[gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Tomáš Chvátal]

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Hi,
I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian so
that is at least bit ok :)

I can understand that it might be nice to user to see these messages in
their native language, but it gets hell annoying when we have to figure
out wtf is going on with their build when they attach it to the bug.

So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
English.

Opinions?

Cheers

Tom
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[ragavender rao]

yes.I too like that idea but people from some of the asian countries
like china, japan may fing difficult. So english with addition of
fewer languages can be used in it.

On 4/22/11, Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
> I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
> interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian so
> that is at least bit ok :)
>
> I can understand that it might be nice to user to see these messages in
> their native language, but it gets hell annoying when we have to figure
> out wtf is going on with their build when they attach it to the bug.
>
> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> English.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom
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>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk2xZxIACgkQHB6c3gNBRYfPgwCeIFkMVFzVc1AuhSmG3cGJOw9O
> Hk4AnRJtoDovwAfvGO6DdIGjCKEXvc3H
> =7Mfc
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Fabian Groffen]

On 22-04-2011 13:31:30 +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> English.

How about creating a bug-reporting tool that simply runs the make
command again, without parallelisation, and with forced LC_ALL=C/POSIX?

Has the bonus that in most cases this makes finding the real error
easier.  Has the drawback that it isn't always perfect/working, and that
one has to use a separate tool (or emerge --report-bug or something).


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Tomáš Chvátal schrieb:
> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> English.
>
> Opinions?

I think setting LC_MESSAGES=C is ok. Manipulating LANG or LC_ALL could
have more side effects.

Alternatively, portage could alert the user to submit bug reports only
with a C or English locale if a different one is detected.


Regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:31:30 +0200
Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
> interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian
> so that is at least bit ok :)

I envy you. :)

> I can understand that it might be nice to user to see these messages
> in their native language, but it gets hell annoying when we have to
> figure out wtf is going on with their build when they attach it to
> the bug.

Meanwhile, we have been "fixing" bugs for years that only arise when
some funky LC_* values are used.

> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> English.

+1.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeremy Olexa]

 On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:31:30 +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
> I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
> interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian 
> so
> that is at least bit ok :)
>
> I can understand that it might be nice to user to see these messages 
> in
> their native language, but it gets hell annoying when we have to 
> figure
> out wtf is going on with their build when they attach it to the bug.

 I only spend a minimal amount of time on "figuring out what is wrong" - 
 RESOLVED:NEEDINFO, move on. So, I could care less on what portage does.
 -Jeremy

> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is 
> always
> English.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom

Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Freitag 22 April 2011, 17:23:19 schrieb Jeroen Roovers:
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:31:30 +0200
> 
> Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
> > interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian
> > so that is at least bit ok :)
> 
> > So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> > English.
> 
> +1.
> 
> 
>      jer

+1 too

Is there any good reason for a build to run with a specific locale?
If not, we should really force a "standard environment".

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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How about a portage "feature" that is off by default? Like, "locale" meaning 
"build with locale"?

If it is on, and a build fails, the default error message could be extended 
with something like

"Note that this build was using your system locale, i.e. the error messages 
are in your language and may not be understood by the developers or 
maintainers. If you want to file a bug, please re-emerge with FEATURE=-locale"

Am Freitag 22 April 2011, 14:31:33 schrieb ragavender rao:
> yes.I too like that idea but people from some of the asian countries
> like china, japan may fing difficult. So english with addition of
> fewer languages can be used in it.
> 
> On 4/22/11, Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Hi,
> > I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
> > interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian so
> > that is at least bit ok :)
> > 
> > I can understand that it might be nice to user to see these messages in
> > their native language, but it gets hell annoying when we have to figure
> > out wtf is going on with their build when they attach it to the bug.
> > 
> > So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> > English.
> > 
> > Opinions?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Tom
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> > 
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> > Hk4AnRJtoDovwAfvGO6DdIGjCKEXvc3H
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> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:53:36 +0200
"Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:

> 
> How about a portage "feature" that is off by default? Like, "locale"
> meaning "build with locale"?

You mean we should settle for only slightly improved odds of getting a
build log we all can read?

> If it is on, and a build fails, the default error message could be
> extended with something like
> 
> "Note that this build was using your system locale, i.e. the error
> messages are in your language and may not be understood by the
> developers or maintainers. If you want to file a bug, please
> re-emerge with FEATURE=-locale"

1) Hardly anyone is going to actually read that.

2) A good many of those who do read it, will ignore it.

3) It raises the bar for the bug to get filed in the first place. It's
   definitely not a good idea to require users to go into another 10
   hour session of, say, libreoffice or chromium compiling just to get
   the proper LC_MESSAGES.

Again, slightly improved odds.

Also, with an interface that already forces users to read and write
English, and with the many commands not even using NLS or
lacking full translations coverage of all messages, it would probably
be in everyone's interest to see monolingual build output.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Disabling locale at emerge output

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> English.
> 
> Opinions?

There's another very good reason to implement this filtering. 

I have observed that some of the QA warnings (I think _FORTIFY_SOURCE related) 
are only triggered with an English locale. 

And I'm sure we all pretty much agree that getting these warnings is a Good 
Thing...

So, +1

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Duncan]

Jeroen Roovers posted on Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:48:53 +0200 as excerpted:

> On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:53:36 +0200 "Andreas K. Huettel"
> <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> How about a portage "feature" that is off by default? Like, "locale"
>> meaning "build with locale"?
> 
> You mean we should settle for only slightly improved odds of getting a
> build log we all can read?

The odds should be /vastly/ improved.

1)  FEATURES=locale would be off by default, so portage would build with 
POSIX locale by default.

2) The feature description could suitably strongly discourage turning it 
on if one plans to file bugs at all, and/or turning it off to file those 
bugs (thus further discouraging turning it on in the first place).

3) Can features be masked in the profiles?  If so, mask the feature if 
felt necessary, requiring jumping thru even more MORE hoops to turn it on, 
thus discouraging it even further.

But regardless of the fact that I only personally do English, I do believe 
the option should remain for those who wish to change it, to do so, 
regardless of how strongly discouraged said option might be.  (Funny, I 
never thought I'd be taking /this/ side of such an argument! =;^0 )

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 21:55:13 +0000 (UTC)
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> The odds should be /vastly/ improved.

Oh, you want to wrangle bugs too? How fast can you type "Please post
your `emerge --info' output too."? :)

> 1)  FEATURES=locale would be off by default, so portage would build
> with POSIX locale by default.

We might as well skip the entire FEATURES=locale and simply detect the
actual locale instead. Not that I think this would help us, but adding
a FEATURE to discourage people from using that very same feature does
sound like a bad design to me.

In my opinion, what we should do instead is acknowledge the policy
that's been in place all along, that is to require build logs with
"universally" appreciated error messages, and reinforce that policy
using technical means, instead of having asking users nicely every
time for something they may not even be aware of.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Serkan Kaba]

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On 25-04-2011 00:55, Duncan wrote:
> 1)  FEATURES=locale would be off by default, so portage would build with 
> POSIX locale by default.
Will this feature effect the whole build process? This might cause
locale dependent bugs (such as difference of capitalizations in Turkish
or different letter order in some locales causing grep matches to fail)
to go unnoticed.

- -- 
Sincerely,
Serkan KABA
Gentoo Developer
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Duncan]

Jeroen Roovers posted on Mon, 25 Apr 2011 03:57:30 +0200 as excerpted:

> In my opinion, what we should do instead is acknowledge the policy
> that's been in place all along, that is to require build logs with
> "universally" appreciated error messages, and reinforce that policy
> using technical means, instead of having asking users nicely every time
> for something they may not even be aware of.

I've no problem with that, as long as is traditional with Gentoo, we give 
users a clear override, should they have reason to believe the want/need 
it.

I'd also have no problem with closing bugs as NEEDINFO if they file with 
non-English errors and the like, regardless of whether any additional 
technical measures to ensure English errors by default are taken.  Even in 
the event of real-locale-bug exceptions such as locale dependent alphanum 
ordering bugs, I'd say an entirely proper gentoo resolution is UPSTREAM.

So you see I much more agree with you than disagree.  I'm simply saying, 
let there be an override if the user insists, just as Gentoo normally lets 
the user override pretty much anything, if they insist.  As long as that 
override is there to be used if necessary, go for it!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Serkan Kaba wrote:

> On 25-04-2011 00:55, Duncan wrote:
>> 1) FEATURES=locale would be off by default, so portage would build
>> with POSIX locale by default.
> Will this feature effect the whole build process? This might cause
> locale dependent bugs (such as difference of capitalizations in
> Turkish or different letter order in some locales causing grep
> matches to fail) to go unnoticed.

Worse, for some packages, POSIX locale will cause the build process to
fail. See bug 343721 for an example.

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 08:14:28 +0200
Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:

> >>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Serkan Kaba wrote:
> 
> > On 25-04-2011 00:55, Duncan wrote:
> >> 1) FEATURES=locale would be off by default, so portage would build
> >> with POSIX locale by default.
> > Will this feature effect the whole build process? This might cause
> > locale dependent bugs (such as difference of capitalizations in
> > Turkish or different letter order in some locales causing grep
> > matches to fail) to go unnoticed.
> 
> Worse, for some packages, POSIX locale will cause the build process to
> fail. See bug 343721 for an example.

Not if we only (literally) fixed LC_MESSAGES, I should think. Or do we
have packages that screen-scrape error messages?


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[ragavender rao]

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Is there any command or way to directly read the pages in native language in
bugzilla?

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Ryan Hill]

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On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:31:30 +0200
Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi,
> I am quite getting annoyed by bugzilla attached outputs in various
> interesting languages like Portugalese or French. I can read Russian so
> that is at least bit ok :)
> 
> I can understand that it might be nice to user to see these messages in
> their native language, but it gets hell annoying when we have to figure
> out wtf is going on with their build when they attach it to the bug.
> 
> So I would like portage to filter/set environment the way it is always
> English.
> 
> Opinions?

You want to force English on all our users because you can't be bothered to
ask a reporter to repost an error message using LC_ALL=C?

For a growing portion of our user base it's not "nice" to see these messages
in their native language, it's fucking "necessary".


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Ryan Hill]

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On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:57:06 +0200
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <chithanh@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Alternatively, portage could alert the user to submit bug reports only
> with a C or English locale if a different one is detected.

+1


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:05:03 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> You want to force English on all our users because you can't be
> bothered to ask a reporter to repost an error message using LC_ALL=C?

Are you saying you are setting up the tree-wide project that
automatically translates LC_MESSAGES? Round of applause!

> For a growing portion of our user base it's not "nice" to see these
> messages in their native language, it's fucking "necessary".

Another round of applause for the appalling attitude.

Could you elaborate on the need to read error messages in your own
language? How is the sys-apps/portage translation project doing anyway?
Still only in Polish, hm? :)


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Michał Górny]

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On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 06:02:37 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:05:03 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > You want to force English on all our users because you can't be
> > bothered to ask a reporter to repost an error message using
> > LC_ALL=C?
> 
> Are you saying you are setting up the tree-wide project that
> automatically translates LC_MESSAGES? Round of applause!

Hm, that wouldn't be that hard, I think. Something like reverse-gettext
for a default set of build tools :D.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Ryan Hill]

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On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 06:02:37 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:05:03 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > You want to force English on all our users because you can't be
> > bothered to ask a reporter to repost an error message using LC_ALL=C?
> 
> Are you saying you are setting up the tree-wide project that
> automatically translates LC_MESSAGES? Round of applause!

Nope, but I am raising donations to fund an instructive manual on the usage
of the NEEDINFO resolution.

> > For a growing portion of our user base it's not "nice" to see these
> > messages in their native language, it's fucking "necessary".
> 
> Another round of applause for the appalling attitude.
> 
> Could you elaborate on the need to read error messages in your own
> language? How is the sys-apps/portage translation project doing anyway?
> Still only in Polish, hm? :)

Que?  Are you saying that because portage is in English that people that
don't speak English don't use Gentoo?  I would have to disagree.

If you think that getting the occasional bug report in a language you aren't
familiar with is annoying, imagine how not being able to get any build output
you can read might feel, especially if the reason is only because some dev
couldn't be bothered to occasionally ask someone to repost an error message in
English.

This reminds me of the time someone wanted to ban inline `emerge --info`
postings in bugzilla (ie. attachments only) because they found scrolling
through them bothersome.

In other words, suck it up.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:47:46 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> > Are you saying you are setting up the tree-wide project that
> > automatically translates LC_MESSAGES? Round of applause!
> 
> Nope, but I am raising donations to fund an instructive manual on the
> usage of the NEEDINFO resolution.

As already explained, requesting information and temporarily closing
bug reports happens a lot already, but usually greatly stalls a
bug's resolution. Developers have to make time to investigate the
problem and lose time when they have to wait for additional information
and need to reschedule.

> > > For a growing portion of our user base it's not "nice" to see
> > > these messages in their native language, it's fucking "necessary".
> > 
> > Another round of applause for the appalling attitude.
> > 
> > Could you elaborate on the need to read error messages in your own
> > language? How is the sys-apps/portage translation project doing
> > anyway? Still only in Polish, hm? :)
> 
> Que?  Are you saying that because portage is in English that people
> that don't speak English don't use Gentoo?  I would have to disagree.

Obvious straw man. 

> If you think that getting the occasional bug report in a language you
> aren't familiar with is annoying,

You are obviously unaware of the scale of the problem. Devoting time to
a bug becomes a serious problem when requested information takes a day
or more to arrive, if at all.

> imagine how not being able to get any build output you can read
> might feel, especially if the reason is only because some dev
> couldn't be bothered to occasionally ask someone to repost an error
> message in English.

You underestimate the vastness of my imagination.

> This reminds me of the time someone wanted to ban inline `emerge
> --info` postings in bugzilla (ie. attachments only) because they
> found scrolling through them bothersome.

I think you mean the time when I was requesting ATs not to post such
information on stabilisation bugs just to confirm it was alright to
stabilise. You know what? - I'll talk on that obviously tangential
argument. That (arch team specific) policy was apparently abandoned,
because it doesn't happen now. Perhaps I didn't cry victory on that one
--- perhaps I should have specially informed you, since you seem to
think this reflects on any future argument. A course in informal
logic might do you  well.

You still haven't elaborated on the need to read build output in
non-English, btw. You could have argued for non-English users' rights,
or pushed for that LC_MESSAGES auto-translation project (I wasn't
kidding), or you could have argued for a bug reporting tool that
includes all the right information in the right language automatically.

Look here, I am even willing to argue on your side just to possibly
extract a meaningful objection to fixing LC_MESSAGES in
sys-apps/portage.

I can explain my position better on having LC_MESSAGES in the same
language as sys-apps/portage appears to non-Polish readers, though.

When someone has to read the English error output that sys-apps/portage
tacks onto the end of the real error (possibly output long gone from
the scroll buffer because it was an early sub-make that failed),
doesn't want to go all technical and find that error message, and
therefore needs to be asked to attach the entire thing or does that of
her own accord, then why should the actual error message
("foo/include/header.h: No such file or directory", in Simplified
Chinese) be printed in a language the developer cannot read?

The user only cares about using blender or openoffice - the user
couldn't care less about the crufty build system of a DEPEND packages
needed only at build time, or the language it prints.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Jeroen Roovers schrieb:
> Look here, I am even willing to argue on your side just to possibly
> extract a meaningful objection to fixing LC_MESSAGES in
> sys-apps/portage.

I now tend to agree that LC_MESSAGES should be set to C by default.
However I suggest to put it in the default make.conf, together with a
comment "remove this line if you want build messages in your locale"


Regards,
Chi-Thanh Christopher Nguyen

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[ross smith]

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2011/4/27 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <chithanh@gentoo.org>

> Jeroen Roovers schrieb:
> > Look here, I am even willing to argue on your side just to possibly
> > extract a meaningful objection to fixing LC_MESSAGES in
> > sys-apps/portage.
>
> I now tend to agree that LC_MESSAGES should be set to C by default.
> However I suggest to put it in the default make.conf, together with a
> comment "remove this line if you want build messages in your locale"
>
> Perhaps with a warning that bugs should be filed with LC_MESSAGES set to C.

-Ross


> Regards,
> Chi-Thanh Christopher Nguyen
>
>

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Ryan Hill]

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On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 18:26:02 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:47:46 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > > Are you saying you are setting up the tree-wide project that
> > > automatically translates LC_MESSAGES? Round of applause!
> > 
> > Nope, but I am raising donations to fund an instructive manual on the
> > usage of the NEEDINFO resolution.
> 
> As already explained, requesting information and temporarily closing
> bug reports happens a lot already, but usually greatly stalls a
> bug's resolution. Developers have to make time to investigate the
> problem and lose time when they have to wait for additional information
> and need to reschedule.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but the number of times I've had a bug where such a
conversation had to take place could be counted on my toes.  I imagine being
a bug wrangler you see it far more often, but what are we talking here?
1/100?  1/500?  Can you compare this to the number of times that someone
doesn't include emerge --info, which has a similar halting effect?

And yes, the times I have gotten non-english errors in bug reports I have
found it annoying.  It just hasn't happen often enough to have driven me
crazy, which may be the case here.

> > Que?  Are you saying that because portage is in English that people
> > that don't speak English don't use Gentoo?  I would have to disagree.
> 
> Obvious straw man. 

Working for the font team a couple years ago I went to some of the
language-specific mailing lists asking if there was any language-specific
fonts people required that weren't yet in Gentoo.  I had to work through
interpreters because many of the people I wanted to talk to didn't speak a
lick of English.

> > imagine how not being able to get any build output you can read
> > might feel, especially if the reason is only because some dev
> > couldn't be bothered to occasionally ask someone to repost an error
> > message in English.
> 
> You underestimate the vastness of my imagination.

Okay...  I'm not actually sure what that means.

> > This reminds me of the time someone wanted to ban inline `emerge
> > --info` postings in bugzilla (ie. attachments only) because they
> > found scrolling through them bothersome.
> 
> I think you mean the time when I was requesting ATs not to post such
> information on stabilisation bugs just to confirm it was alright to
> stabilise.

No, it wasn't you.  I would have remembered.  This person was talking in the
general sense.  And it was a silly reason, not like yours.

> You still haven't elaborated on the need to read build output in
> non-English, btw. You could have argued for non-English users' rights,
> or pushed for that LC_MESSAGES auto-translation project (I wasn't
> kidding), or you could have argued for a bug reporting tool that
> includes all the right information in the right language automatically.

I _am_ arguing for non-English user's rights.  That's the whole reason I'm
here, annoying you and whatnot.

> When someone has to read the English error output that sys-apps/portage
> tacks onto the end of the real error (possibly output long gone from
> the scroll buffer because it was an early sub-make that failed),
> doesn't want to go all technical and find that error message, and
> therefore needs to be asked to attach the entire thing or does that of
> her own accord, then why should the actual error message
> ("foo/include/header.h: No such file or directory", in Simplified
> Chinese) be printed in a language the developer cannot read?

See, you're thinking primarily in terms of bugzilla.  Like the only reason
someone would want to see this stuff is to paste it to a bug report for a
developer to look at.  I'm saying someone who doesn't speak English at all
(who won't be filing bugs btw) might want to be able to understand the error
the compiler just dumped on them without needing a translator.

But whatever, I appear to be the only person who has a problem with this.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:10:55 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I _am_ arguing for non-English user's rights.  That's the whole
> reason I'm here, annoying you and whatnot.

Great, now we're getting somewhere.

> See, you're thinking primarily in terms of bugzilla.  Like the only
> reason someone would want to see this stuff is to paste it to a bug
> report for a developer to look at.  I'm saying someone who doesn't
> speak English at all (who won't be filing bugs btw) might want to be
> able to understand the error the compiler just dumped on them without
> needing a translator.

I countered that with the argument that if users cannot read "No such
file or directory" then they cannot read "ERROR: app-arch/rpm-4.4.6-r7
failed (compile phase)" either. How does that work?

> But whatever, I appear to be the only person who has a problem with
> this.

But you just said "I _am_ arguing for non-English user's rights"! :-)


     jer

[gentoo-dev] Re: Disabling locale at emerge output

[Ryan Hill]

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On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:00:23 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:10:55 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
 
> > See, you're thinking primarily in terms of bugzilla.  Like the only
> > reason someone would want to see this stuff is to paste it to a bug
> > report for a developer to look at.  I'm saying someone who doesn't
> > speak English at all (who won't be filing bugs btw) might want to be
> > able to understand the error the compiler just dumped on them without
> > needing a translator.
> 
> I countered that with the argument that if users cannot read "No such
> file or directory" then they cannot read "ERROR: app-arch/rpm-4.4.6-r7
> failed (compile phase)" either. How does that work?

Why would you need to read that?  See compiler error, portage explodes,
lots of red stars everywhere.  If I can read the compiler error I know what
happened.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                  it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets                           but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

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