[gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Contgrats to the release team :-)

But let me whine a bit, even a few KB:

I just saw the GWN and the news about 2006.0 ...

So reading at the release notes:
> This is also the first release with the Gentoo Linux Installer 
> officially debuting on the x86 LiveCD, which will fully replace the 
> Universal and PackageCD set. The LiveCD also features a fully-fledged
> Gnome environment.

However the (normal) link to download it:
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml
Shows:

Gentoo 2006.0 Minimal install CD
(around 125 megabytes depending on arch)
alpha amd64 hppa ia64 ppc (32 bit) ppc64 sparc64 x86

Gentoo 2006.0 Universal install CD
(up to 600 megabytes depending on arch)
alpha amd64 hppa ppc (32 bit) ppc (64 bit) sparc64

Gentoo 2006.0 Package CD
(up to 700 megabytes depending on arch)
amd64 ppc (ppc) ppc (g4) ppc (64 bit - 32bit userland) ppc (64 bit - 64bit userland) sparc64 

So there are the Minimal, Universal and Package CDs...

No word of a LiveCD...
No link to a Universal CD for x86...

Browsing trough the torrents, there is a x86-livecd-2006.0 and
x86-installcd-2006.0 ...

yes, I figured out that x86-installcd-2006.0 is the "Gentoo 2006.0
Minimal install CD" for x86 or is it... will any n00b figure it out?

And probably the properly(?) named livecd-amd64-installer-2006.0 and
install-amd64-universal-2006.0 are here just to add some spice to the
soup...
Aha if I track all links in the bouncer, I start to understand...
So, a link like that:
http://bouncer.gentoo.org/?productgentoo-2006.0-universal&os=amd64
is for the Gentoo 2006.0 Universal install CD for amd64 arch - cool!
And it will bring you to install-amd64-universal-2006.0.iso!  So just
s/gentoo/install/ and stuff the os=(.*) in the middle - a piece of cake.
Aaah, however forget about the "Gentoo 2006.0 Package CD" - they have a
naming on their own and its scheme is too difficult to explain in a long
mail like that.

Just to toss a random example:
packages-ppc64-32ul-2006.0.iso comes for ppc (64 bit - 32bit userland)
of a "Gentoo 2006.0 Package CD".  The correspondence between "Universal
install CD" and "install-",  "Package CD" and "packageS" is a drill left
to the reader :-)

And we are talking consistency here, yes simple as that. There are
probably(?) good reasons behind the naming of the iso files (the torrent
list does not show the .iso, but who cares, once you stuff it
in your client you'll see it is an iso, right!), but are they good
enough for inconsistent naming? Or there is a scheme I cannot guess...

They might be good reasons not to include the Universal instal CD (i.e.
which one in the torrents? aha, probably after all there is no
Universal install CD for x86, it is called a LiveCD??? or /me again
wrong...) in the bouncer - sure that is the most wanted CD, but that eats
the most bandwidth.
Or is it because it was hard to write the XML of the page because it is a
structured, clerly defined language and makes it difficult to use
inconsistent naming of the iso files?? Well, if that was the reason...

But who knows. I might be just having a bad morning transforming into a
bad day...  I din't have enough time or will to help with the release, so I
can only whine out loud. If you've read so far, fell free to light up
your flamethrower, I should be able to stand it, or simply turn to ash.

Kalin.

-- 
|[ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ]|
+-> http://ThinRope.net/ <-+
|[ ______________________ ]|

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Andrew Muraco]

Kalin KOZHUHAROV wrote:

>Contgrats to the release team :-)
>
>But let me whine a bit, even a few KB:
>
>I just saw the GWN and the news about 2006.0 ...
>
>So reading at the release notes:
>  
>
>>This is also the first release with the Gentoo Linux Installer 
>>officially debuting on the x86 LiveCD, which will fully replace the 
>>Universal and PackageCD set. The LiveCD also features a fully-fledged
>>Gnome environment.
>>    
>>
>
>However the (normal) link to download it:
>http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml
>Shows:
>
>Gentoo 2006.0 Minimal install CD
>(around 125 megabytes depending on arch)
>alpha amd64 hppa ia64 ppc (32 bit) ppc64 sparc64 x86
>
>Gentoo 2006.0 Universal install CD
>(up to 600 megabytes depending on arch)
>alpha amd64 hppa ppc (32 bit) ppc (64 bit) sparc64
>
>Gentoo 2006.0 Package CD
>(up to 700 megabytes depending on arch)
>amd64 ppc (ppc) ppc (g4) ppc (64 bit - 32bit userland) ppc (64 bit - 64bit userland) sparc64 
>
>So there are the Minimal, Universal and Package CDs...
>
>No word of a LiveCD...
>No link to a Universal CD for x86...
>
>Browsing trough the torrents, there is a x86-livecd-2006.0 and
>x86-installcd-2006.0 ...
>
>yes, I figured out that x86-installcd-2006.0 is the "Gentoo 2006.0
>Minimal install CD" for x86 or is it... will any n00b figure it out?
>
>And probably the properly(?) named livecd-amd64-installer-2006.0 and
>install-amd64-universal-2006.0 are here just to add some spice to the
>soup...
>Aha if I track all links in the bouncer, I start to understand...
>So, a link like that:
>http://bouncer.gentoo.org/?productgentoo-2006.0-universal&os=amd64
>is for the Gentoo 2006.0 Universal install CD for amd64 arch - cool!
>And it will bring you to install-amd64-universal-2006.0.iso!  So just
>s/gentoo/install/ and stuff the os=(.*) in the middle - a piece of cake.
>Aaah, however forget about the "Gentoo 2006.0 Package CD" - they have a
>naming on their own and its scheme is too difficult to explain in a long
>mail like that.
>
>Just to toss a random example:
>packages-ppc64-32ul-2006.0.iso comes for ppc (64 bit - 32bit userland)
>of a "Gentoo 2006.0 Package CD".  The correspondence between "Universal
>install CD" and "install-",  "Package CD" and "packageS" is a drill left
>to the reader :-)
>
>And we are talking consistency here, yes simple as that. There are
>probably(?) good reasons behind the naming of the iso files (the torrent
>list does not show the .iso, but who cares, once you stuff it
>in your client you'll see it is an iso, right!), but are they good
>enough for inconsistent naming? Or there is a scheme I cannot guess...
>
>They might be good reasons not to include the Universal instal CD (i.e.
>which one in the torrents? aha, probably after all there is no
>Universal install CD for x86, it is called a LiveCD??? or /me again
>wrong...) in the bouncer - sure that is the most wanted CD, but that eats
>the most bandwidth.
>Or is it because it was hard to write the XML of the page because it is a
>structured, clerly defined language and makes it difficult to use
>inconsistent naming of the iso files?? Well, if that was the reason...
>
>But who knows. I might be just having a bad morning transforming into a
>bad day...  I din't have enough time or will to help with the release, so I
>can only whine out loud. If you've read so far, fell free to light up
>your flamethrower, I should be able to stand it, or simply turn to ash.
>
>Kalin.
>
>  
>
I second that there is a massive confusion of naming, and this needs to 
get sorted out (or atleast explained) Because I'm sure the mirrors will 
start getting slamed with people downloading 2006.0. Lets not waste 
anyone's bandwidth nor the mirrors by leading people to download the 
wrong thing.

Regards,
Tux
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Re: [gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Jeffrey Forman]

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On Sun, 2006-02-26 at 22:54 -0500, Andrew Muraco wrote:
> I second that there is a massive confusion of naming, and this needs to 
> get sorted out (or atleast explained) Because I'm sure the mirrors will 
> start getting slamed with people downloading 2006.0. Lets not waste 
> anyone's bandwidth nor the mirrors by leading people to download the 
> wrong thing.
> 

Andrew,

I do not mean to cop an attitude, but please give me some time here to
figure this out. This is the first time I myself am handling the bouncer
administration for a release, and I would really appreciate some
patience on your part.

I am updating the page as fast as I find an error in it. Thanks.

Regards,
Jeffrey
-- 

-----------------------
Jeffrey Forman
Gentoo Infrastructure
Gentoo Release Engineering
Bugs.Gentoo.org Administrator
jforman@gentoo.org
-----------------------

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Re: [gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Tuan Van]

Kalin KOZHUHAROV wrote:
> yes, I figured out that x86-installcd-2006.0 is the "Gentoo 2006.0
> Minimal install CD" for x86 or is it... will any n00b figure it out?
>
>   
If a n00b can't figure it out, I would suggest him start  from Read The
Fine  Handbook http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index.xml. For
example http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=2

HTH
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Re: [gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Jeffrey Forman wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-02-26 at 22:54 -0500, Andrew Muraco wrote:
>> I second that there is a massive confusion of naming, and this needs to 
>> get sorted out (or atleast explained) Because I'm sure the mirrors will 
>> start getting slamed with people downloading 2006.0. Lets not waste 
>> anyone's bandwidth nor the mirrors by leading people to download the 
>> wrong thing.
>>
> 
> Andrew,
> 
> I do not mean to cop an attitude, but please give me some time here to
> figure this out. This is the first time I myself am handling the bouncer
> administration for a release, and I would really appreciate some
> patience on your part.
> 
> I am updating the page as fast as I find an error in it. Thanks.

Thank you for your effort, Jeffrey!

It may turn a good day after all :-)

Have you (or RT) actually thought of providing a pivoted list for downloads?
I feel it is more reasonable to first choose your arch (i.e. on what hardware
you want to install Gentoo) and then see what options you have.

As opposed to the following imaginary n00b:
1. I want a "Universal CD"!

2. Hmm, it is not that universal if I need to choose my arch (I've read
the link on arches!)!

3. Hey, wait a minute! What is that 64bit - 32bit userland ??? What is 64bit? What is userland? (wasn't coverd under arches)

4. Lets do some research... ok, I got it there is difference between kernel that is 64bit and userland, cool! They should have stated: 64bit kernel + 32bit userland (and a plus is better than a minus, even if it is a hyphen)

5. Hmm, but I am using P4 after all, so I need x86!

6. Oops, where is the x86 Universal CD?

7. OK, there is a lonely x86 link under "Gentoo 2006.0 LiveCD", probably that is what I need. But why did the change the name???

8. Oh cool they have torrents here! Let me get that x86 Live CD with my torrent tool! Should probably be faster... (click on the torrent link)

9. Hmm, that x86-livecd-2006.0 should probably do. It is a CD image, so probably is an ISO file... Click!

10. Lets get some coffee, I am tired. But wait, what are these stages bla-bla (reading the handbook) OK, great, I might need them (didn't read that thoroughly after all, kind of tired). The torrents are not that fast after all and there are not enough seeds for stage3-x86-2006.0... (click back)

11. And where is the x86 package CD after all!!! Oh, it might be "part"
of the LiveCD? I wonder, but is there any documentation (looking around
the page...) Anywhere I can see the contents of the ISO files [1] (looking
and clicking around...) no.

12. Sip from a big mug of coffee - Gentoo is not that hard after all, lets
wait and see what am I downloading...


[1] It might be a good idea to implement that.


So sometiing like:

Select your download according to your hardware architecture. (see ...
for info on architectures or ... for the explanaiton of different CD
types )

x86 (486, PentiumIII, Celeron... define it better)
minimal	livecd

amd64 (AMD Athlon64 ...)
minimal install packages
.....


This will be easier not only for n00bs, I guess and is inspired by the
"Don't MAKE me think" book on web design/usability.

Kalin.

-- 
|[ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ]|
+-> http://ThinRope.net/ <-+
|[ ______________________ ]|

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Tuan Van wrote:
> Kalin KOZHUHAROV wrote:
>> yes, I figured out that x86-installcd-2006.0 is the "Gentoo 2006.0
>> Minimal install CD" for x86 or is it... will any n00b figure it out?
>>
>>   
> If a n00b can't figure it out, I would suggest him start  from Read The
> Fine  Handbook http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index.xml. For
> example http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=2

Good point! The docs are really getting better since I read them from
beginning to end four years ago.

However, the only problem is that some X% (my estimate is 50%) of the
n00bs will never go back and ask or search. Might be wrong of course.

May be a specific link from the download page? Jeffrey?
e.g.:

For more information on the Gentoo CDs, see <a href="http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=2#doc_chap2">the information</a> in Chapter 2 of the <a href="http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/">Gentoo Handbook</a>.

(mind HanbookS vs. Handbook)


BTW, here:
	http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.0/index.xml
One can find a bunch of cryptic (for a n00b) links to the archs... I am
sure most n00bs tunning x86 don't know that fact, while most on alpha
should not be n00bs anyway.

Add a cross-ref explaining what is an arch?
In the bottom table, better to s/Links/Architectures/ ?
Shall I file a bug report for that, or somebody will pick it up from
here?

Kalin.
-- 
|[ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ]|
+-> http://ThinRope.net/ <-+
|[ ______________________ ]|

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2006.0 - me having a bad day?

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Kalin KOZHUHAROV wrote:
> Jeffrey Forman wrote:
>> On Sun, 2006-02-26 at 22:54 -0500, Andrew Muraco wrote:
>>> I second that there is a massive confusion of naming, and this needs to 
>>> get sorted out (or atleast explained) Because I'm sure the mirrors will 
>>> start getting slamed with people downloading 2006.0. Lets not waste 
>>> anyone's bandwidth nor the mirrors by leading people to download the 
>>> wrong thing.
>>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I do not mean to cop an attitude, but please give me some time here to
>> figure this out. This is the first time I myself am handling the bouncer
>> administration for a release, and I would really appreciate some
>> patience on your part.
>>
>> I am updating the page as fast as I find an error in it. Thanks.
> 
> Thank you for your effort, Jeffrey!
> 
> It may turn a good day after all :-)
> 
> Have you (or RT) actually thought of providing a pivoted list for downloads?
> I feel it is more reasonable to first choose your arch (i.e. on what hardware
> you want to install Gentoo) and then see what options you have.
> 
> As opposed to the following imaginary n00b:
> 1. I want a "Universal CD"!
> 
> 2. Hmm, it is not that universal if I need to choose my arch (I've read
> the link on arches!)!
> 
> 3. Hey, wait a minute! What is that 64bit - 32bit userland ??? What is 64bit? What is userland? (wasn't coverd under arches)
> 
> 4. Lets do some research... ok, I got it there is difference between kernel that is 64bit and userland, cool! They should have stated: 64bit kernel + 32bit userland (and a plus is better than a minus, even if it is a hyphen)
> 
> 5. Hmm, but I am using P4 after all, so I need x86!
> 
> 6. Oops, where is the x86 Universal CD?
> 
> 7. OK, there is a lonely x86 link under "Gentoo 2006.0 LiveCD", probably that is what I need. But why did the change the name???
> 
> 8. Oh cool they have torrents here! Let me get that x86 Live CD with my torrent tool! Should probably be faster... (click on the torrent link)
> 
> 9. Hmm, that x86-livecd-2006.0 should probably do. It is a CD image, so probably is an ISO file... Click!
> 
> 10. Lets get some coffee, I am tired. But wait, what are these stages bla-bla (reading the handbook) OK, great, I might need them (didn't read that thoroughly after all, kind of tired). The torrents are not that fast after all and there are not enough seeds for stage3-x86-2006.0... (click back)
> 
> 11. And where is the x86 package CD after all!!! Oh, it might be "part"
> of the LiveCD? I wonder, but is there any documentation (looking around
> the page...) Anywhere I can see the contents of the ISO files [1] (looking
> and clicking around...) no.
> 
> 12. Sip from a big mug of coffee - Gentoo is not that hard after all, lets
> wait and see what am I downloading...
> 
> 
> [1] It might be a good idea to implement that.
> 
> 
> So sometiing like:
> 
> Select your download according to your hardware architecture. (see ...
> for info on architectures or ... for the explanaiton of different CD
> types )
> 
> x86 (486, PentiumIII, Celeron... define it better)
> minimal	livecd
> 
> amd64 (AMD Athlon64 ...)
> minimal install packages
> .....
> 
> 
> This will be easier not only for n00bs, I guess and is inspired by the
> "Don't MAKE me think" book on web design/usability.

On a second note, the design of our packages.gentoo.org is not bad at all!
Why not use it? For example see:
http://packages.gentoo.org/packages/?category=net-misc;name=curl

Replace PV with the different CDs (use <acronym title="Short explanation here">),
add the speacial "arches" like 64-32ul with acronym as well.

Dunnow about colors, but use them consistently (with a legend).


Kalin.

-- 
|[ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ]|
+-> http://ThinRope.net/ <-+
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