[gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Chris Gianelloni]

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While discussing a couple issues I was having with automated tinderbox
testing of gnome/kde on x86, it was decided that now might be a good
time to visit the default virtual for alsa.  Basically, the Gentoo Linux
ALSA Guide[1] recommends using the in-kernel ALSA.  We are also using
2.6 kernels as the default on almost all architectures.  The idea is
pretty simple.  Change virtual/alsa to match virtual/kernel-sources in
base/virtuals, and change virtual/alsa to alsa-driver on architectures
still using a 2.4 kernel.

So should we do this?

I think it would be a wise move, as I've seen more and more issues with
alsa-driver being pulled in when people don't want/need it.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Monday 17 October 2005 20:25, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Change virtual/alsa to match virtual/kernel-sources in
> base/virtuals, and change virtual/alsa to alsa-driver on architectures
> still using a 2.4 kernel.
This might be a bit of a problematic choice... I usually suggest using 
alsa-driver also if the in-kernel is "quicker" to manage... The reason is 
that I still fear for alsa-lib/-driver differences, and there was at least a 
couple of issues with in-kernel emu10k1 drivers in the past that solved using 
alsa-driver, as they got fixed first.

Also, alsa-driver allows to have more updated drivers also using old 2.6 
versions, and there are quite a bit of people that does not like to update 
the kernel if they don't have to (I think I'm one of them now, after the day 
spent looking why the system got unstable -and finding out the swap space 
lost somehow the signature), but might have issues with alsa that can be 
solved with a simple alsa-driver.

For the rest, probably is good to have virtuals and doc in-sync..

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Jan Kundrát]

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On Monday 17 of October 2005 20:42 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> This might be a bit of a problematic choice...

For more details about why we've chosen to recommend the in-kernel way please 
see bug 92622 [1].

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92622

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Shyam Mani]

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Jan Kundrát wrote:
> For more details about why we've chosen to recommend the in-kernel way please 
> see bug 92622 [1].
> 
> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92622

Also https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98772

Regards,

-- 
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 16:20 +0530, Shyam Mani wrote:
> Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > For more details about why we've chosen to recommend the in-kernel way please 
> > see bug 92622 [1].
> > 
> > [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92622
> 
> Also https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98772

If there are no objections before Friday, I'm going to change
virtual/alsa in base to sys-kernel/gentoo-sources.

Now, if there are any arch-specific sources (sparc? mips?) that don't
provide ALSA, please let me know before then, so I will know to add the
virtual to those architectures for media-sound/alsa-driver.

Thanks,

(Please keep all replies on -dev... I'm sending this to -core only to
ensure the most number of developers sees it...)

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Stephen P. Becker]

> If there are no objections before Friday, I'm going to change
> virtual/alsa in base to sys-kernel/gentoo-sources.
> 
> Now, if there are any arch-specific sources (sparc? mips?) that don't
> provide ALSA, please let me know before then, so I will know to add the
> virtual to those architectures for media-sound/alsa-driver.

The mips-sources-2.6* ebuilds should provide alsa just the same as any 
other 2.6 kernel source package.  The thing here is that we still have 
mips-sources-2.4* ebuilds hanging around, and we don't have any kernel 
specific profiles that would distinguish them.

-Steve
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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 09:18 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> > If there are no objections before Friday, I'm going to change
> > virtual/alsa in base to sys-kernel/gentoo-sources.
> > 
> > Now, if there are any arch-specific sources (sparc? mips?) that don't
> > provide ALSA, please let me know before then, so I will know to add the
> > virtual to those architectures for media-sound/alsa-driver.
> 
> The mips-sources-2.6* ebuilds should provide alsa just the same as any 
> other 2.6 kernel source package.  The thing here is that we still have 
> mips-sources-2.4* ebuilds hanging around, and we don't have any kernel 
> specific profiles that would distinguish them.

...and mips-sources-2.4* isn't patched with alsa, correct?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Stephen P. Becker]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 09:18 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> 
>>>If there are no objections before Friday, I'm going to change
>>>virtual/alsa in base to sys-kernel/gentoo-sources.
>>>
>>>Now, if there are any arch-specific sources (sparc? mips?) that don't
>>>provide ALSA, please let me know before then, so I will know to add the
>>>virtual to those architectures for media-sound/alsa-driver.
>>
>>The mips-sources-2.6* ebuilds should provide alsa just the same as any 
>>other 2.6 kernel source package.  The thing here is that we still have 
>>mips-sources-2.4* ebuilds hanging around, and we don't have any kernel 
>>specific profiles that would distinguish them.
> 
> 
> ...and mips-sources-2.4* isn't patched with alsa, correct?

Correct.

-Steve
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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 09:56 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 09:18 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> > 
> >>>If there are no objections before Friday, I'm going to change
> >>>virtual/alsa in base to sys-kernel/gentoo-sources.
> >>>
> >>>Now, if there are any arch-specific sources (sparc? mips?) that don't
> >>>provide ALSA, please let me know before then, so I will know to add the
> >>>virtual to those architectures for media-sound/alsa-driver.
> >>
> >>The mips-sources-2.6* ebuilds should provide alsa just the same as any 
> >>other 2.6 kernel source package.  The thing here is that we still have 
> >>mips-sources-2.4* ebuilds hanging around, and we don't have any kernel 
> >>specific profiles that would distinguish them.
> > 
> > 
> > ...and mips-sources-2.4* isn't patched with alsa, correct?
> 
> Correct.

What would be your recommendation on how to handle this for mips, then?
Make the virtual alsa-driver?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Stephen P. Becker]

> What would be your recommendation on how to handle this for mips, then?
> Make the virtual alsa-driver?

This wouldn't work, as none of our alsa drivers are actually provided by 
alsa-driver.

-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 11:03 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> > What would be your recommendation on how to handle this for mips, then?
> > Make the virtual alsa-driver?
> 
> This wouldn't work, as none of our alsa drivers are actually provided by 
> alsa-driver.

OK.  How does it work now, then?

...and please provide me with any information that you think I might
need or even a suggestion on what you want.  This having to email back
and forth is tiresome.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Stephen P. Becker]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 11:03 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> 
>>>What would be your recommendation on how to handle this for mips, then?
>>>Make the virtual alsa-driver?
>>
>>This wouldn't work, as none of our alsa drivers are actually provided by 
>>alsa-driver.
> 
> 
> OK.  How does it work now, then?
> 
> ...and please provide me with any information that you think I might
> need or even a suggestion on what you want.  This having to email back
> and forth is tiresome.
> 

If you are so concerned with getting this issue hammered out without 
more than one email, you should have just pinged one of us on irc. 
What's wrong with having an ongoing discussion on a mailing list where 
anybody might be able to chip in to the conversation?

Currently, we have two machines with alsa drivers (only one of which 
*really* works, but that is beside the point), and the working driver is 
applied to our mips-sources-2.6.* ebuilds along with the patchset for 
octane.  However, this information is pretty irrelevent from my point of 
view.  The real problems are that A) alsa-driver doesn't contain any 
mips drivers, B) 2.4 kernel sources do not contain the alsa drivers 
while 2.6 do, and C) that mips-sources included both 2.4 and 2.6. 
Therefore, we really do not have anything generic that can be changed to 
the default virtual for us without being broken (until such time as we 
can finally get rid of 2.4).  I don't have a solution at this point in 
time either...I'm just saying how things are.

Unfortunately, we don't have any member of the mips team that really 
does much with sound (where did that Indy go to anyway?), so I'm not 
sure any of us are going to be able to give you a satisfying answer or 
solution.

-Steve
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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:41:26 -0400 "Stephen P. Becker"
<geoman@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Unfortunately, we don't have any member of the mips team that really 
| does much with sound (where did that Indy go to anyway?)

eradicator.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 15:41 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 11:03 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> > 
> >>>What would be your recommendation on how to handle this for mips, then?
> >>>Make the virtual alsa-driver?
> >>
> >>This wouldn't work, as none of our alsa drivers are actually provided by 
> >>alsa-driver.
> > 
> > 
> > OK.  How does it work now, then?
> > 
> > ...and please provide me with any information that you think I might
> > need or even a suggestion on what you want.  This having to email back
> > and forth is tiresome.
> > 
> 
> If you are so concerned with getting this issue hammered out without 
> more than one email, you should have just pinged one of us on irc. 
> What's wrong with having an ongoing discussion on a mailing list where 
> anybody might be able to chip in to the conversation?

My point was really that if you know pertinent information, why make
someone ask for it over and over again.

> Currently, we have two machines with alsa drivers (only one of which 
> *really* works, but that is beside the point), and the working driver is 
> applied to our mips-sources-2.6.* ebuilds along with the patchset for 
> octane.  However, this information is pretty irrelevent from my point of 
> view.  The real problems are that A) alsa-driver doesn't contain any 
> mips drivers, B) 2.4 kernel sources do not contain the alsa drivers 
> while 2.6 do, and C) that mips-sources included both 2.4 and 2.6. 
> Therefore, we really do not have anything generic that can be changed to 
> the default virtual for us without being broken (until such time as we 
> can finally get rid of 2.4).  I don't have a solution at this point in 
> time either...I'm just saying how things are.

This is exactly the kind of information that I was looking for when I
asked.  Thank you.

As I understand it, the only working ALSA driver that you have it part
of mips-sources.  It would make sense to me for that to be the default
virtual, as it would work for at least some people, versus the current
situation where it works for none.

> Unfortunately, we don't have any member of the mips team that really 
> does much with sound (where did that Indy go to anyway?), so I'm not 
> sure any of us are going to be able to give you a satisfying answer or 
> solution.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[John Mylchreest]

On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 15:41 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> Currently, we have two machines with alsa drivers (only one of which 
> *really* works, but that is beside the point), and the working driver is 
> applied to our mips-sources-2.6.* ebuilds along with the patchset for 
> octane.  However, this information is pretty irrelevent from my point of 
> view.  The real problems are that A) alsa-driver doesn't contain any 
> mips drivers, B) 2.4 kernel sources do not contain the alsa drivers 
> while 2.6 do, and C) that mips-sources included both 2.4 and 2.6. 
> Therefore, we really do not have anything generic that can be changed to 
> the default virtual for us without being broken (until such time as we 
> can finally get rid of 2.4).  I don't have a solution at this point in 
> time either...I'm just saying how things are.

I dont see this as a real reason to not change the default personally.
mips-sources exists in the tree for a reason, and are being actively
maintained. by setting the default virtual for alsa-sound to
gentoo-sources surely wont effect you anyways, considering alsa-drivers
doesn't work, gentoo-sources likely dont work, and mips-sources provide
virtual/alsa?

If at some point alsa-drivers decides to work, then can you not just
redefine the virtual in the mips profile?

Anyways, I see no real point here to prevent the move, however I found
it educational re: alsa-driver :)

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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[Stephen P. Becker]

dont see this as a real reason to not change the default personally.
> mips-sources exists in the tree for a reason, and are being actively
> maintained. by setting the default virtual for alsa-sound to
> gentoo-sources surely wont effect you anyways, considering alsa-drivers
> doesn't work, gentoo-sources likely dont work, and mips-sources provide
> virtual/alsa?

The problem is that *all* mips-sources ebuilds do not provide alsa. 
Only the mips-sources-2.6.* versions do this, and then only if 
USE="ip30" (Octane users).

> If at some point alsa-drivers decides to work, then can you not just
> redefine the virtual in the mips profile?

Sure, it would be no problem in that case.

> Anyways, I see no real point here to prevent the move, however I found
> it educational re: alsa-driver :)

I'm just worried about folks running 2.4 systems (only Indys at this 
point) with mips-sources "providing" alsa, but not really.  This could 
get even more tricky because I happen to know somebody is working on an 
alsa driver for Indy, and it will be for 2.6 only.  We're trying really 
hard to get everything to where we can just get rid of 2.4, but until 
that time, setting the virtual to mips-sources is technically broken.

-Steve
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Re: [gentoo-core] Re: [gentoo-dev] Possible virtual/alsa change

[John Mylchreest]

On Thu, 2005-10-27 at 14:28 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> The problem is that *all* mips-sources ebuilds do not provide alsa. 
> Only the mips-sources-2.6.* versions do this, and then only if 
> USE="ip30" (Octane users).

This makes sense, although not the USE flag.

> I'm just worried about folks running 2.4 systems (only Indys at this 
> point) with mips-sources "providing" alsa, but not really.  This could 
> get even more tricky because I happen to know somebody is working on an 
> alsa driver for Indy, and it will be for 2.6 only.  We're trying really 
> hard to get everything to where we can just get rid of 2.4, but until 
> that time, setting the virtual to mips-sources is technically broken.

Of course, 2.4 kernels are technically broken because they dont support
alsa, and this is fixed in other profiles with the inclusion of a 2.4
(or 2.6) sub profile. However.. if nothing actually works with alsa,
then I dont see the problem in that case of making the profile default
mips-sources. if it happens to install 2.4 sources, then so be it. it
might be a technically incorrect provide.. but nothing else can fill it
any better. At least at this moment in time.

If it were me, thats what I would do. But of course, this change doesn't
really make any difference to mips one way or the other.

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