[gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

Hi,
With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
on the latest changes:
1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
official GLEP.
3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]

Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
feedback. 

[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28985
[2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0038.html
[3] http://curtis119.no-ip.org/forum-guide.xml


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

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Haas Wernfried wrote:
[...]
> Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> feedback. 

I'll repeat myself, but I think that if you don't require current
moderators to pass the staffing quiz, you're against the point of
"Moderator as an authority".

There are several possible solutions:
a) Require all the existing moderators to do the quiz in some time
(months?). Please don't say that it is hard, I've done it myself ;-).
b) Introduce another "moderator degree" called "Unofficial Moderator".

I think that b) is stupid, so I vote for a). Having two degress would
only cause confusion, IMHO. I beleive that moderators can find some time
for them to pass that quiz.

-jkt


-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 09:47:02PM +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Haas Wernfried wrote:
> [...]
> > Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> > feedback. 
> 
> I'll repeat myself, but I think that if you don't require current
> moderators to pass the staffing quiz, you're against the point of
> "Moderator as an authority".
> 
> There are several possible solutions:
> a) Require all the existing moderators to do the quiz in some time
> (months?). Please don't say that it is hard, I've done it myself ;-).

Agreed 100%. I think current moderator should take the quiz so they can
gain the same status as those who will take it.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
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       o o                           (      FREE      )
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| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
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+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 10:31:04PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 09:47:02PM +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > There are several possible solutions:
> > a) Require all the existing moderators to do the quiz in some time
> > (months?). Please don't say that it is hard, I've done it myself ;-).
> 
> Agreed 100%. I think current moderator should take the quiz so they can
> gain the same status as those who will take it.

As much i agree myself that it would be great if all current
moderators took the quiz the two problems described in my previous
mail [1] still exist. What would you suggest to do with the people
that are either unable (because they don't speak English (well)) to
take it or not willing to do it?
There is no way to force it on them and firing them is not an option.

Personally, i'd like to see all of the existing moderators take the
quiz, i assume it may be something like two thirds.

[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28989

cheers,
	Wernfried

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Monday 27 June 2005 22:50, Haas Wernfried wrote:
> What would you suggest to do with the people 
> that are either unable (because they don't speak English (well)) to
> take it or not willing to do it?
If they aren't willing to take it... that's not a problem.
For people who doesn't speak english there can always be the option of 
translating the quiz and let it validated by native speaker or the result 
being translated by someone who can speak that.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 11:07:50PM +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Monday 27 June 2005 22:50, Haas Wernfried wrote:
> > What would you suggest to do with the people 
> > that are either unable (because they don't speak English (well)) to
> > take it or not willing to do it?
> If they aren't willing to take it... that's not a problem.

Imho not, according to Jan and Fernando it is. As said, i don't see a
real solution to this except accepting the fact some moderators won't
become official.

> For people who doesn't speak english there can always be the option of 
> translating the quiz and let it validated by native speaker or the result 
> being translated by someone who can speak that.

We also had this idea at some point, but according to the devrel
handbook this isn't an option: 
"This also entails a strong grasp of the English language." [1]

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/mentor.xml

cheers,
	Wernfried


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Monday 27 June 2005 23:20, Haas Wernfried wrote:
> Imho not, according to Jan and Fernando it is. As said, i don't see a
> real solution to this except accepting the fact some moderators won't
> become official.
Exactly that, Chris said exaclty what i meant.

> We also had this idea at some point, but according to the devrel
> handbook this isn't an option:
> "This also entails a strong grasp of the English language." [1]
Ok this is another problem, and requires a solution.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 11:07:50PM +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Monday 27 June 2005 22:50, Haas Wernfried wrote:
> > What would you suggest to do with the people 
> > that are either unable (because they don't speak English (well)) to
> > take it or not willing to do it?
> If they aren't willing to take it... that's not a problem.
> For people who doesn't speak english there can always be the option of 
> translating the quiz and let it validated by native speaker or the result 
> being translated by someone who can speak that.

I thought 'official Gentoo members' should speak English fluently in
order to comunicate with the rest of the community.

If you guys want to be 'gentoo staff' fine, but please try to follow the
same rules we do.

Of course I might be totally wrong here...

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
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       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
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|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

As far as I have read all these replies, I see nobody understood
anything at all about existing moderators. These people have done a
great job to the community and _NOBODY_ will push them around. If they
do not want to bcome staff, they won't as simple as that.

Get in the situation that because of a new internal policy, 33% of the
developers have to be kicked away let's just say (exemplum gratia)
they do not play nor like basketball. As you see it's completely
senseless. The same happens with the above.

So please, stop taking it with people that have been there for years
doing their job and simply consider innecesary to become official
gentoo staff.

About mods should speak English, well, NOT International mods. There
is simply no such need. What we need them is to keep things in order
in international forums and give support to users in their own
language. The quiz translation might be a point but, our point of view
is that only admins and global mods should firstly take the quiz staff
if they want.

P.S. And bear in mind that I _will_ take the quiz.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
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<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 23:50 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> As far as I have read all these replies, I see nobody understood
> anything at all about existing moderators. These people have done a
> great job to the community and _NOBODY_ will push them around. If they
> do not want to bcome staff, they won't as simple as that.

Unfortunately, I'm just not feeling that.

If you have Global Moderators and Administrators that are not willing to
become staff, then why are you asking for this?  You do realize that
this means that there will be much more control placed on what goes on
in the forums.  Currently, the forums are treated almost as an
independent entity, much like the GWN.  If you decide you want to become
official members of the Gentoo project, then you get what comes with it,
both good and bad.

> Get in the situation that because of a new internal policy, 33% of the
> developers have to be kicked away let's just say (exemplum gratia)
> they do not play nor like basketball. As you see it's completely
> senseless. The same happens with the above.

A new internal policy that their peers decided to envoke.  We didn't
come up with this idea, the forum moderators did.

Remember that before you go pointing fingers at anyone.

> So please, stop taking it with people that have been there for years
> doing their job and simply consider innecesary to become official
> gentoo staff.

However, you have brought up a GLEP that some of us feel *would* make it
necessary for them to become staff.

> About mods should speak English, well, NOT International mods. There
> is simply no such need. What we need them is to keep things in order
> in international forums and give support to users in their own
> language. The quiz translation might be a point but, our point of view
> is that only admins and global mods should firstly take the quiz staff
> if they want.

I agree that forum-specific moderators should not be required to take
the quiz.  I also believe that any *global* forum staff *should* be
required to, native-English speaker or not.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 22:50 +0200, Haas Wernfried wrote:
> > > a) Require all the existing moderators to do the quiz in some time
> > > (months?). Please don't say that it is hard, I've done it myself ;-).
> > 
> > Agreed 100%. I think current moderator should take the quiz so they can
> > gain the same status as those who will take it.
> 
> As much i agree myself that it would be great if all current
> moderators took the quiz the two problems described in my previous
> mail [1] still exist. What would you suggest to do with the people
> that are either unable (because they don't speak English (well)) to
> take it or not willing to do it?

If they do not speak the language well, I'm sure we can find someone to
translate the quiz and their answers between English and their native
tongue.

As for unwilling to take the quiz, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't
find that acceptable.  Giving any official status to the Gentoo
moderators needs to be an all or nothing deal.  It would be especially
confusing to our users to have both "official" and "unofficial" Gentoo
staff for moderators.  I know this sounds a bit harsh, but if someone
refuses to take the developer quiz, they don't become a developer.  If
someone refuses to take the staff quiz, then they don't become a member
of the staff.

> There is no way to force it on them and firing them is not an option.

Why not?

> Personally, i'd like to see all of the existing moderators take the
> quiz, i assume it may be something like two thirds.
> 
> [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28989

Then, in my opinion, I'd see 1/3 of the moderators getting the boot.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 05:19:18PM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> If they do not speak the language well, I'm sure we can find someone to
> translate the quiz and their answers between English and their native
> tongue.

Not an option, English is a requirement. See my previous mail.

> As for unwilling to take the quiz, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't
> find that acceptable.  Giving any official status to the Gentoo
> moderators needs to be an all or nothing deal.  It would be especially
> confusing to our users to have both "official" and "unofficial" Gentoo
> staff for moderators.  I know this sounds a bit harsh, but if someone
> refuses to take the developer quiz, they don't become a developer.  If
> someone refuses to take the staff quiz, then they don't become a member
> of the staff.
I agree it may still be a bit confusing to some users and i agree
those who don't take the quiz won't become an official member.

> > There is no way to force it on them and firing them is not an option.
> Why not?
You're not serious, are you?
These people have dedicated a lot of work to the forums and
Gentoo. They are doing a great job. Why fire them?

> > Personally, i'd like to see all of the existing moderators take the
> > quiz, i assume it may be something like two thirds.
> Then, in my opinion, I'd see 1/3 of the moderators getting the boot.
You're still not serious, are you?
The purpose of this GLEP is to solve a problem that was introduced a
while ago. Giving 1/3 of the mods the boot isn't exactly my definition
of solving a problem. What if there is no outcome with this GLEP, will
everybody get the boot who isn't a developer then?
I think the current suggestion in the GLEP is the best we can
achieve. Old moderators may take the quiz, new moderators must. Given
enough time all old moderators may retire sooner or later and one day
all active moderators will be official.

cheers,
	Wernfried

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/27/05, Haas Wernfried <w.haas@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> I think the current suggestion in the GLEP is the best we can
> achieve. Old moderators may take the quiz, new moderators must. Given
> enough time all old moderators may retire sooner or later and one day
> all active moderators will be official.
> 
> cheers,
>         Wernfried


I'd simply would like to remark that sentence.


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
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<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

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FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 23:55 +0200, Haas Wernfried wrote:
> > > There is no way to force it on them and firing them is not an option.
> > Why not?
> You're not serious, are you?
> These people have dedicated a lot of work to the forums and
> Gentoo. They are doing a great job. Why fire them?

You're asking for Gentoo to make you guys "official".  There are certain
things that come with this, both good and bad.  We can't go around
making special exceptions for everyone.  It is just that simple.

> > > Personally, i'd like to see all of the existing moderators take the
> > > quiz, i assume it may be something like two thirds.
> > Then, in my opinion, I'd see 1/3 of the moderators getting the boot.
> You're still not serious, are you?

Yes, I am.  That is why I said it.

> The purpose of this GLEP is to solve a problem that was introduced a
> while ago. Giving 1/3 of the mods the boot isn't exactly my definition
> of solving a problem. What if there is no outcome with this GLEP, will
> everybody get the boot who isn't a developer then?

If nothing happens with the GLEP, then nothing happens.  Nobody goes
anywhere and nobody becomes an "official" member of the project.

> I think the current suggestion in the GLEP is the best we can
> achieve. Old moderators may take the quiz, new moderators must. Given
> enough time all old moderators may retire sooner or later and one day
> all active moderators will be official.

I just don't see it the same way as you.  I agree with having all new
*global* moderators taking the quiz.  However, I completely disagree
with you that we should have *some* global moderators that have become
official Gentoo representatives, while others have not.  It simply
causes too much confusion and makes things a serious pain to manage.
Either the forums become a much more controlled (as in global mods have
to be staff) environment, or they stay the same.  I just don't see how
any middle ground would be feasible without an enormous amount of
managerial overhead that seems like a complete waste of time to me.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I think the current suggestion in the GLEP is the best we can
> > achieve. Old moderators may take the quiz, new moderators must. Given
> > enough time all old moderators may retire sooner or later and one day
> > all active moderators will be official.
> 
> I just don't see it the same way as you.  I agree with having all new
> *global* moderators taking the quiz.  However, I completely disagree
> with you that we should have *some* global moderators that have become
> official Gentoo representatives, while others have not.  It simply
> causes too much confusion and makes things a serious pain to manage.
> Either the forums become a much more controlled (as in global mods have
> to be staff) environment, or they stay the same.  I just don't see how
> any middle ground would be feasible without an enormous amount of
> managerial overhead that seems like a complete waste of time to me.
> 

What I do not understand here is where is the confussion. We accept
the fact that if any mod/admin wants to become staff, he's got to take
the quiz. In our first version of the GLEP, there was a backwards
compatibility section that explained that existing mods/admins
wouldn't have to take the quiz. That was our internal global consensus
and obviously the rest of existing developers do not agree with it.
It's just that you do not let us take care of our own things.

Even thought that, we did agree about the quiz thing. Unfortunately,
some people of our team, with who we agreed on an initial instance are
not frustrated by this. So the best solution I see so everyone gets
his share and have an intermediate position, nor our initial consensus
nor the strict proposal of developers. That is to say, let every
single mod decide if he/she wants to become Gentoo Staff or not.

As I said above, I do not understand why it is so confusing.
Mods/admins that do not become staff, would retire sooner or later as
stated by Haas Wernfried, so in the end all mods/admins will be
official Gentoo Staff. We could have a transitory time in here for
them.

About the language: all global mods do speak (write) English fluently.
That is too obvious. Global Mods and Admins can take the quiz in
English with no problem. The problem comes with our fellow
International Forum Mods, who do not have to meet that requirement as
they won't be doing their job in English. This means that their
English level can be low enough, just to keep up the communication
with the rest of the team. We also have to think that many people in
the Gentoo Forums do not have a good English level and precisely
*that* is the reason International Forums exist. If everyone had a
good English level, International Forums and International Forum
Moderators wouldn't be required, but that's not the case.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

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FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Michael Tindal]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 08:44 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > I think the current suggestion in the GLEP is the best we can
> > > achieve. Old moderators may take the quiz, new moderators must. Given
> > > enough time all old moderators may retire sooner or later and one day
> > > all active moderators will be official.
> > 
> > I just don't see it the same way as you.  I agree with having all new
> > *global* moderators taking the quiz.  However, I completely disagree
> > with you that we should have *some* global moderators that have become
> > official Gentoo representatives, while others have not.  It simply
> > causes too much confusion and makes things a serious pain to manage.
> > Either the forums become a much more controlled (as in global mods have
> > to be staff) environment, or they stay the same.  I just don't see how
> > any middle ground would be feasible without an enormous amount of
> > managerial overhead that seems like a complete waste of time to me.
> > 
> 
> What I do not understand here is where is the confussion. We accept
> the fact that if any mod/admin wants to become staff, he's got to take
> the quiz. In our first version of the GLEP, there was a backwards
> compatibility section that explained that existing mods/admins
> wouldn't have to take the quiz. That was our internal global consensus
> and obviously the rest of existing developers do not agree with it.
> It's just that you do not let us take care of our own things.

You want to become official.  In that regard, you do not get to take
care of your own things anymore.  If that was the case, there would be
no control over the direction developers take, and there would be no use
for any kind of managers, or developer relations, or anything like that.

> Even thought that, we did agree about the quiz thing. Unfortunately,
> some people of our team, with who we agreed on an initial instance are
> not frustrated by this. So the best solution I see so everyone gets
> his share and have an intermediate position, nor our initial consensus
> nor the strict proposal of developers. That is to say, let every
> single mod decide if he/she wants to become Gentoo Staff or not.

If we say half of the global moderators are staff, and the other half
are not, how are users supposed to know the difference?  Once you become
official, the statements made by the forum moderators/administrators are
pretty much official statements of Gentoo (to the user anyway).  In that
regard, its not proper to have a half-way period.  Every developer and
staff has taken the quiz, I fail to see what makes forum mods so special
they deserve an exception;

> As I said above, I do not understand why it is so confusing.
> Mods/admins that do not become staff, would retire sooner or later as
> stated by Haas Wernfried, so in the end all mods/admins will be
> official Gentoo Staff. We could have a transitory time in here for
> them.

Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
developer for Gentoo has to follow.

> About the language: all global mods do speak (write) English fluently.
> That is too obvious. Global Mods and Admins can take the quiz in
> English with no problem. The problem comes with our fellow
> International Forum Mods, who do not have to meet that requirement as
> they won't be doing their job in English. This means that their
> English level can be low enough, just to keep up the communication
> with the rest of the team. We also have to think that many people in
> the Gentoo Forums do not have a good English level and precisely
> *that* is the reason International Forums exist. If everyone had a
> good English level, International Forums and International Forum
> Moderators wouldn't be required, but that's not the case.

I don't believe anyone here has stated the forum-specific moderators
would have to take the quiz, since forum-specific moderators won't be
considered staff.  If however, they wanted to become global moderators,
then they would be required to take the quiz.

Mike Tindal

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 08:44 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> About the language: all global mods do speak (write) English fluently.
> That is too obvious. Global Mods and Admins can take the quiz in
> English with no problem. The problem comes with our fellow
> International Forum Mods, who do not have to meet that requirement as
> they won't be doing their job in English. This means that their
> English level can be low enough, just to keep up the communication
> with the rest of the team. We also have to think that many people in
> the Gentoo Forums do not have a good English level and precisely
> *that* is the reason International Forums exist. If everyone had a
> good English level, International Forums and International Forum
> Moderators wouldn't be required, but that's not the case.

Are you even listening to me?

I have said *NUMEROUS TIMES NOW* that I agree that only *GLOBAL*
moderators should be required to take the test.

Now, allow me to point out the dead horse that you are beating.  He
doesn't like it anymore.

Thank you,

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

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Haas Wernfried wrote:
>>>There is no way to force it on them and firing them is not an option.
>>
>>Why not?
> 
> You're not serious, are you?
> These people have dedicated a lot of work to the forums and
> Gentoo. They are doing a great job. Why fire them?

Noone wants to fire them. They want to join the staff, so they have to
accept staffing requirements.

Is it *really* such a PITA to read that quiz and write proper answers?
Isn't that kewl email alias @gentoo.org sufficient reward for an hour of
reading docs and writing answers?

You (the Global Moderators) want to join the staff, okay, so let's write
several answers and everyone will be happy. If you won't moderate the
forum for one hour and write the answers instead, you'll get it.

IMHO "you" are just making a mountain out of a molehill.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:09:41 +0200
Haas Wernfried <w.haas@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:

> Hi,
> With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
> we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
> on the latest changes:
> 1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
> 2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
> official GLEP.
> 3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
> the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]
> 
> Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> feedback. 

ok, looks like the current hot topic is that not all global moderators/
site admins want/can become staff members for unspecified reasons.

(the GLEP says that everyone wanting to become a staff member has to
take the quiz, so I take that as a given)

Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status? 

Marius

PS: I'm ignoring the national forum moderator issue on purpose for now.

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

> Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
> global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status?

Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group. 
To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.

Nitro: Not necessary, [1]
amne: Will take
BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
curtis119: Has recently taken it 
Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread, the 
main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo staff 
without taking the staff quiz.
Earthwings: Will take
ian!: Will take
kallamej: Will take
klieber: Not necessary, [1]
Maedhros: Will take
masseya: Don't know, but he thinks the glep is a really good idea.
phong: Don't know, inactive
pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
pjp: Not necessary, [1] 
plate: Not necessary, [1]
puggy: Not necessary, [1]
rac: Not necessary, [1]
tomk: Not necessary, [1]

[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/roll-call/userinfo.xml

Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Anders Hellgren <andh@1-2-12-5a.gfa.gbg.bostream.se> wrote:
> Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread, the
> main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo staff
> without taking the staff quiz.

Sorry for that, just tried to keep the discussion alive. I assume all
consequences. As I said before:

Deathiwng00: Will take

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Allen Parker]

On 6/28/05, Ioannis Aslanidis <aslanidis@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Sorry for that, just tried to keep the discussion alive. I assume all
<snip>

It's alive enough without your constant/irrelevant bitching. You're a
forum moderator which = staff, not developer. If you think that you're
making an argument that actually makes any sense whatsoever, I invite
you to click "expand all" in this thread and read some of your
valuable "contributions." IMHO having anyone besides the "gentoo is
for ricers" crowd able to view some of the things said in the forums
at all is a PR nightmare. I'd rather NOT have my clients know that
every 13 year old pimply faced boy on earth that is learning linux is
using my distribution. If you prefer the forums, more power to you, I
think it'd be a more efficient use of bandwidth and space to replace
your beloved forums with a wiki (and it'd probably be easier for
people to navigate as well.)

The issue isn't that some people do or do not like forums in general,
the gentoo forums, or having forum moderators/admins. My current issue
is that you, by playing devil's advocate, Ioannis, are doing nothing
other than trolling. In the past, behaviors such as yours... have been
described by Daniel Robbins as being a "freak" (see his articles on
making your own distro on ibm.com).

News flash: your repeated arguments and questionable signature* make
me wonder exactly how important you really think you are.

* see my comments below:
> --
> Ioannis Aslanidis
> 
> <deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
> <deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
> <aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
> <dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>
that's nice that you have multiple gpg keys and email addresses... do
we really need a list of all of them? no? didn't think so.

> Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
very noble project -- no comments there

> FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
hrm... windows? yup, that's relevant to gentoo...

> Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
holy crap... you spelled it right in the project name, but not in your
signature? nice blank page, anyway...

> Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)
Holy shit! You're a global forum mod? that means you have to take the
quiz, right? hrm... so why don't you take the time you've spent
emailing the list... and take the damned quiz and stop whining
already? unless you already did, which... if you HAVE... then you
should just shut up and let OTHER people that really DO have a problem
(that are forum mods/admins) speak up... because you're the only
jackass making noise on this issue.

Thanks everyone for putting up with my rant... Ioannis, don't reply to
me personally or on-list, i don't care what you have to say, you've
done a very good job of showing me exactly *WHY* I avoid the forums at
all costs.

(and if anyone comments that I sound like mike frysinger in this
post... they can stuff it.)

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:21:12AM -0800, Allen Parker wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Ioannis Aslanidis <aslanidis@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Sorry for that, just tried to keep the discussion alive. I assume all
> <snip>
> 
> It's alive enough without your constant/irrelevant bitching. You're a
> forum moderator which = staff, not developer. If you think that you're
> making an argument that actually makes any sense whatsoever, I invite
> you to click "expand all" in this thread and read some of your
> valuable "contributions." IMHO having anyone besides the "gentoo is
> for ricers" crowd able to view some of the things said in the forums
> at all is a PR nightmare. I'd rather NOT have my clients know that
> every 13 year old pimply faced boy on earth that is learning linux is
> using my distribution. If you prefer the forums, more power to you, I
> think it'd be a more efficient use of bandwidth and space to replace
> your beloved forums with a wiki (and it'd probably be easier for
> people to navigate as well.)

What was that about irrelevant bitching again?

> 
> The issue isn't that some people do or do not like forums in general,
> the gentoo forums, or having forum moderators/admins. My current issue
> is that you, by playing devil's advocate, Ioannis, are doing nothing
> other than trolling. In the past, behaviors such as yours... have been
> described by Daniel Robbins as being a "freak" (see his articles on
> making your own distro on ibm.com).

I think before posting you should perhaps take a step back and think: 
"Am I making myself look like a bigger asshat than the other guy?"

Please try to refrain from posting any more stupid flames to what is 
supposed to be a productive development list. This is not USENET.

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Allen Parker]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:21:12AM -0800, Allen Parker wrote:
> I think before posting you should perhaps take a step back and think:
> "Am I making myself look like a bigger asshat than the other guy?"
I knew I was making myself look like an asshat ;-) that was the
_point_ of the post.
 
> Please try to refrain from posting any more stupid flames to what is
> supposed to be a productive development list. This is not USENET.
If this is a development list, why exactly are we having discussion
about the forums in the first place?

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Allen Parker <infowolfe@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please try to refrain from posting any more stupid flames to what is
> > supposed to be a productive development list. This is not USENET.
> If this is a development list, why exactly are we having discussion
> about the forums in the first place?

To take feedback from developers. Keep in mind that in the end we'll
have to agree on the final result.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:37, Anders Hellgren wrote:
> Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group.
> To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.
If those are all, then the problem doesn't seems to exists.
Most of them already took it, the others will take it, the inactive ones can 
be "suspended" until they came back and then decide.

For the minority of uncertain.. they always can decide "quiz or leave".
It's just a quiz *you* are asking for as already Chris and Fernando said, as 
to be official Gentoo staff/developers (this was just a bit of confusion as 
the gentoo docs consider everyones "developers" so the problem is not staff 
or developers being different, but just the need for a cleanup of terms.

And until you don't figure on roll-call after taking a quiz, you can't be 
considered "Official Staff/Developers", so you can't just say "we're 
official", also ATs getting developers must take the quiz, so you see that 
the quiz *is* a fundamental part of it.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:

> On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:37, Anders Hellgren wrote:
>> Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group.
>> To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.
> If those are all, then the problem doesn't seems to exists.

Exactly.

> Most of them already took it

...or are pre quiz staff.


Again, noone's ever intended that anyone should become official Gentoo 
staff without taking the staff quiz. Now, some people seem to have a 
problem with someone being global moderator or admin without being 
official staff. I don't, and I have no intention on booting anyone, should 
there be anyone, who don't want to go through the process to become 
official Gentoo staff.

FWIW, there are non-staff bug wranglers, aren't there? To me, that's 
essentially the same thing as non-staff moderators.

Going back to the beginning, the status of the Forums is somewhat 
undefined as is is not listed on [1], but there are still people on [2] 
who have the Forums as responsibility. Our purpose with the glep was 
twofold. One is to put the Forums somewhere on [1]. In fact, it always 
should have been there. The second, that being *Forum* staff should be 
enough reason to become official Gentoo staff. The latter requiring taking 
the staff quiz. Nevertheless, we do not want to force anyone to become 
official Gentoo staff.


[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/index.xml
[2]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/roll-call/userinfo.xml

Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I was poked about this. OK, looks like many developers didn't like
what I've post in here plus I was somewhat recriminated.

*****
My most sincere excuses if I trolled or annoyed anyone. It was not
intentional.
*****

About "From: Allen Parker <infowolfe@gmail.com>" reply... I'll make
no comments on that. This is no way of speaking to anyone.


- -- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager
(http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili



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-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:29, Anders Hellgren wrote:
> > Most of them already took it
> ...or are pre quiz staff.
Ok I was intending both of the cases but that's more clear.

> Again, noone's ever intended that anyone should become official Gentoo
> staff without taking the staff quiz.

> Now, some people seem to have a 
> problem with someone being global moderator or admin without being
> official staff.
No that's not the issue. The issue is that if you want that global moderators 
have the right to vote (that was the main request done iirc), then they must 
be official staff, and to be that, they need to take the quiz.
Having some global mods staff (just because they are mods, not because they 
are staff for other means) and some not, will confuse the userbase.
As we said, most of the global mods are already staff so already have the 
right to vote, so if you don't want to change this, there's nothing to 
discuss about: if an individual wants the right to vote, it just needs to be 
staff for other reasons.

If you want that "Global Moderator == Offical Staff", you need that all of 
them take the quiz and become official staff.

> I don't, and I have no intention on booting anyone, should 
> there be anyone, who don't want to go through the process to become
> official Gentoo staff.
As I said above, if you want project global mods to be considered staff for 
the own sake of being global mods, it's an all or nothing for me.

> FWIW, there are non-staff bug wranglers, aren't there? To me, that's
> essentially the same thing as non-staff moderators.
For local moderator, yes. As for ATs.
But it's clear to user that bug-wranglers or ATs aren't Official Staff:
"  A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not 
official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the 
Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when selecting 
email signatures or other forms of communication. " [1]

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1
-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:

> On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:29, Anders Hellgren wrote:
>
>> Now, some people seem to have a
>> problem with someone being global moderator or admin without being
>> official staff.
> No that's not the issue. The issue is that if you want that global moderators
> have the right to vote (that was the main request done iirc), then they must
> be official staff, and to be that, they need to take the quiz.
> Having some global mods staff (just because they are mods, not because they
> are staff for other means) and some not, will confuse the userbase.
> As we said, most of the global mods are already staff so already have the
> right to vote, so if you don't want to change this, there's nothing to
> discuss about: if an individual wants the right to vote, it just needs to be
> staff for other reasons.
>
> If you want that "Global Moderator == Offical Staff", you need that all of
> them take the quiz and become official staff.

Please see the rest of my previous post. We have not proposed to make 
global moderators official staff without taking the quiz. What we have 
said is that future global mods should become official staff and hence 
take the quiz, but we want the current mods to be able to choose not to 
become official staff but still be able to remain moderator. Should anyone 
decide that's want they want, they will not become official staff and 
hence not get any voting rights.

>> FWIW, there are non-staff bug wranglers, aren't there? To me, that's
>> essentially the same thing as non-staff moderators.
> For local moderator, yes. As for ATs.
> But it's clear to user that bug-wranglers or ATs aren't Official Staff:
> "  A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not
> official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the
> Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when selecting
> email signatures or other forms of communication. " [1]
>
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1

I'd say that any user seeing his bug being RESOLVED DUPLICATE sees that 
action as an official one even if it was a non-staffer who marked it such.

Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Duncan]

Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò posted
<200506281255.41021@enterprise.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org>, excerpted below,
on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:55:35 +0200:

> And until you don't figure on roll-call after taking a quiz, you can't
> be considered "Official Staff/Developers", so you can't just say "we're
> official", also ATs getting developers must take the quiz, so you see
> that the quiz *is* a fundamental part of it.

FWIW as a prospective AT myself...  The current amd64 AT requirements, at
least, require taking not only the "staff" quiz, but the full ebuild quiz,
so it's NOT just ATs becoming devs, but ALL (at least amd64) ATs, AND
it's the full ebuild quiz the devs must pass. (I can't say about other
archs, but there's only one such non-amd64 AT so far, on ppc64, and I
wouldn't be surprised if he had to take the full ebuild quiz as well.)

>From the amd64 AT documentation:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1

<quote>
Prospective AT's will have to pass the ebuild quiz, currently here.
</quote>

("Here" points to the ebuild quiz
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt )

Further to the point made elsewhere, but without the source reference,
further quote from the first link above:

<quote>
A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not
official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the
Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when
selecting email signatures or other forms of communication.
</quote>

So, yes, ATs take not only the staff quiz, but the full ebuild quiz. 
Further, the expectation is clear that they will be held to "professional"
conduct standards.  For me, that will probably mean giving up my
references to "MSWormOS", at least if and when I choose to identify
myself as an AT.

On the thread subject...

It seems to me there's really not a lot of controversy, only the sides
keep talking past each other and making it more than it is.

Both sides seem to agree that moderators of individual forums shouldn't
have to take the quiz, eliminating the problem of the i11l forums ESL
(English-second-language) mods.

Only the global mods and admins would have to take it, and they all know
English pretty well as a defining characteristic of their job, so the
requirement to take the quiz (and know English well enough to communicate
decently in the Gentoo staff community) shouldn't be an issue.

Further, many of the global mods are already staff/devs, and of those that
aren't, there are only three who haven't said they plan on taking it
anyway, and two of those are inactive.

Thus, the whole debate is over one person, who has expressed a reluctance
to take it but has said (s)he will if necessary.

IMO, that makes it pretty much a non-issue.  If the global mods wish to
make that position official Gentoo staff, and vote among themselves to do
so, there should be no exceptions.  If the one (or either inactive)
global-mod who has concerns chooses not to take the quiz, simply make that
person a individual forum moderator, but just list every forum in the list
of forums they get mod rights in, thus effectively making them a global
mod in all but name, which, if global-mod is to now mean Gentoo staff and
they haven't become Gentoo staff yet, is effectively what they'd be anyway.

OTOH, the global mods, now seeing what it would mean, and that many
already have staff/dev status anyway, could actually decide they don't
want or need Gentoo staff status as part of the global mod description
after all.  They could remain as they are.  It would be perfectly
reasonable for one or more global mods to change their vote out of respect
for the single individual that has expressed reluctance, and to rescind
the GLEP before official vote of the existing Gentoo staff and devs on it.
Things would continue as they are now, and any individual global mod, as
anyone else, could still become a Gentoo dev or Gentoo staff member
independently.

So...  I don't have a vote, but I'd vote yes on a GLEP that made the
forums a Gentoo project and required the global moderators to become
Gentoo staff -- assuming of course they didn't decide they didn't want
that, after all.  No exemptions for individual global mods, but no
exemptions needed, because most are or have expressed an intention to
become staff anyway, with only one person expressing reservations, and if
that person chooses not to, they effectively simply become an individual
forum mod, who happens to have mod rights in /every/ individual forum, so
nothing's lost but the name, IMO a fair sacrifice to the democratic vote
to become staff, considering there's always the choice to take the test
and get back or keep the global mod label as well, if (s)he so chooses.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Simon Stelling]

Anders Hellgren wrote:
> BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
> phong: Don't know, inactive
> pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
[snip the ones who will take it or where it's not necessary]

We're talking about 3 people in the worst case. I don't know how long
they have been inactive, so I assume we have 3 people who don't want to
take the quiz. GLEP 38 says:

"As moderators are pretty much exposed to the public (forums users, but
also used as contact person for requests that should go to the PR
department or the trustees) they need to have some knowledge about
Gentoo's internal structure as well as contact to the other developers."

I absolutely agree with this, and that's exactly what the staff quiz is
for. The quiz has 8 questions, they're all quite easy. For those
moderators who have been moderating for years, it shouldn't take longer
than 15 minutes.

One argument I heard was, that it's not the quiz which is too hard, but
people think it's not okay to force moderators to take it to continue
their work. I partly agree with this too, I know, the quiz is also (but
still not only!) bureaucracy, but looking at this thread it seems to be
much less bureaucracy compared to this discussion. To solve this
problem, it will take 3 people to spend 15 minutes on a quiz they don't
like. Or it will take many more hours to discuss it over and over again.

Sorry, but this looks a bit ridiculous to me.

Regards,

-- 
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
blubb@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1540 bytes --]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:37:46 +0200 (MEST)
Anders Hellgren <andh@1-2-12-5a.gfa.gbg.bostream.se> wrote:

> > Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
> > global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status?
> 
> Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators
> group. To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.
> 
> Nitro: Not necessary, [1]
> amne: Will take
> BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
> curtis119: Has recently taken it 
> Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread,
> the main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo
> staff without taking the staff quiz.
> Earthwings: Will take
> ian!: Will take
> kallamej: Will take
> klieber: Not necessary, [1]
> Maedhros: Will take
> masseya: Don't know, but he thinks the glep is a really good idea.
> phong: Don't know, inactive
> pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
> pjp: Not necessary, [1] 
> plate: Not necessary, [1]
> puggy: Not necessary, [1]
> rac: Not necessary, [1]
> tomk: Not necessary, [1]

So that would be 6 "will take", 2 inactive (should be handled like
retired devs IMO), 8 "not necessary" and 2 more or less unknown. No
"definite against". So after all the whole discussion might be a non-
issue ;)

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ricardo Loureiro]

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Hi all,

All forum moderators and admins try to make the forum clean and after
that they try to help the best they can, as all other users. So the
moderators/admins do not need to know how Gentoo itself works
internally, they just need to be mature and responsible. 

Now I agree that regular users see moderators as higher members, and
that's why Gentoo Foundation should take care choosing
moderators/admins. That's what the quiz should be about. Gentoo
internal knowledge should be optional, although highly appreciated. If
Moderators/admins become staff, they may start to be seen as official
support, and I don't think that's something desirable right now, at
least not to increase the work of moderators/admins. 

As to local moderators (i'm one of them) I believe they should take
whatever global moderators take, they are moderators as well, although
they have a lot less work. Giving all moderators a developer or staff
status is not needed, although admins should be Gentoo developers or
staff because of their higher responsibility.

Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be considered
a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise why choose to
give their free time to the forums?

That's just my 2 cents as a local moderator.

Ricardo Loureiro


On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:09:41 +0200
Haas Wernfried <w.haas@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:

> Hi,
> With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
> we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
> on the latest changes:
> 1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
> 2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
> official GLEP.
> 3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
> the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]
> 
> Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> feedback. 
> 
> [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28985
> [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0038.html
> [3] http://curtis119.no-ip.org/forum-guide.xml
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fppmpppffpppmpfpffmffmppmpm Mfpmmmmmmfmm
> fpp.mfpmmmmmmfmm@fpfppffpmmpppff.mfpfmpfmf.fmpfmffppmffmppppp.mmmmm
> f.mmmfmp
> mfpfmpfmppfm://fpfppffpmmpppff.ppmfmfmpm.mmmfmp/~mmmppmpppmpppppmff
> ppfppp/ http://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny/
> -- 
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[twofourtysix]

On 28/06/05, Ricardo Loureiro <rjlouro@rjlouro.org> wrote:
> Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be considered
> a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise why choose to
> give their free time to the forums?

Would the likes of [1] be considered acceptable from a Gentoo staff member?

[1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1053530#1053530

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ricardo Loureiro]

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Hi again,

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:47:42 +0100
twofourtysix <twofourtysix@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28/06/05, Ricardo Loureiro <rjlouro@rjlouro.org> wrote:
> > Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be
> > considered a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise
> > why choose to give their free time to the forums?
> 
> Would the likes of [1] be considered acceptable from a Gentoo staff
> member?
> 
> [1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1053530#1053530

No, that's exactly why I said a quiz should be used for any moderator,
even if they are not to be considered staff or developers. And that
proves why I said moderators should need to be responsible and mature.
To have Gentoo internal knowledge is irrelevant for the forum
moderator work, but needed for official technical support.

BTW, let's make that an example and not discuss (again) that
particular episode.

Ricardo Loureiro

--

http://pgp.dei.uc.pt:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6B7C0EC0

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

First, that thread is old.
Second, the issue was addressed.
Third, personal opinions on anything do not have anything to do with
this. Freedom of speech has always been guaranteed on the forums as
far as there are no personal agressions. What brings me to the point
that your statement falls really apart in here...

On 6/28/05, twofourtysix <twofourtysix@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28/06/05, Ricardo Loureiro <rjlouro@rjlouro.org> wrote:
> > Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be considered
> > a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise why choose to
> > give their free time to the forums?
> 
> Would the likes of [1] be considered acceptable from a Gentoo staff member?
> 
> [1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1053530#1053530
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Michael Curtis Napier]

jkt@flaska.net said:

>I'll repeat myself, but I think that if you don't require current
>moderators to pass the staffing quiz, you're against the point of
>"Moderator as an authority".
>
>There are several possible solutions:
>a) Require all the existing moderators to do the quiz in some time
>(months?). Please don't say that it is hard, I've done it myself  ;-)
.
>b) Introduce another "moderator degree" called "Unofficial Moderator".
>
>I think that b) is stupid, so I vote for a). Having two degress would
>only cause confusion, IMHO. I beleive that moderators can find some
time
>for them to pass that quiz.
>
>-jkt
>
>
>-- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth 

There already are two levels of Moderator. Global Moderators that have
access to the entire forum and forum specific Moderators that only have
access to one forum ie. the language forums (the arch specific forum
Mods are all official Devs for that Arch anyway). The Global Moderators
and Administrators are the ones who would be covered by this GLEP and
be required to become Official Staff and take the quiz.

I have already taken the quiz in conjunction with another non-forum
project. You are correct, it was easy.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Sven Vermeulen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 375 bytes --]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:22:09PM -0700, Michael Curtis Napier wrote:
> I have already taken the quiz in conjunction with another non-forum
> project. You are correct, it was easy.

/me checks his archives

"... after a couple of tries."

=)

-- 
  Documentation project leader - Gentoo Foundation Trustee

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 14:22 -0700, Michael Curtis Napier wrote:
> There already are two levels of Moderator. Global Moderators that have
> access to the entire forum and forum specific Moderators that only have
> access to one forum ie. the language forums (the arch specific forum
> Mods are all official Devs for that Arch anyway). The Global Moderators
> and Administrators are the ones who would be covered by this GLEP and
> be required to become Official Staff and take the quiz.

OK... So the Global Moderators would be *required* to become Gentoo
staff and get all the good (and bad) that comes with it, correct?

This would still allow for forum-specific moderators to exist, that are
not members of the staff.  However, would forum-specific moderators be
allowed to become staff?  I would think not, to ease confusion.  If they
want to become staff, then they become a global moderator.

Make sense?

> I have already taken the quiz in conjunction with another non-forum
> project. You are correct, it was easy.
-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[christian.hartmann]

> You want to become official.

We are official. It's not just the way things should be.

> In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.

We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.

> If that was the case, there would be no control over the direction developers take [...]

At this point there is no direct control over the direction Gentoo goes. But thats something completly different.

> If we say half of the global moderators are staff, and the other half
> are not, how are users supposed to know the difference?

That would be problem. - That's why all global mods/admins should become staff members. (As described in the GLEP.)

> Once you become official, the statements made by the forum moderators/administrators are
> pretty much official statements of Gentoo (to the user anyway).

That's the way it is already.

> Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]

Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not need to take the quiz.

> [...] I fail to see what makes forum mods so special they deserve an exception;

We don't want to be treated special. Most of us (global mods/admins) are doing this job since years. Most of us joined before the quizes and the recruitment process were established.

> Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
> rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
> developer for Gentoo has to follow.

Well.. that's right. Rules should be followed.* If it would be up to me everybody of us would take that quiz and we could stop this discussion. But it's not up to me. - It's not that simple.
Long time contributers don't see why somebody wants them to take a quiz just to be allowed to continue the work they did for years. Nobody knows the forums and the community that well as these people do.
Of course we could make taking the quiz mandatory for all moderators. But this would probably mean to lose some great contributors.
Again: Old devs did not need to take the quiz. New ones (usually) need to take the quiz.
The same rules should be applied to the forums-staff. New members do need to take the quiz as described in the GLEP and recruitment process.

[*] BTW: Check some new devs and their devbugs (if any) and you'll see that these rules do not apply to everyone. I'm not saying that this behaviour is correct; just wanted to mention that.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:39:52AM +0200, christian.hartmann@email.de wrote:
> > You want to become official.
> 
> We are official. It's not just the way things should be.

Well... you want to become staff.

> > In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.
> 
> We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.

Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
are no exception to the rule.

> > Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]
> 
> Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not need to take the quiz.

Those people were already gentoo staff, you aren't right now, so it's
not the same situation.

> > Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
> > rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
> > developer for Gentoo has to follow.
> 
> Well.. that's right. Rules should be followed.* If it would be up to me everybody of us would take that quiz and we could stop this discussion. But it's not up to me. - It's not that simple.

People managing the forums should take the responsability to make them
take the quiz and become official. Nobody said that being 'the boss' was
going to be easy.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.
> >
> > We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.
> 
> Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> are no exception to the rule.

Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
be always the ones to do this.
 
> > > Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]
> >
> > Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not need to take the quiz.
> 
> Those people were already gentoo staff, you aren't right now, so it's
> not the same situation.

And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 334 bytes --]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jan Kundrát <jkt@flaska.net> wrote:
> > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> 
> Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?

I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
*do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 867 bytes --]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jan Kundrát <jkt@flaska.net> wrote:
> 
>>>And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
>>>quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
>>>mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
>>
>>Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?
> 
> 
> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

Nobody is forcing you, the Global Moderators themselves want to join
Gentoo staff and *they* submitted this GLEP. If you want to join some
group of people, you usually have to accept their rules (or try to
change them, of course :-) ).

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 03:34 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

You don't have an option if you want to become a Gentoo Staff/Developer
(how ever you want to see it). If someone wants to be a Global
Moderator, they do the quiz. If they don't do the quiz, they don't
become one/remain one. That's the way it should be. Simple.

- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:04 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?
> 
> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

Like we do for ALL developers, documentation writers and translators,
and all of our infrastructure staff *except* for the Global Moderators
and Forums Administrators?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:53:17AM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> > are no exception to the rule.
> 
> Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
> be always the ones to do this.

I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.

Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
they won't become gentoo staff.

> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:53:17AM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> > > are no exception to the rule.
> >
> > Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
> > be always the ones to do this.
> 
> I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.

One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

> Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> they won't become gentoo staff.

Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

> > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> 
> Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).

Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
stright away.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> 
> One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?

> > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > they won't become gentoo staff.
> 
> Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
see why you should deserve a different treatment.

If you want to join us, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow our rules. They are
there to be followed if you didn't notice.

> > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> 
> Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> stright away.

I hope you have stronger arguments...

Cheers,
Ferdy 

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> >
> > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> 
> Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?

Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
instead.

> 
> > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> >
> > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> 
> Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are
> the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel.

You are obviously free to state your opinion. But this *maybe* is not
to be discussed with us.

> I still don't
> see why you should deserve a different treatment.

I don't either: 

*> > > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
*> > > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).


> If you want to join us, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow our rules. They are
> there to be followed if you didn't notice.

If you didn't notice, as Christian already state before, we ARE
official, we are NOT joining you. We are simply getting our DESERVED
recognition.

> 
> > > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> >
> > Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> > is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> > stright away.
> 
> I hope you have stronger arguments...

IMHO that argument is more than enough.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

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Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:05 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
the big deal about it?

- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345
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=W8wH
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> the big deal about it?

Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:

Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:57, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
No, not for me.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

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Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:27 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

*I* don't have an issue with that. I care more about what I'm able to do
for the community rather than bother with what I'm going to be called.
Seriously.


- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Simon Stelling]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

No, why should anybody bother?

-- 
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
blubb@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> > not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> > dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> > the big deal about it?
> 
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> 

Yes. You don't develop anything

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Olivier Crete]

On Tue, 2005-28-06 at 07:20 -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> > > not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> > > dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> > > the big deal about it?
> > 
> > Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> > exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> > 
> > Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> > 
> 
> Yes. You don't develop anything

Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

-- 
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
x86 Security Liaison


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

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Olivier Crete wrote:
>>Yes. You don't develop anything
> 
> 
> Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

IMHO GDP members develop documentation :-). Just let's call them all
"developers"...

-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Christian Hartmann]

Jan Kundrát wrote:
> IMHO GDP members develop documentation :-). Just let's call them all
> "developers"...

and the forums monkeys develop solutions for the users.. develop faqs..
develop a community..

But I'm fine with the staff thingy. Please reread the GLEP and have a
look at the changes we made.

-- 
Kind regards,
Christian Hartmann

Broicher Str. 34
46049 Oberhausen
Germany

Mobile: +49 0173 20 71 871

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
Key fingerprint = 4544 EC0C BAE4 216F 5981  7F95 2154 E5EE 692A 4865
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[John Mylchreest]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:49 -0400, Olivier Crete wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-28-06 at 07:20 -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes. You don't develop anything
> 
> Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

I'd beg to differ there actually.
Infra developers are more often than not package maintainers etc as
well, and have cvs rights. if they don't have cvs rights, they look
after core infrastructure which is vital to Gentoo's survival.

Documentation devs, develop rather large and quite excellent online (and
offline) documentation.

Not to take away from the importance (or lack of depending on view) of
moderating the forums, but they are not as critical as official
literature and infrastructure, and also do not necessarily require in
depth knowledge of the technical aspects of any post.

Regardless, I would prefer the term "Staff."

Also, I don't really see the need in having shell access to the
developer boxes. what use would this be?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Christian Hartmann]

John Mylchreest wrote:
> Infra developers are more often than not package maintainers etc as
> well, and have cvs rights. if they don't have cvs rights, they look
> after core infrastructure which is vital to Gentoo's survival.

Forums built a community.
Quote: '"Best support" went to the Gentoo Forums'

http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20050314-newsletter.xml#doc_chap4

> Not to take away from the importance (or lack of depending on view) of
> moderating the forums, but they are not as critical as official
> literature and infrastructure, and also do not necessarily require in
> depth knowledge of the technical aspects of any post.

So I guess it doesn't matter to you if we would advise to use
-0mg-optimized flags rather then the ones that (core-)developers recommend?

> Regardless, I would prefer the term "Staff."

Sure. As I stated before I'd be fine with that.

> Also, I don't really see the need in having shell access to the
> developer boxes. what use would this be?

To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
of this fact.)

-- 
Kind regards,
Christian Hartmann

Broicher Str. 34
46049 Oberhausen
Germany

Mobile: +49 0173 20 71 871

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

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On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:

> To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
> of this fact.)

Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Cheers,

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:34 -0500, Lance Albertson wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> > atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
> > of this fact.)
> 
> Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
> moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
> the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
> have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
> simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
> see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
> more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
> that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Ok, after talking with a few folks I want to retract my comment about no
shell access. I didn't think about the other groups (docs) that already
have shell access and retain a simliar status as forum mods do in
Gentoo. I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
whether your work is more or less than a regular developer. I just
wanted to make that point before I had a flamewar directed at me :)

Cheers,

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lars Weiler]

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* Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org> [05/06/28 18:14 -0500]:
> I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing

"New people"?  You're joking, aren't you?  Some of them are
moderators for even a longer time than you are a Gentoo Dev.

The problem just is, that the Forums have been forgotten at
the time when our current (or even better now it's the old)
metastructure was built up.  The forum moderators now just
take Gentoo's official way to add the forums and the folks
behind it as a usual TLP or SLP (probably to PR).  And I'm
really ashamed that many Developers think they are just some
beggars for an @gentoo.org- and shell-account.

Did you really ever honoured their work?  Think about the
Forums will go down for a week.  I don't want to count the
questions a lot of developers will receive, which were
usually answered in the forums instead.  Or political
discussions about Gentoo, which are hold in the forums and
where the moderators slurp out the essence and hand it over
to the related devs.

Yes, we need the forums, we need the moderators, and we also
need that the moderators will be involved into Gentoo
completely, so that they know our rare internals and are
allowed to take part on elections about the future of the
project.

Please keep in mind what has been said before: This thread
ain't be a flamefest.  This is the official and transparent
way in how to integrate our forums as an official Gentoo
project.

Regards, Lars

-- 
Lars Weiler  <pylon@gentoo.org>  +49-171-1963258
Gentoo Linux PowerPC    : Developer and Release Engineer
Gentoo Infrastructure   : CVS Administrator
Gentoo Foundation       : Trustee

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

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On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 03:32 +0200, Lars Weiler wrote:
> * Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org> [05/06/28 18:14 -0500]:
> > I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> 
> "New people"?  You're joking, aren't you?  Some of them are
> moderators for even a longer time than you are a Gentoo Dev.

I wasn't directing that comment at the forum mods. I rarely use the
forums anymore because of how busy I am, but I know that all the mods
work hard (and probably harder than some of our 'official' devs). I was
mainly talking about the rate of new people we've been bringing on in
the past year. Most have been great, but I just get concerned when
numbers become more important than quality (Not saying thats the case
here, its just something to watch out for).

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:34:14 -0500
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> > atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're
> > aware of this fact.)
> 
> Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
> moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
> the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
> have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
> simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
> see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
> more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
> that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Well, as long as we use toucan for voting they need shell access (not
now, but when they become foundation members in a year).

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:57 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

Honestly, we call everyone with an @gentoo.org address a developer,
whether they are a "developer" (CVS access) or not.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:34:35AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Honestly, we call everyone with an @gentoo.org address a developer,
> whether they are a "developer" (CVS access) or not.

There have been heavy objections against that when we presented the
first draft of the glep using the term developer, even though we
stated not needing CVS access - so we chose the term staff.
Tbh, i don't care at all if it's called staff or developer, just make
it an official member.

About the status of the forums and being official or not:
Remember the mess with stats.gentoo.org? The people working on it
wanted to use this domain and therefor it was suggested that they
needed to be developers. Please don't get me wrong and this is
definitely no attemt to revive that discussion, but if
stats.gentoo.org is official and needs official members, the forums
should be considered and have official members, too (called staff
or developers or forums-monkeys).

Anyway, the intention of the GLEP is to solve this problem and not to
turn gentoo-dev into a flamefest. ;-)

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Fppmpppffpppmpfpffmffmppmpm Mfpmmmmmmfmm
fpp.mfpmmmmmmfmm@fpfppffpmmpppff.mfpfmpfmf.fmpfmffppmffmppppp.mmmmmf.mmmfmp
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http://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:35:11PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > >
> > > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> > 
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer, 
take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't 
like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff

Overall I'd say I think the best course of action is for the forum 
admins & whatever high-level executive decision making moderators to 
become staff and for the forums to become a valid (sub)project, then 
they can add their other folks as needed. I don't see any need for the 
'all or nothing' approach. Frankly I don't see any harm in people not 
being totally clear on which mods are "staff" and which aren't (what 
practical difference does it make?)

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff

Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

> Overall I'd say I think the best course of action is for the forum
> admins & whatever high-level executive decision making moderators to
> become staff and for the forums to become a valid (sub)project, then
> they can add their other folks as needed. I don't see any need for the
> 'all or nothing' approach. Frankly I don't see any harm in people not
> being totally clear on which mods are "staff" and which aren't (what
> practical difference does it make?)

Agreed.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:01:57PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> > take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> > like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

Why would you want to ? Everybody can take the ebuild quiz, if they have
something to do in the tree of course.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:31 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>>Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
>>take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
>>like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

What's stopping you from doing so? If you've done enough work with
ebuilds and want to help out, surely you'll be able to take the quiz and
work with ebuilds.

- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:01:57PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> > take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> > like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

Find a mentor to sponsor you for the process and sure

-- 
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avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:35 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

You really don't give up on these semantics, do you?

All of our infrastructure "developers" whom have not taken the ebuild
quiz are actually "staff".  The *only* distinction between the two is
CVS access.  Please quit trying to make this out to be some form of "us
versus them" argument when there is none.  If *any* of the moderators,
or even forums members, were to take the ebuild quiz and follow the
recruitment process, then they would become "developers" for Gentoo.  It
is as simple as that.

> > > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> > 
> > Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are
> > the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel.
> 
> You are obviously free to state your opinion. But this *maybe* is not
> to be discussed with us.

Discussed with you that you need to follow the same rules as all of the
other Gentoo members?

> If you didn't notice, as Christian already state before, we ARE
> official, we are NOT joining you. We are simply getting our DESERVED
> recognition.

Really?  Where is your account on toucan?  How about your name on the
roll call?

I don't mean to sound rude, but while you have always been a part of
Gentoo, youw ere not official, otherwise we would not be having this
conversation, at all.

> IMHO that argument is more than enough.

However, it is not to some of us.  Perhaps rather than taking such a
stubborn, argumentative stance, you would give positive examples or
arguments with some merit?

At this point, you wouldn't have my vote.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
...

Erm... either your emails came late or you didn't read my last email.
The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Ioannis wrote:

>*****
>My most sincere excuses if I trolled or annoyed anyone. It was not
>intentional.
>*****


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:28:20PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > 
> > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> 
> Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> > 
> > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> 
> Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
> the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
> see why you should deserve a different treatment.
> 


AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to 
the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff 
all of a sudden


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> all of a sudden

And we already have a candidate I presume :)

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:48, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> all of a sudden
This is fair and right enough. But to do that, I'm still thinking (like 
others) that it's an all-or-nothing: or they take the quiz or they don't be 
official; no official, no global moderation (if the most of the global 
moderators want to be official staff and the project to be an official 
recognized one).

For local mods, like for AT, they can do it on their own, imho.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:00:21PM +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:48, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> > the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> > all of a sudden
> This is fair and right enough. But to do that, I'm still thinking (like 
> others) that it's an all-or-nothing: or they take the quiz or they don't be 
> official; no official, no global moderation (if the most of the global 
> moderators want to be official staff and the project to be an official 
> recognized one).
> 

Why does it matter? Should this policy also apply to 'unofficial' bug 
wranglers who did not take the staff quiz, or is Bugzilla not an 
official part of Gentoo?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:19, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> Why does it matter? Should this policy also apply to 'unofficial' bug
> wranglers who did not take the staff quiz, or is Bugzilla not an
> official part of Gentoo?
They have limited privileges, they shouldn't touch out of their competence, so 
they are like ATs and local moderators.
But to have the competence to change all the bugs, you need to be official, 
don't you?

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:48:51AM -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:28:20PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > > 
> > > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> > 
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> > 
> > > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> > > 
> > > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> > 
> > Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
> > the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
> > see why you should deserve a different treatment.
> > 
> 
> 
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to 
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff 
> all of a sudden

OK, I take that back, plans were dropped for a forums-specific recruiter 
and instead it'd all go through the existing recruiters

Either way, my point stands 8)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:19 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> 
> One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

Like our infrastructure staff?

Hey, didn't you just read that lcars, who has been around *forever* just
took the developer quiz so he could get access to the portage tree to
maintain sendmail.  Well, I mean, he's been around for so long,
shouldn't he have just been allowed to completely side-step the
recruitment process that is in place?

> > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > they won't become gentoo staff.
> 
> Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

I don't think anyone has disagreed that you should be in complete
control over whom you recruit as forum-specific moderators.  It is only
when they wish to "move up" to a global moderator or administrator
position that they should be required to complete the official
recruitment process.

> > > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> > 
> > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> 
> Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> stright away.

Again I have to ask.  Are you even reading what people are commenting or
are you just spouting this same thing over and over.

You never were staff.  You never asked to be.  The developers that were
here before the quiz was established were already developers.  You had
no "official" status.  You cannot make a comparison without completely
throwing logic out the window.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:53 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

You were never staff before.

I contributed ebuilds to Gentoo before I became a developer.  That
doesn't mean I was automatically a developer before taking the quiz.

It doesn't matter if you contributed directly to Daniel the day he
started the stinking distribution.  If you were never a "memeber", then
how can you possibly ask to be grandfathered in as one?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[christian.hartmann]

> If this is a development list, why exactly are we having discussion
> about the forums in the first place?

"The author of the GLEP is then responsible for posting the GLEP to the gentoo-dev mailing list and to the Gentoo Linux forums [7], and marshaling community support for it."

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0001.html#glep-work-flow

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