From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Edadq-0004Yd-0w for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:53:02 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id jAJLqK86013429; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:52:20 GMT Received: from cs.ubishops.ca (CS.ubishops.ca [206.167.194.132]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jAJLoW1J015658 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:50:32 GMT Received: from [192.168.1.52] (toronto-HSE-ppp4136711.sympatico.ca [70.51.49.7]) by cs.ubishops.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996243A7A1 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:50:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <437F9E2B.40303@cs.ubishops.ca> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:50:35 -0500 From: Scott Stoddard User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051107) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain References: <1132333748.8524.9.camel@localhost> <20051118173243.GA16034@dmz.brixandersen.dk> <437E4F3E.5070705@gentoo.org> <20051118221428.15ba3adb@snowdrop.home> <437E5965.10502@gentoo.org> <20051118235829.GC12958@dst.grantgoodyear.org> <3610591862.20051119010748@gentoo.org> <437E7B49.7080204@gentoo.org> <20051119194848.GC28867@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <20051119194848.GC28867@gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 382252c8-4502-474e-b22e-ed7074366f41 X-Archives-Hash: 379667887a717c0b3c5ec0a55ab3d746 Thanks hparker for letting me know about this part of the thread and a call for opinions from ATs. Sven Vermeulen wrote: > The GLEP was originally created to help the architecture testers with a > specific privilege: read-only CVS access. This would allow them to improve > the quality of the ebuilds sooner, help the architecture teams identify > working (and perhaps even more important, not-working) tools and perform > tests on the global system to make sure the distribution is in top-notch > shape. And this is certainly still the most important part of the whole thing. > The e-mail address was not that important, but was decided to bring it in > "the package" because it would be some sort of appreciation to those users. Until recently I may have agreed with that sentiment, but honestly I can now see several ways that the email address would help to cut down confusion and make the whole operation less of a PITA. 1. The identification of ATs in b.g.o by an @g.o address allows devs and other ATs to quickly identify who is and is not a 'trusted' source of information. This may not seem challenging now, but as the number of ATs increases I fear it will become so. We currently have 20 active ATs with amd64 and I know there's at least one more in the pipe right now -- it gets hard to remember everyone. 2. As (I would like to think) part of our responsibility is to answer questions on the IRC channels, as is the case with the devs, it makes it easier from a user standpoint to contact one of us by email working on the assumption that our address is nick@g.o as opposed to everyone asking for the information over and over again. > One general idea was that arch testers wouldn't be developers because they > have no formal obligation to the Gentoo project: we don't expect them to put > in x hours a week in Gentoo, read the gentoo-core and -dev mailinglists or > even catch up with most of the events that happen in Gentoo (like GLEPs and > such). This is also a request from the arch testers, because many of them > *can't* devote much time to Gentoo anyway. Very true. > That sentiment is reflected in using a subdomain address, and from what we > heard no tester had any problems with this (the e-mail addy is far less > important than the rest of the GLEP). (Admittedly, I joined the ranks of the ATs after the inital GLEP and council meeting) I have a problem with the subdomain -- actually a few. Most of my issues here are the same as have been presented earlier in the thread dealing mainly with the extensibility of the whole thing. As kurt pointed out, what happens when someone occupies multiple roles? Do we just provide every email address and alias ourselves like crazy? For those ATs that are going to become devs, it seems especially foolish as we would be given one address, which will be used all over b.g.o, only to have to switch to another one within a period of a couple of months thereby building up a cruft of aliases which will have to realistically remain as long as we stay with the organization. I mean, it's obviously not my job to maintain that, but it doesn't seem very forward-thinking. Also, when I'm not doing my research for school or working on Gentoo stuff I work for a great company in Canada called Canadian Tire. If I want to email someone in the mailroom at our head office, I send an email to name@cantire.com; but here's the kicker, if I want to email the CEO, I send an email to name@cantire.com. But wait you say! Canadian Tire is a corporation and people are paid to work directly for the company and therefore everyones' email should be @cantire.com. Well, what about the United Way - one of the biggest volunteer organizations in the world (and one I spent many years with). Turns out that you can reach anyone there at name@unitedway.ca, manager or secretary or Jo Blo community representative alike. My point here being that I have a problem with designs that set an overlord/underling pattern in place. I feel that it represents the organization as a whole badly. Somehow I had this belief that if we all do work directly for gentoo, then why wouldn't we just be nick@g.o? > One (important) part of the GLEP is the request that the arch tester has > passed the Staff Quiz and that a probation period should be passed before > read-only CVS access is given. I'm personally wondering how close this comes > to becoming a real developer (which, iirc, is something the trustees should > be called upon as the Foundation should keep track of "what" defines a > "Gentoo Developer", as developers have voting rights on the Foundation > board). As I said before, the arch testers themselves aren't asking for > being a developer but rather for additional tools to help them do their > work. > > I've said it in the first meeting and I'll reiterate: what is the sentiment > of the arch testers in this case (if they are still reading this thread)? No matter what comes of all this (we do or do not get ro cvs, same for emails) I'm going to continue to do my work. I mean, my motivation for joining the organization in the first place has not changed -- I want to give back to gentoo because I have enjoyed using it all these years and it is only through the RSI of the volunteers that it continues to get better and better all the time. That said, the ro cvs is but a tool to help in our work, and I'm a big fan of tools to make jobs faster and easier. Email addresses are both a tool and a point of recognition and in accordance have a two-fold benefit. > > Wkr, > Sven Vermeulen > > PS I would be quite surprised if there is *one* arch tester who feels good > with this entire thread; it doesn't show of much appreciation between > people. There is a huge difference between saying that a group has "made > an unfortunate decision" or "did not grasp the essence of the proposal > and situation needed to make a good decision", and "abuse of powers". Well, it has certainly shown me a darker side of the inside of Gentoo. Plus, it's not all that comforting when people debate about your existence. I worked about 10 hours this week on Gentoo stuff (it's all the time I could afford); not stuff for me -- I couldn't personally care at all if xcb or rman work on amd64 as they're applications that I don't have a particular use for, but I'm more than happy to put in the time to improve our arch support ... because it's. my. job. Then to be told that few people actually want to recognize that work is a little disheartening. Scott Stoddard deltacow@something.something -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list