[gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Stefan Schweizer]

Hi,

today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal. They are
outdated and no longer needed on current systems:

-apm - only very old notebooks use apm
-foomaticdb - foomaticdb is only used for development foomatic xml files.
SInce most of our users do not develop printer drivers I suggest
making "ppds" a default use flag instead.

-fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?
-imlib - imlib depends on gtk-1, which imo should not be installed in a
default gentoo installation - there should be no legacy depends for a plain
emerge kde.

-motif - is unmaintained in portage and rather outdated, does not look good.
Should not be default for optional interfaces
-oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by alsa in
most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed
-xmms - xmms depends on gtk-1 and has been superseeded by audacious/bmpx


I would like to make the changes in a new 2006.1 profile, how do I go about
that? I think the current profiles should not be touched, since some users
may still be using the flags.

Any comments/objections - any outdated useflags I forgot?
Have a look at /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2006.0/make.defaults
for the list of current default use flags.

Regards,
Stefan

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Patrick McLean]

Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?
I am not on the toolchain team, but I _think_ the reason this is on by
default is because fortran is considered part of a standard gcc
installation (by upstream, etc).
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 12:16, Patrick McLean wrote:
> Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?
>
> I am not on the toolchain team, but I _think_ the reason this is on by
> default is because fortran is considered part of a standard gcc
> installation (by upstream, etc).

pretty much ... fortran is expected to be part of the default build thus it is

i personally disable fortran on all my machines though ;)
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Grant Goodyear]

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Stefan Schweizer wrote: [Mon Jun 05 2006, 11:03:57AM CDT]
> -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?

Although outdated, there are still a lot of applications that use it.
More importantly, there are a lot of well-tested numerical libraries
that exist in fortran that really aren't worth porting to another
language, so a lot of stuff in our tree still requires a fortran
compiler.  (I don't have good statistics on exactly how much of the tree
does, however, so if somebody wants to compile some....)  Until
use-based dependencies arrive, I think it's still required.

> -motif - is unmaintained in portage and rather outdated, does not look good.
> Should not be default for optional interfaces

I believe that flag is mainly there to reduce the "Hey, my xpdf package
lacks the xpdf binary" bugs.

-g2boojum-
-- 
Grant Goodyear	
Gentoo Developer
g2boojum@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0  9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Harald van Dijk]

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 06:03:57PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal. They are
> outdated and no longer needed on current systems:
> 
> -imlib - imlib depends on gtk-1, which imo should not be installed in a
> default gentoo installation - there should be no legacy depends for a plain
> emerge kde.

I see imlib doesn't forcibly depend on gtk1 in the 1.9.15 version. It's
been in the tree for a year, but never unmasked apparently. Maybe that
would be a better idea than removing this flag as a default? (Honest
question, I'm not sure.)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 18:03, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> I would like to make the changes in a new 2006.1 profile, how do I go about
> that? I think the current profiles should not be touched, since some users
> may still be using the flags.

Yes, 2006.1.

> Any comments/objections - any outdated useflags I forgot?
> Have a look at /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2006.0/make.defaults
> for the list of current default use flags.

I think gtk2 should be finally removed¹ from all packages and from 
make.defaults as well, before the 2006.1 release. Maintainers, who explicitly 
want to allow building against using Gtk 1, should default their ebuilds to 
Gtk 2 and add a (local) gtk1 use flag instead.

Is there a good reason, why mikmod is a enabled by default?


[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=106560


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Harald van Dijk]

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 06:59:22PM +0200, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> > Any comments/objections - any outdated useflags I forgot?
> > Have a look at /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2006.0/make.defaults
> > for the list of current default use flags.
> 
> I think gtk2 should be finally removed¹ from all packages and from 
> make.defaults as well, before the 2006.1 release. Maintainers, who explicitly 
> want to allow building against using Gtk 1, should default their ebuilds to 
> Gtk 2 and add a (local) gtk1 use flag instead.

No, the decision with the gtk/gtk2 USE flag mess was to have package
maintainers decide for each ebuild whether to support only gtk1 or only
gtk2, but not have support for both in a single ebuild. The decision
before that (and one with more support, IIRC) was to have one flag for
gtk1, and one flag for gtk2. But what you're proposing now is getting
back to the old mess, except defaulting to gtk2 instead of gtk1. That
not only doesn't fix anything, but even says that gtk1 support was
removed from a bunch of ebuilds for no benefit whatsoever. Please don't
do that.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 20:08, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> No, the decision with the gtk/gtk2 USE flag mess was to have package
> maintainers decide for each ebuild whether to support only gtk1 or only
> gtk2, but not have support for both in a single ebuild.

I know about the decision of the Gnome team, but there also was a thread with 
maintainers refusing to remove optional gtk1|2 support, if I recall 
correctly. Personally I couldn't care less, as long as the gtk2 flag is 
history.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Andrew Muraco]

Carsten Lohrke wrote:

>On Monday 05 June 2006 20:08, Harald van Dijk wrote:
>  
>
>>No, the decision with the gtk/gtk2 USE flag mess was to have package
>>maintainers decide for each ebuild whether to support only gtk1 or only
>>gtk2, but not have support for both in a single ebuild.
>>    
>>
>
>I know about the decision of the Gnome team, but there also was a thread with 
>maintainers refusing to remove optional gtk1|2 support, if I recall 
>correctly. Personally I couldn't care less, as long as the gtk2 flag is 
>history.
>  
>
Sorry for the offtopic of this, but what would a user set as the 
useflags to have GTK-2 used by default, and GTK-1 for apps that only 
support it? (but not build GTK-2-capable apps with GTK-1)

Just wondering, because I know that gmplayer is from the mplayer 
package's gtk flag.. its gtk-1 so its not the optimal, but since i don't 
know of a gtk2 version (i do have kmplayer tho.. so its sorta a moot 
point for me.. i think its time i clean my install..)

Anyways, I agree that some of the defaults are a bit more liberal then i 
would perfer, but hey, i can change anything i want (thats the power of 
gentoo)

Thanks,
Andrew
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 04:45, Andrew Muraco wrote:
> Sorry for the offtopic of this, but what would a user set as the
> useflags to have GTK-2 used by default, and GTK-1 for apps that only
> support it? (but not build GTK-2-capable apps with GTK-1)

Just the gtk use flag.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[George Shapovalov]

Monday, 5. June 2006 18:03, Stefan Schweizer Ви написали:
> -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?
Which one, Fortran-99 or Fortran-2006? ;)
(Well, Ok, gfortran in gcc does not do 2006 yet, but still..)

On the usage side: if you do that (i.e. remove it) you will be amazed by how 
many packages need it and how many users will cry foul because some 
dependency of their favorite app requires Fortran and now they have to 
rebuild gcc (or they even have no idea where to get Fortran from; yea, that 
happened too). It is for this precise reason that this useflag was *added* to 
default profiles not so long ago (well, about two years now :)). And this is 
like the 3rd time somebody wants to rip it off, just because "this is some 
kind of outdated language" ;).
Can we please leave it alone finally? Pretty please? :).

George

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> I would like to make the changes in a new 2006.1 profile, how do I go about
> that? I think the current profiles should not be touched, since some users
> may still be using the flags.

Considering most architectures already have a 2006.1 profile in
development, you talk with Release Engineering or the arch teams to get
the profile changes made.

> Any comments/objections - any outdated useflags I forgot?

Yeah.  Don't touch the x86 2006.1 profiles.

Once the merit of removing/adding any flags has been discussed here,
I'll make the changes to the development 2006.1 profile for x86.

> Have a look at /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2006.0/make.defaults
> for the list of current default use flags.

No.

Have a look
at /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/dev/2006.1/desktop/make.defaults for the list of what will be the default USE flags.

Please be sure to actually talk to the teams in question before making
such requests as this in the future.  It really helps if you work with
the teams rather than going all rogue with this stuff.

Thanks,

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 20:52, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > Have a look at
> > /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2006.0/make.defaults for the list
> > of current default use flags.

I think it's a bad idea to have win32codecs in make.defaults. There's quite a 
number of codecs in the package and I'm not so sure, that we even notice, 
when there are any vulnerable ones. Also the licensening and distribution 
question is everything else than clear.


btw.: We don't even have a avi use flag in the tree anymore.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:57 +0200, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Monday 05 June 2006 20:52, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > Have a look at
> > > /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/2006.0/make.defaults for the list
> > > of current default use flags.
> 
> I think it's a bad idea to have win32codecs in make.defaults. There's quite a 
> number of codecs in the package and I'm not so sure, that we even notice, 
> when there are any vulnerable ones. Also the licensening and distribution 
> question is everything else than clear.

Well, it doesn't affect stages, and GRP stuff is done w/ USE=bindist, so
again, this is a non-issue.

> btw.: We don't even have a avi use flag in the tree anymore.

Again, I haven't been in the habit of removing anything I haven't seen a
bug about.  I'll remove avi now.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 23:25, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Well, it doesn't affect stages, and GRP stuff is done w/ USE=bindist, so
> again, this is a non-issue.

Well, I didn't mean our binary releases, but being held liable for making 
property of others available by default, without the permission to do so. 
Probably not the point, though, since if this argument would be tested, it 
would already suffice, that the ebuilds are in Portage. My main point is the 
security status anyways. I don't think we can ensure, that we'll catch known 
vulnerabilitis for these codecs. I strongly suggest to remove the use flag.


> Again, I haven't been in the habit of removing anything I haven't seen a
> bug about.  I'll remove avi now.

Wasn't a reproach (in case you took it for that). Just noticed it.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 07:03:57PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal. They are
> outdated and no longer needed on current systems:

What do you want to remove, the use flags themselves or just turn them
off in the profiles?

> -xmms - xmms depends on gtk-1 and has been superseeded by audacious/bmpx

xmms is still in the tree? People (ok, at least me ;-) ) still use it?
I don't mind if it has to go and there are alternatives, but why would
you just want to remove its use flag and not the package itself? 
If it needs to go, either dump all of it or nothing.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Luis Medinas]

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:22 +0200, Wernfried Haas wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 07:03:57PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal. They are
> > outdated and no longer needed on current systems:
> 
> What do you want to remove, the use flags themselves or just turn them
> off in the profiles?
> 
> > -xmms - xmms depends on gtk-1 and has been superseeded by audacious/bmpx
> 
> xmms is still in the tree? People (ok, at least me ;-) ) still use it?
> I don't mind if it has to go and there are alternatives, but why would
> you just want to remove its use flag and not the package itself? 
> If it needs to go, either dump all of it or nothing.
> 
Xmms will be removed soon... Lot's of users still use xmms mostly
because it has many plugins that others don't. Xmms is still stable but
the upstream is dead so it won't take our patchset. In the end of this
year i would like to remove xmms and all plugins but before i need to
prepare users for this changes and clean some maintainer-wanted bugs for
plugins.



-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 09:58:46PM +0100, Luis Medinas wrote:
> > xmms is still in the tree? People (ok, at least me ;-) ) still use it?
> > I don't mind if it has to go and there are alternatives, but why would
> > you just want to remove its use flag and not the package itself? 
> > If it needs to go, either dump all of it or nothing.
> > 
> Xmms will be removed soon... Lot's of users still use xmms mostly
> because it has many plugins that others don't. Xmms is still stable but
> the upstream is dead so it won't take our patchset. In the end of this
> year i would like to remove xmms and all plugins but before i need to
> prepare users for this changes and clean some maintainer-wanted bugs for
> plugins.

I see, in that case it does make sense to remove the use flag at some
point, too. Thanks for clearing it up.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 08:58:46PM +0100, Luis Medinas wrote:
> Xmms will be removed soon... Lot's of users still use xmms mostly
> because it has many plugins that others don't. Xmms is still stable but
> the upstream is dead so it won't take our patchset. In the end of this
> year i would like to remove xmms and all plugins but before i need to
> prepare users for this changes and clean some maintainer-wanted bugs for
> plugins.
Provide migration options for the plugins - some of the code is out
there, it's not in the tree yet, three that I actively use are xosd (the
XMMS plugin is with the xosd package), xmms-realrandom and
xmms-morestate.

There are SUSE rpms for audacious-xosd, but I haven't found the SRPM or
other source anywhere.

In the past, the base xmms plugins were all split to be seperate
packages, could something similar happen with audacious?

It is possible to reduce some of the memory overhead? Comparing a clean
start of xmms to a clean start of audacious with my playlist takes twice
as much virt space, and 50% more resident memory - long term the numbers
look even worse for audacious.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Luis Medinas]

On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 01:30 -0700, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 08:58:46PM +0100, Luis Medinas wrote:
> > Xmms will be removed soon... Lot's of users still use xmms mostly
> > because it has many plugins that others don't. Xmms is still stable but
> > the upstream is dead so it won't take our patchset. In the end of this
> > year i would like to remove xmms and all plugins but before i need to
> > prepare users for this changes and clean some maintainer-wanted bugs for
> > plugins.
> Provide migration options for the plugins - some of the code is out
> there, it's not in the tree yet, three that I actively use are xosd (the
> XMMS plugin is with the xosd package), xmms-realrandom and
> xmms-morestate.
> 
> There are SUSE rpms for audacious-xosd, but I haven't found the SRPM or
> other source anywhere.
> 
Yes we will provide migrations to the plugins. Audacious is currently
the only player on the tree that supports xmms plugins. Maybe it's time
to develop some plugins or start packaging.

> In the past, the base xmms plugins were all split to be seperate
> packages, could something similar happen with audacious?
> 
> It is possible to reduce some of the memory overhead? Comparing a clean
> start of xmms to a clean start of audacious with my playlist takes twice
> as much virt space, and 50% more resident memory - long term the numbers
> look even worse for audacious.
> 
Ask Audacious upstream but since it's build with gtk+-2 you can find it
a little bit slower.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 15:58, Luis Medinas wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:22 +0200, Wernfried Haas wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 07:03:57PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > > today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal. They
> > > are outdated and no longer needed on current systems:
> >
> > What do you want to remove, the use flags themselves or just turn them
> > off in the profiles?
> >
> > > -xmms - xmms depends on gtk-1 and has been superseeded by
> > > audacious/bmpx
> >
> > xmms is still in the tree? People (ok, at least me ;-) ) still use it?
> > I don't mind if it has to go and there are alternatives, but why would
> > you just want to remove its use flag and not the package itself?
> > If it needs to go, either dump all of it or nothing.
>
> Xmms will be removed soon... Lot's of users still use xmms mostly
> because it has many plugins that others don't. Xmms is still stable but
> the upstream is dead so it won't take our patchset. In the end of this
> year i would like to remove xmms and all plugins but before i need to
> prepare users for this changes and clean some maintainer-wanted bugs for
> plugins.

i think removing xmms is inappropriate at this time or in the near future
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> -foomaticdb - foomaticdb is only used for development foomatic xml files.
> SInce most of our users do not develop printer drivers I suggest
> making "ppds" a default use flag instead.

Should we have ppds in the 2006.1 profile, or 2006.1/desktop?

> -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by alsa in
> most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed

There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
that I maintain require OSS capabilities.

As for the others, they all seem reasonable.  I've removed them from the
main "USE" cluster in the x86/dev/2006.1/desktop profile, and into a
separate grouping, so they can be easily removed, if that ends up being
the decision.

So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
(apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)

I won't, of course, do this retroactively, just for the 2006.1 and
higher profiles.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Stefan Schweizer]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
>> -foomaticdb - foomaticdb is only used for development foomatic xml files.
>> SInce most of our users do not develop printer drivers I suggest
>> making "ppds" a default use flag instead.
> 
> Should we have ppds in the 2006.1 profile, or 2006.1/desktop?

printers are not only used on desktops, add it in "profile" please.
> 
>> -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by alsa
>> in most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed
> 
> There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
> only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
> definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
> that I maintain require OSS capabilities.

but they do not require an oss use flag. The point of removing this flag is
to remove "optional" oss support. 
Have a look at http://gentoo-portage.com/Search?search=&use=oss for the
useage of this flag.
And for your games argument. The games ebuilds from the above list I have
looked at, provide both the "alsa" and the "oss" use flag, as do most
really.

It is not about removing OSS emulation, it is about removing duplicated
backends.


> 
> So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
> (apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)

foomaticdb is missing here, I hope you will not forget it

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 04:10 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
> > only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
> > definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
> > that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> 
> but they do not require an oss use flag. The point of removing this flag is
> to remove "optional" oss support.

Umm... you don't know what you're talking about.  The "optional" OSS
support is in ALSA.  The packages have required OSS for sound support.

> Have a look at http://gentoo-portage.com/Search?search=&use=oss for the
> useage of this flag.

I know what the flag is used for, and I'm not removing it.

> And for your games argument. The games ebuilds from the above list I have
> looked at, provide both the "alsa" and the "oss" use flag, as do most
> really.

Do you even know what you're talking about?  Have you tried Quake 3?
Enemy Territory?  Have you noticed that they don't have sound, at all,
without OSS emulation?  You do know how OSS emulation is turned on,
correct?

Please do me a favor and quit wasting my time and yours trying to tell
me what the packages that I maintain support.

> It is not about removing OSS emulation, it is about removing duplicated
> backends.

You're simply wrong.

> > So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
> > (apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)
> 
> foomaticdb is missing here, I hope you will not forget it

It isn't the the desktop profile.  It was in the 2006.1 profile, which
is desktop's parent.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Doug Goldstein]

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 04:10 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
>>> There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
>>> only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
>>> definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
>>> that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
>> but they do not require an oss use flag. The point of removing this flag is
>> to remove "optional" oss support.
> 
> Umm... you don't know what you're talking about.  The "optional" OSS
> support is in ALSA.  The packages have required OSS for sound support.
> 
>> Have a look at http://gentoo-portage.com/Search?search=&use=oss for the
>> useage of this flag.
> 
> I know what the flag is used for, and I'm not removing it.
> 
>> And for your games argument. The games ebuilds from the above list I have
>> looked at, provide both the "alsa" and the "oss" use flag, as do most
>> really.
> 
> Do you even know what you're talking about?  Have you tried Quake 3?
> Enemy Territory?  Have you noticed that they don't have sound, at all,
> without OSS emulation?  You do know how OSS emulation is turned on,
> correct?
> 
> Please do me a favor and quit wasting my time and yours trying to tell
> me what the packages that I maintain support.
> 
>> It is not about removing OSS emulation, it is about removing duplicated
>> backends.
> 
> You're simply wrong.
> 
>>> So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
>>> (apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)
>> foomaticdb is missing here, I hope you will not forget it
> 
> It isn't the the desktop profile.  It was in the 2006.1 profile, which
> is desktop's parent.
> 

I think this is a perfect time to point out the past discussions about
trying to be polite to fellow developers and the community at large.
There's no reason to try to constantly point out "you're an idiot and
I'm so great. I wield the power!"

Stefan made suggestions in good intentions. Lot's of us have the same
suggestions, however he actually had the initiative to bring them up and
offer to help fix them based on what was decided upon. Every step along
the way you've tried to bash him and highlight your greatness. Get down
off your pedestal... we're all developers here. All contributing to the
greater good. Accept the help and move on.

-- 
Doug Goldstein <cardoe@gentoo.org>
http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Doty]

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[snip]
Lets keep this friendly.  Obviously genstef was mistaken about the oss
use flag.  He's not trying to break any of your packages.

- --
=======================================================
Mike Doty                      kingtaco -at- gentoo.org
Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead
Gentoo Developer Relations
Gentoo Recruitment Lead
Gentoo Infrastructure
GPG: 0094 7F06 913E 78D6 F1BB  06BA D0AD D125 A797 C7A7
=======================================================
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-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.-]

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
> (apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)

removing mikmod would probably make things ugly for games as well.
A lot of games need mikmod support compiled into sdl-mixer in order to
function correctly.  Some games fail in pkg_setup if sdl-mixer isn't built
with mikmod but I'm not sure if we've added the built_with_use check to
all of the games that need it yet.

Michael Sterrett
   -Mr. Bones.-
mr_bones_@gentoo.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 04:11, Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.- wrote:
> Some games fail in pkg_setup if sdl-mixer isn't built
> with mikmod but I'm not sure if we've added the built_with_use check to
> all of the games that need it yet.

Time to fix this. And removing the flag would help, as bugs would be filed.


Carsten



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 21:23, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by alsa
> > in most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed
>
> There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
> only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
> definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
> that I maintain require OSS capabilities.

do we really need the USE flag though ?  i was under the impression that you 
need to enable the OSS compat layer in the kernel and that's enough ... and 
the USE flag doesnt affect kernel build options ...

> As for the others, they all seem reasonable.  I've removed them from the
> main "USE" cluster in the x86/dev/2006.1/desktop profile, and into a
> separate grouping, so they can be easily removed, if that ends up being
> the decision.

umm, add back in fortran there bub

> So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
> (apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)

mikmod is the only one i'd keep ... people generally want mikmod whether or 
not they know it ;)
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Harald van Dijk]

On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 12:07:42AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 05 June 2006 21:23, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > > -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by alsa
> > > in most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed
> >
> > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
> > only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
> > definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
> > that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> 
> do we really need the USE flag though ?  i was under the impression that you 
> need to enable the OSS compat layer in the kernel and that's enough ... and 
> the USE flag doesnt affect kernel build options ...

It depends on whether you use the kernel drivers or the alsa-driver
package, I think.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 01:31, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 12:07:42AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Monday 05 June 2006 21:23, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > > > -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by
> > > > alsa in most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed
> > >
> > > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but
> > > work only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it
> > > would definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the
> > > packages that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> >
> > do we really need the USE flag though ?  i was under the impression that
> > you need to enable the OSS compat layer in the kernel and that's enough
> > ... and the USE flag doesnt affect kernel build options ...
>
> It depends on whether you use the kernel drivers or the alsa-driver
> package, I think.

you dont use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels and the 2006.1 profiles are 2.6 
based
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Harald van Dijk]

On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 01:48:37AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 June 2006 01:31, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 12:07:42AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > On Monday 05 June 2006 21:23, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > > > > -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded by
> > > > > alsa in most current installs, a default use flag is no longer needed
> > > >
> > > > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but
> > > > work only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it
> > > > would definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the
> > > > packages that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> > >
> > > do we really need the USE flag though ?  i was under the impression that
> > > you need to enable the OSS compat layer in the kernel and that's enough
> > > ... and the USE flag doesnt affect kernel build options ...
> >
> > It depends on whether you use the kernel drivers or the alsa-driver
> > package, I think.
> 
> you dont use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels and the 2006.1 profiles are 2.6 
> based

You can use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[John Myers]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 23:13, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 01:48:37AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday 06 June 2006 01:31, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 12:07:42AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > > On Monday 05 June 2006 21:23, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 18:03 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > > > > > -oss - oss is a legacy audio interface that has been superseeded
> > > > > > by alsa in most current installs, a default use flag is no longer
> > > > > > needed
> > > > >
> > > > > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but
> > > > > work only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and
> > > > > it would definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of
> > > > > the packages that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> > > >
> > > > do we really need the USE flag though ?  i was under the impression
> > > > that you need to enable the OSS compat layer in the kernel and that's
> > > > enough ... and the USE flag doesnt affect kernel build options ...
> > >
> > > It depends on whether you use the kernel drivers or the alsa-driver
> > > package, I think.
> >
> > you dont use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels and the 2006.1 profiles are 2.6
> > based
>
> You can use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels.
I use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels. I forget exactly why (this was almost two 
years ago), but I actually switched _away_ from the in-kernel-tree drivers to 
alsa-driver for some particular reason.

I have the oss useflag turned off, and then turned back on for alsa-driver in 
package.use.
-- 
# 
# electronerd, the electronerdian from electronerdia
#

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 08:34, John Myers wrote:
> I use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels. I forget exactly why (this was almost
> two years ago), but I actually switched _away_ from the in-kernel-tree
> drivers to alsa-driver for some particular reason.
There are a few issues with in-kernel driver when they are not in-sync with 
the userland, ALSA does not assure compatibility between versions.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 02:13, Harald van Dijk wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 01:48:37AM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > you dont use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels and the 2006.1 profiles are 2.6
> > based
>
> You can use alsa-driver with 2.6 kernels.

ok, but imho that's enough of a use case to warrant oss by default
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 06:07, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> mikmod is the only one i'd keep ... people generally want mikmod whether or
> not they know it ;)

I'd say 99,9% don't want mikmod. Arguments please, not vague assertions. :)


Carsten 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 11:17, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> I'd say 99,9% don't want mikmod. Arguments please, not vague assertions. :)
SDL based games requires mikmod quite often. I suppose Mike knows what he's 
saying.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Tuesday 06 June 2006 11:25, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> SDL based games requires mikmod quite often. I suppose Mike knows what he's
> saying.

It's a difference to know that, compared to share ones thoughts, which Mike 
missed to do.


Carsten

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 00:07 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but work
> > only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it would
> > definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the packages
> > that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> 
> do we really need the USE flag though ?  i was under the impression that you 
> need to enable the OSS compat layer in the kernel and that's enough ... and 
> the USE flag doesnt affect kernel build options ...

Only if you use the in-kernel ALSA.  If you use the external
alsa-driver, then the OSS support is controlled by the USE flag.

> umm, add back in fortran there bub

I never touched it.  It's in default-linux, not in my profile.

> > So does anyone have any objections to the others being removed?
> > (apm imlib mikmod motif xmms)
> 
> mikmod is the only one i'd keep ... people generally want mikmod whether or 
> not they know it ;)

I was wondering if we should keep it.  There are quite a few packages
that we know of that require it to be built into sdl-mixer, but I think
we're currently masking a lot of the bugs in the ebuilds because it is
set as default.  At any rate, I've added it back to the "keep" pile.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Thomas de Grenier de Latour]

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:23:58 -0400,
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but
> work only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it
> would definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the
> packages that I maintain require OSS capabilities.

I think the problem is that the "oss" flag is used for (at least) two
slighlty different things:
 - in alsa-driver, it adds OSS capabilities. That's something most
people want, and should be enable by default.
 - in most (all?) other packages, it enables optionnal OSS output.
That's something most people don't use and don't wan't enabled by
default.

Imho, when there is no "good" global value for a flag, it means it
shouldn't be a single global flag (at least, until there is some 
kind of per-package defaults support in Portage).  So, what about a
local "oss-emulation" flag instead in alsa-drivers, which would be the
only one turned on in profiles?  Wouldn't it makes everyone happy?

--
TGL.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 08:40 +0200, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:23:58 -0400,
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > There are *many* applications in the tree that do not use ALSA, but
> > work only via the OSS emulation.  Removing this is a bad idea and it
> > would definitely be blocked by the games team.  Probably half of the
> > packages that I maintain require OSS capabilities.
> 
> I think the problem is that the "oss" flag is used for (at least) two
> slighlty different things:
>  - in alsa-driver, it adds OSS capabilities. That's something most
> people want, and should be enable by default.
>  - in most (all?) other packages, it enables optionnal OSS output.
> That's something most people don't use and don't wan't enabled by
> default.
> 
> Imho, when there is no "good" global value for a flag, it means it
> shouldn't be a single global flag (at least, until there is some 
> kind of per-package defaults support in Portage).  So, what about a
> local "oss-emulation" flag instead in alsa-drivers, which would be the
> only one turned on in profiles?  Wouldn't it makes everyone happy?

It would satisfy my requirements/needs.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Monday 05 June 2006 12:03, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> -apm
> -imlib
> -motif

kill em !

> -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?

fortran 4 eva
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Doug Goldstein]

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Mike Frysinger wrote:
> 
>> -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in gcc?
> 
> fortran 4 eva
> -mike

Mike,

Are you flashing fortran gang signs at us?

-- 
Doug Goldstein <cardoe@gentoo.org>
http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Jason Wever]

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On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Stefan Schweizer wrote:

> -xmms - xmms depends on gtk-1 and has been superseeded by audacious/bmpx

At least on SPARC (and possibly other arches, but I'll let them speak for 
themselves), there has yet to be an XMMS compatible replacement that is 
anywhere near as stable as XMMS is.

Until audacious or bmpx or the latest fork of a GTK2 based XMMS derivative 
is on par with XMMS, I'd like to ask that it stay in the tree (assuming no 
security issues pop up that we decide not to patch).

Cheers,
- -- 
Jason Wever
Gentoo/Sparc Team Co-Lead
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Danny van Dyk]

Am Montag, 5. Juni 2006 18:03 schrieb Stefan Schweizer:
> today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal.
keywords?

> They are outdated and no longer needed on current systems:
>
> -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in
> gcc?
Remove this and you'll break merging of approx. 30% of the ebuild in 
scientific herd. As long as there is no use-based deps, fortran should 
stay in default.

Danny
-- 
Danny van Dyk <kugelfang@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Default useflag cleanups: -apm -foomaticdb -fortran -imlib -motif -oss -xmms

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 01:05 +0200, Danny van Dyk wrote:
> Am Montag, 5. Juni 2006 18:03 schrieb Stefan Schweizer:
> > today I would like to propose a few default keywords for removal.
> keywords?
> 
> > They are outdated and no longer needed on current systems:
> >
> > -fortran - Do we really need this outdated language as a default in
> > gcc?
> Remove this and you'll break merging of approx. 30% of the ebuild in 
> scientific herd. As long as there is no use-based deps, fortran should 
> stay in default.

I had no intentions of touching anything in the
default-linux/make.defaults, as they are all there for a reason.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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