 in control. And, he liked it"
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Jakub Moc]

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Matthew Marlowe wrote:
> 3) Free license and apparently even some free support and infrastructure 
> management for open-source projects.  Apparently, they donated one of the bug 
> db's that the apache software foundation is using, for instance. 

Free as in - BitKeeper? :P Nah, no need to repeat past mistakes, seriously.


-- 

jakub


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's Social Contract & Bugzilla

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:29:05 +0200 Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Matthew Marlowe wrote:
| > 3) Free license and apparently even some free support and
| > infrastructure management for open-source projects.  Apparently,
| > they donated one of the bug db's that the apache software
| > foundation is using, for instance. 
| 
| Free as in - BitKeeper? :P Nah, no need to repeat past mistakes,
| seriously.

No, Bitkeeper didn't have an easy way of getting all of the data out.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail            : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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