[gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Jim Northrup]

to address Luca, Erin, and Patrick as well, and cease the thread hijack
implications

Rob Holland wrote:

>On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 08:59:34AM -0700, Jim Northrup wrote:
>  
>
>>might I suggest not kicking #gentoo-dev visitors who ask for voice to
>>speak to the devs without a 'rtfm & go get a gentoo job' smokescreen ?
>>    
>>
>Sorry, I've missed how that's relevant to Gentoo metastructure..?
>  
>
I could go into specifics, but I'd just like to say that regardless of
how busy (and spending time on irc condescending non-devs?), you will
occasionally find folks like me ignorant of process, but willing to
contribute a fix here and there. 

My history with gentoo is one of putting it into production, and working
with gentoo for more years than many developers both for enjoyment and
livelyhood.

so if it makes a difference, I approached a dev on #gentoo-dev, and met
with condescending and belittling treatment when i asked for voice.  I
will not be going into names or specifics. 

undeterred, I have taken the reccomendations, and rtfm'd and established
relations with developers nearly filing a bugzilla entry in the process
to highlight the ridiculous level of bother my role as outsider seemed
to present.

the gentoo [meta]process deficiencies I can present for consideration are:

1)  There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites
I've rtfm'd specifying any hint of conduct guidelines for being a
developer interfacing with the outside world, representing the
organization.  Common social ettiquette does not always reside with
skilled techies...

2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
bug, the door starts out closed.


Jim
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Corey Shields]

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Sorry you had a bad experience.  Please do not let the words and actions of 
one developer reflect on the hundreds of others.

On Wednesday 08 June 2005 04:23 pm, Jim Northrup wrote:
<snip>
> 1)  There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites
> I've rtfm'd specifying any hint of conduct guidelines for being a
> developer interfacing with the outside world, representing the
> organization.  Common social ettiquette does not always reside with
> skilled techies...

We specifically talk about irc in the etiquette policy:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=2

> 2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
> interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
> with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
> for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
> bug, the door starts out closed.

It's a good idea to have everything bugged just for the sake of getting things 
accomplished.  IRC is nice, and a lot of collaboration goes on there, but a 
lot of things fall through the cracks.  If there seems to be a lot of push to 
interface through bugzilla, the reasons are to be able to track stuff and get 
it done.  I hate bugzilla as much as the next guy, but I think it helps to 
prevent a lot of frustration from requests getting lost.

Cheers,

-Corey

-- 
Corey Shields
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Team and Devrel Team
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
http://www.gentoo.org/~cshields

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Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Daniel Drake]

Jim Northrup wrote:
> 1)  There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites
> I've rtfm'd specifying any hint of conduct guidelines for being a
> developer interfacing with the outside world, representing the
> organization.  Common social ettiquette does not always reside with
> skilled techies...

Since you have given zero context, I'm really not sure what you are writing
about. Are you saying that you are interested in becoming a developer with the
task of interfacing between the development community and the user base..?

> 2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
> interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
> with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
> for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
> bug, the door starts out closed.

Thats pretty much correct - the entire development community revolves heavily
around bugzilla. We use it for much more than bugs - we use it for requests,
suggestions, things that just aren't quite right, improvements, software
submissions, documentation submissions, and many other things that aren't
actually "bugs". So pretty much any contribution anyone can make can or will
go through bugzilla. Yes, we really really need bugzilla documentation.

Secondary to bugzilla there is IRC and mailing lists. It's a lot harder to get
recognised here though. According to my mail client, I've read some of your
previous posts, but your name doesn't sound familiar at all. Names are much
more memorable when you take a patch from bugzilla and have to physically
write the contributors name into the package ChangeLog in return for their effort.

But sometimes getting a wake-up call can be very useful. User feedback distant
from the development community can be very useful. I tend to file bugs based
on this kind of feedback. Take one I handled today, which I've seen a few
times. The installation handbook contained this sentence for 5 months:

"As shown in the above listing, the current profile contains a 2.4
subdirectory.  This means that the current profile uses the 2.6 kernel."

Some users find it hard to convince themselves that this might possibly *not*
be a typo. And you can't blame them, once you take a step back from the
understanding that Gentoo profiles are cascaded.

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you could write to Gentoo user relations with
your experiences, what information you are lacking, and where you would expect
to find it.

Daniel
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Joshua Baergen]

> 2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
> interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
> with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
> for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
> bug, the door starts out closed.

In reference to the difficulties outlined regarding becoming a
developer above, I am in the process of becoming a dev without any
contact with developers beforehand except for filing a bug that
probably annoyed devs more than helped :P  I contacted the recruiting
group in response to a requirement for developers and they were glad
to get the process started provided that I showed evidence that I
would be an asset, mainly through input on bugs currently open.

I doubt that I am the only one who has this story, but that doesn't
mean your claim in #2 could not have happened to other people.  Did
you have any specific situations you were referring to when you wrote
that?

-- 
Joshua Baergen

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wednesday 08 June 2005 07:23 pm, Jim Northrup wrote:
> so if it makes a difference, I approached a dev on #gentoo-dev, and met
> with condescending and belittling treatment when i asked for voice.

generally when someone asks for voice and i dont recognize them i ask why they 
want it voice ... ive had people ask for voice before and have it turn out 
that they just wanted help with a bug when #gentoo was where they were 
supposed to be inquiring

> 1)  There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites
> <snip>

we maintain a specific 'needs' page that is linked off of the main page 
(Staffing Needs):
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/
-mike
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Jim Northrup]

Joshua Baergen wrote:

>>2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
>>interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
>>with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
>>for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
>>bug, the door starts out closed.
>>    
>>
>
>In reference to the difficulties outlined regarding becoming a
>developer above, I am in the process of becoming a dev without any
>contact with developers beforehand except for filing a bug that
>probably annoyed devs more than helped :P  I contacted the recruiting
>group in response to a requirement for developers and they were glad
>to get the process started provided that I showed evidence that I
>would be an asset, mainly through input on bugs currently open.
>
>I doubt that I am the only one who has this story, but that doesn't
>mean your claim in #2 could not have happened to other people.  Did
>you have any specific situations you were referring to when you wrote
>that?
>  
>
I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my
system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev
channel to get pointers to the best "official" references to ebuild
crafting and submission.

As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice
from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. "re", or some
similar indication of important offical business commencing.  I was
informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers,
period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and
should be elsewhere.  Instead of anything like assistance I wound up
being told
1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo
process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing,
2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can
occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted.
3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in
#gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers,
and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since
0.99, I was not a developer
4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or
talk to a recruiter about something to help out with.

my reply was that I enter #gentoo-dev, and request voice when it seems
helpful and important, without incident in all previous occasions
the response was that these developers were obviously in error and it
was irrelevant to the discussion.

I said I'm willing to take my chances as being perceived as noise.
the response was an unceremonious kick.

This developer was possessed with zeal and determination. to be sure.

Anyways, it happened, it's over.  the order and exact words may have
been different but the tone and the impression stuck.   I spent the due
dillegence perfecting my system hack, but I did not succeed in making it
available, or finding a likely benefactor project for voip qos
settings.  This was beneath the involvment of #gentoo-dev at the time i
made the approach.  I spent several hours researching volumes of gentoo
info alternating between the recruitment process and the ebuild process,
on a busy weekend i had planned to spend apart from a console.

so.. as an aside, is there a package with an interest in iptable
configuration for broadband voip qos configs?

Jim
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Stephen P. Becker]

> I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my
> system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev
> channel to get pointers to the best "official" references to ebuild
> crafting and submission.
> 
> As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice
> from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. "re", or some
> similar indication of important offical business commencing.  I was
> informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers,
> period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and
> should be elsewhere.  Instead of anything like assistance I wound up
> being told
> 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo
> process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing,
> 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can
> occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted.
> 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in
> #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers,
> and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since
> 0.99, I was not a developer
> 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or
> talk to a recruiter about something to help out with.
> 

Without hearing the other side of the story or seeing a transcript of
the conversation, it is hard to say whether whoever this was reacted
properly or not, however I would say they have a major stick up their
ass.  Don't assume everybody in #gentoo-dev would have reacted to your
query the same way.  For example, people have asked me for voice a few
times, and I grant it to them if their question or concern actually has
to do with development of gentoo.  If the request amounts to user
support, I tell them to try #gentoo or bugzilla.

In any case, if they said voice was only granted to developers, they are
dead wrong.  Developers have ops, while developers in training or
wannabe developers are typically granted voice.

-Steve
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Lance Albertson]

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On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 21:45 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> > I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my
> > system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev
> > channel to get pointers to the best "official" references to ebuild
> > crafting and submission.
> > 
> > As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice
> > from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. "re", or some
> > similar indication of important offical business commencing.  I was
> > informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers,
> > period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and
> > should be elsewhere.  Instead of anything like assistance I wound up
> > being told
> > 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo
> > process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing,
> > 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can
> > occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted.
> > 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in
> > #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers,
> > and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since
> > 0.99, I was not a developer
> > 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or
> > talk to a recruiter about something to help out with.
> > 
> 
> Without hearing the other side of the story or seeing a transcript of
> the conversation, it is hard to say whether whoever this was reacted
> properly or not, however I would say they have a major stick up their
> ass.  Don't assume everybody in #gentoo-dev would have reacted to your
> query the same way.  For example, people have asked me for voice a few
> times, and I grant it to them if their question or concern actually has
> to do with development of gentoo.  If the request amounts to user
> support, I tell them to try #gentoo or bugzilla.
> 
> In any case, if they said voice was only granted to developers, they are
> dead wrong.  Developers have ops, while developers in training or
> wannabe developers are typically granted voice.

I would have to agree with Stephen on this. There are a few developers
that would snap like that, but don't assume we're all like that. I'm not
sure if IRC would have been the best place to present you 'awesome' new
thing. A better idea would probably be to post a thread on this mailing
list to get more exposure. Of course, you could include your nickname
for IRC, but this or the forums would be a great place to get 'noticed'
per say if it really would be something to add to Gentoo.

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
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ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Paul Waring]

On 6/9/05, Stephen P. Becker <geoman@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Without hearing the other side of the story or seeing a transcript of
> the conversation, it is hard to say whether whoever this was reacted
> properly or not, however I would say they have a major stick up their
> ass.  Don't assume everybody in #gentoo-dev would have reacted to your
> query the same way.  For example, people have asked me for voice a few
> times, and I grant it to them if their question or concern actually has
> to do with development of gentoo.  If the request amounts to user
> support, I tell them to try #gentoo or bugzilla.

Having spent quite a long time on IRC/Bugzilla/-dev I can say that
Stephen is right here - there are some devs who, for whatever reason,
not particularly welcoming to newcomers. I've been on the receiving
end of some of their comments and it's not very nice, and caused me to
step back from getting involved any further for quite some time.
However, having said that there are also some decent devs who are more
than willing to help (even on simple ebuild queries when perhaps I
should have read the docs a bit further before asking) and get new
people on board. You just have to know who to approach and the best
way to do so.

Finally, having met a lot of the UK developers I can tell you that
none of them (even Ciaran ;) are as bad as you might think based on
their attitude on IRC.

Paul

-- 
Rogue Tory
http://www.roguetory.org.uk

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Luca Barbato]

Jim Northrup wrote:

> so if it makes a difference, I approached a dev on #gentoo-dev, and met
> with condescending and belittling treatment when i asked for voice.  I
> will not be going into names or specifics. 

Please specify it.

> 
> undeterred, I have taken the reccomendations, and rtfm'd and established
> relations with developers nearly filing a bugzilla entry in the process
> to highlight the ridiculous level of bother my role as outsider seemed
> to present.
> 
The best way to send us improvements and information is though
 bugzilla. That way it won't get lost because of other issues.

> the gentoo [meta]process deficiencies I can present for consideration are:
> 
> 1)  There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites
> I've rtfm'd specifying any hint of conduct guidelines for being a
> developer interfacing with the outside world, representing the
> organization.  Common social ettiquette does not always reside with
> skilled techies...

Sorry, we are human and sometimes we just express our feelings. If on
irc your way to address people is the same you use on email, I guess
somebody could be less patient.

> 
> 2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
> interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
> with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
> for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
> bug, the door starts out closed.

One of the common way to became developer is receive an offer and being
sponsored and mentored by someone that already knows you. If you are
supposed to work with other people you should like them, isn't it?

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Developer		Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure

[Daniel Goller]

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Jim Northrup wrote:
| Joshua Baergen wrote:
|
|
|>>2)  There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of
|>>interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning
|>>with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer.  So
|>>for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a
|>>bug, the door starts out closed.
|>>
|>>
|>
|>In reference to the difficulties outlined regarding becoming a
|>developer above, I am in the process of becoming a dev without any
|>contact with developers beforehand except for filing a bug that
|>probably annoyed devs more than helped :P  I contacted the recruiting
|>group in response to a requirement for developers and they were glad
|>to get the process started provided that I showed evidence that I
|>would be an asset, mainly through input on bugs currently open.
|>
|>I doubt that I am the only one who has this story, but that doesn't
|>mean your claim in #2 could not have happened to other people.  Did
|>you have any specific situations you were referring to when you wrote
|>that?
|>
|>
|
| I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my
| system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev
| channel to get pointers to the best "official" references to ebuild
| crafting and submission.
|
| As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice
| from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. "re", or some
| similar indication of important offical business commencing.  I was
| informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers,
| period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and
| should be elsewhere.  Instead of anything like assistance I wound up
| being told
| 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo
| process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing,
| 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can
| occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted.
| 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in
| #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers,
| and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since
| 0.99, I was not a developer
| 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or
| talk to a recruiter about something to help out with.
|

First, let me say i am sorry you had this experience, i freuqntly voice
people in #gentoo-dev if they seem to have the need to speak there, the
reasons could be many, maybe someone uses icewm and finds it way
outdated, and helps the maintainer by testing for him, being a quasi
maintainer a while dow the road and eventually becoming a gentoo dev
(might i add <imho>i would say we have more maintainers than
developers</imho>?) and taking care of icewm completely then and making
it a habit to apply the many gcc 3.4 patches who have been submitted to
bugzilla, and lay dead and dusty there for no dev to be touched (ok so
now it would be gcc4.0 but that dev might have brought on a guy who
takes care of those by now

ok enough stories about how use having +v in #gentoo-dev is possible, is
normal, and can lead to things


| my reply was that I enter #gentoo-dev, and request voice when it seems
| helpful and important, without incident in all previous occasions
| the response was that these developers were obviously in error and it
| was irrelevant to the discussion.
|
| I said I'm willing to take my chances as being perceived as noise.
| the response was an unceremonious kick.
|
| This developer was possessed with zeal and determination. to be sure.
|
| Anyways, it happened, it's over.  the order and exact words may have
| been different but the tone and the impression stuck.   I spent the due
| dillegence perfecting my system hack, but I did not succeed in making it
| available, or finding a likely benefactor project for voip qos
| settings.  This was beneath the involvment of #gentoo-dev at the time i
| made the approach.  I spent several hours researching volumes of gentoo
| info alternating between the recruitment process and the ebuild process,
| on a busy weekend i had planned to spend apart from a console.
|
| so.. as an aside, is there a package with an interest in iptable
| configuration for broadband voip qos configs?
what i really replied for is to ask, if i can forward your email to a
friend of mine who happens to be involved with telephony with his
company, i know zero about that, i do know he does use VoIP, so maybe he
finds your hack nifty

|
| Jim

hope you better luck next time in #gentoo-dev

Daniel
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Jan Kundrát]

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Chris White wrote:
> I plan to create somewhat of a consistant contact point between irc users that want a voice in dev.

Are you awake 24/7/365? If not, I probably misunderstood your message.
If someone goes to IRC, he (IMHO) wants to discuss stuff *right now* and
don't want to wait for you to return from job/shopping/vacation/whatever.

-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Jonathan Smith]

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Chris White wrote:
> [snip]
> if you feel that I have handled the situation properly regarding your voicing, please send an email to dev-relations and I'll be happy to work things out.
> [snip]

just to clarify: you mean improperly, right? why would a user send an
email to devrel if you did a good job?

- -smithj
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Joshua Baergen]

On 6/14/05, Jonathan Smith <smithj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Chris White wrote:
> > [snip]
> > if you feel that I have handled the situation properly regarding your voicing, please send an email to dev-relations and I'll be happy to work things out.
> > [snip]
> 
> just to clarify: you mean improperly, right? why would a user send an
> email to devrel if you did a good job?
> 
> - -smithj
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> =wJYK
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> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 
Because devrel gets grumpy if they only hear about bad things! :P

-- 
Joshua Baergen

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Marius Mauch]

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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:05:21 +0900
Chris White <chriswhite@gentoo.org> wrote:

> > >>might I suggest not kicking #gentoo-dev visitors who ask for
> > >>voice to speak to the devs without a 'rtfm & go get a gentoo job'
> > >>smokescreen ?
> 
> My intentions in this email were regarding the above worries about
> things.  I plan to create somewhat of a consistant contact point
> between irc users that want a voice in dev.  If anyone has
> disagreements, I'll be happy to hear them out and hopefully address
> them.  My plan of interaction is as follows:

[snip]

Won't work. First it would introduce a single point of failure. If we'd
really follow this route there has to be a role for this, not a user.
Then how are people supposed to know about this in teh first place? I
wouldn't expect that users with a question/topic for -dev have read the
dev handbook. Often that is spontaneous, which brings me to my next
point: email definitely won't work for this, I mean if someone writes
an email they can just as well ask their question on the gentoo-dev
list directly.
And finally: I really don't like the idea of telling people "ask Chris
for voice, other devs might not behave nice", if there really is a
problem this will just sidestep it, not solve it.

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Marius Mauch wrote:
> Won't work. First it would introduce a single point of failure. If we'd
> really follow this route there has to be a role for this, not a user.
> Then how are people supposed to know about this in teh first place? I
> wouldn't expect that users with a question/topic for -dev have read the
> dev handbook. Often that is spontaneous, which brings me to my next
> point: email definitely won't work for this, I mean if someone writes
> an email they can just as well ask their question on the gentoo-dev
> list directly.

Yeah maybe we should make a #-dev FAQ and stick it in the topic.
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[gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Chris White]

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> >>might I suggest not kicking #gentoo-dev visitors who ask for voice to
> >>speak to the devs without a 'rtfm & go get a gentoo job' smokescreen ?

My intentions in this email were regarding the above worries about things.  I plan to create somewhat of a consistant contact point between irc users that want a voice in dev.  If anyone has disagreements, I'll be happy to hear them out and hopefully address them.  My plan of interaction is as follows:

====
Plan
====

if you want a voice in #gentoo-dev, please ask me
if I'm not active, send me an email to this address letting me know what it is you'd like to discuss in dev

if you feel that I have handled the situation properly regarding your voicing, please send an email to dev-relations and I'll be happy to work things out.

Also if you send me an email, please put [gentoo-dev voicing request] in the topic, as well as your irc name and timezone for contact purposes.

I'll be leaving for work for about 8 hours from the time of this email, so don't expect too much of an immediate response.

Chris White

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Thierry Carrez]

Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Chris White wrote:
> 
>>I plan to create somewhat of a consistant contact point between irc users that want a voice in dev.
> 
> Are you awake 24/7/365?

Yes, ChrisWhite in a protocol IRC bot. Also speaks a few million
languages, including Japanese.

-- 
Koon
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[OT] Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Andrej Kacian]

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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:56:20 +0200
Thierry Carrez <koon@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Yes, ChrisWhite in a protocol IRC bot. Also speaks a few million
> languages, including Japanese.

Who's R2D2 then?

-- 
Andrej "Ticho" Kacian <ticho at gentoo dot org>
Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, amd64

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Luca Barbato]

Jan Kundrát wrote:

> 
> Are you awake 24/7/365? If not, I probably misunderstood your message.
> If someone goes to IRC, he (IMHO) wants to discuss stuff *right now* and

right now is when you listener is pleased to listen, ALWAYS.

> don't want to wait for you to return from job/shopping/vacation/whatever.

If is so important the best way to address the problem is send a bug
using bugzilla. Then there is the email, then there is a polite request
on irc, then there is a snail mail, with the request printed on the dev
fav currency.

Beside jokes, your attitude is pretty rude, we are all volunteers and we
are people with a life (hopefully), we like to help and improve, but not
push us.

lu


-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Developer		Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Tuesday 14 June 2005 23:02, Marius Mauch wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:05:21 +0900
>
> Chris White <chriswhite@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > >>might I suggest not kicking #gentoo-dev visitors who ask for
> > > >>voice to speak to the devs without a 'rtfm & go get a gentoo job'
> > > >>smokescreen ?
> >
> > My intentions in this email were regarding the above worries about
> > things.  I plan to create somewhat of a consistant contact point
> > between irc users that want a voice in dev.  If anyone has
> > disagreements, I'll be happy to hear them out and hopefully address
> > them.  My plan of interaction is as follows:
>
> [snip]
>
> Won't work. First it would introduce a single point of failure. If we'd
> really follow this route there has to be a role for this, not a user.
> Then how are people supposed to know about this in teh first place? I
> wouldn't expect that users with a question/topic for -dev have read the
> dev handbook. Often that is spontaneous, which brings me to my next
> point: email definitely won't work for this, I mean if someone writes
> an email they can just as well ask their question on the gentoo-dev
> list directly.
> And finally: I really don't like the idea of telling people "ask Chris
> for voice, other devs might not behave nice", if there really is a
> problem this will just sidestep it, not solve it.

Why not create a "voicebot" that would sit in the irc channel (the subject 
would refer to it), that developers could send a message to, and that 
would automatically be forwarded to a team of developers. If the bot 
would forward the communication to all members and the requestor double 
action is avoided, and users know where to go to get voice. The voicebot 
automatically maintains the list of active voice team members. It could 
even be made to block users that should not be allowed to bother the team 
(for example because they seriously misbehave themselves).

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Andrej Kacian]

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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:21:20 +0200
Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Why not create a "voicebot" that would sit in the irc channel (the subject 
> would refer to it), that developers could send a message to, and that 
> would automatically be forwarded to a team of developers. If the bot 
> would forward the communication to all members and the requestor double 
> action is avoided, and users know where to go to get voice. The voicebot 
> automatically maintains the list of active voice team members. It could 
> even be made to block users that should not be allowed to bother the team 
> (for example because they seriously misbehave themselves).

Why needlessly create more artificial "bureaucracy" than is necessary? There's
nothing wrong with current system, except for one dev (one so far, that is)
who seems to be allergic to non-devs, and should take a vacation or something.

I too have in past voiced users who politely asked to be voiced, and stated
their reasons.

-- 
Andrej "Ticho" Kacian <ticho at gentoo dot org>
Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, amd64

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 15 June 2005 11:29, Andrej Kacian wrote:
> Why needlessly create more artificial "bureaucracy" than is necessary?
> There's nothing wrong with current system, except for one dev (one so
> far, that is) who seems to be allergic to non-devs, and should take a
> vacation or something.
>
> I too have in past voiced users who politely asked to be voiced, and
> stated their reasons.

It would be an easy contact point for users. The other way would certainly 
be still allowed, but it might be easier if there was a fixed "contact" 
even if that is actually multiple people.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Andrej Kacian]

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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:20 +0200
Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:

> It would be an easy contact point for users. The other way would certainly 
> be still allowed, but it might be easier if there was a fixed "contact" 
> even if that is actually multiple people.

Just out of curiosity - what's wrong with "any active (as in irc activity)
dev" as a "contact"? Why limit this feature to selected few?

-- 
Andrej "Ticho" Kacian <ticho at gentoo dot org>
Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, amd64

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Jason Stubbs]

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On Wednesday 15 June 2005 18:29, Andrej Kacian wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:21:20 +0200
>
> Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Why not create a "voicebot" that would sit in the irc channel (the
> > subject would refer to it), that developers could send a message to, and
> > that would automatically be forwarded to a team of developers. If the bot
> > would forward the communication to all members and the requestor double
> > action is avoided, and users know where to go to get voice. The voicebot
> > automatically maintains the list of active voice team members. It could
> > even be made to block users that should not be allowed to bother the team
> > (for example because they seriously misbehave themselves).

+1

> Why needlessly create more artificial "bureaucracy" than is necessary?

1. Users have confidence that the request is going to the right people.
2. Developers who don't want the requests won't get them.

Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?

Regards,
Jason Stubbs

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Andrej Kacian]

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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:03:44 +0900
Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?

Maybe I used wrong term - I was thinking about time and effort spent on
setting up and maintaining the ircbot. I've been in charge of a large botnet
in the past (along with quite a lot of tcl scripting), so I know it's not
hard, but still...

-- 
Andrej "Ticho" Kacian <ticho at gentoo dot org>
Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, amd64

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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Thierry Carrez]

Andrej Kacian wrote:

>>Yes, ChrisWhite in a protocol IRC bot. Also speaks a few million
>>languages, including Japanese.
> 
> Who's R2D2 then?

Also a Gentoo developer, living in Toronto, Canada. See the rollcall list...

-- 
Koon
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 15 June 2005 12:03, Andrej Kacian wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:20 +0200
>
> Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > It would be an easy contact point for users. The other way would
> > certainly be still allowed, but it might be easier if there was a
> > fixed "contact" even if that is actually multiple people.
>
> Just out of curiosity - what's wrong with "any active (as in irc
> activity) dev" as a "contact"? Why limit this feature to selected few?

Nothing, is wrong with it. It would just be able for devs to say they 
don't want to be bothered.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Jan Kundrát]

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Luca Barbato wrote:
> Jan Kundrát wrote:
> 
> 
>>Are you awake 24/7/365? If not, I probably misunderstood your message.
>>If someone goes to IRC, he (IMHO) wants to discuss stuff *right now* and
> 
> 
> right now is when you listener is pleased to listen, ALWAYS.

Sorry, I can't parse this.

>>don't want to wait for you to return from job/shopping/vacation/whatever.
> 
> 
> If is so important the best way to address the problem is send a bug
> using bugzilla. Then there is the email, then there is a polite request
> on irc, then there is a snail mail, with the request printed on the dev
> fav currency.

Some problems are better discussed in a real-time fashion, and you (the
Gentoo developers) have already said that you are open to voicing people
who can make a request politely.

> Beside jokes, your attitude is pretty rude, we are all volunteers and we
> are people with a life (hopefully), we like to help and improve, but not
> push us.

I know that we all are volunteers and I really appreciate your work. It
wasn't my intention to be rude at all, I just wanted to point out that
if a *single* person states that he would be an official
point-of-contact, it won't be very usefull as I can't imagine anyone
being on IRC all the time. And if the person who wishes to ask isn't
voiced in, let's say, less than hour, he can send a mail to -dev ML as well.

I'm sorry if you considered my previous reply impolite, I'm not a native
English speaker :-).

WKR,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Marius Mauch]

Andrej Kacian wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:03:44 +0900
> Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?
> 
> 
> Maybe I used wrong term - I was thinking about time and effort spent on
> setting up and maintaining the ircbot. I've been in charge of a large botnet
> in the past (along with quite a lot of tcl scripting), so I know it's not
> hard, but still...
> 

I'm pretty sure that could be added to GenBot or jeeves, wouldn't need 
yet another bot.

Marius
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Intent to help with #gentoo-dev voicing issues

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Wednesday 15 June 2005 17:08, Marius Mauch wrote:
> Andrej Kacian wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:03:44 +0900
> >
> > Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >>Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?
> >
> > Maybe I used wrong term - I was thinking about time and effort spent on
> > setting up and maintaining the ircbot. I've been in charge of a large
> > botnet in the past (along with quite a lot of tcl scripting), so I know
> > it's not hard, but still...
>
> I'm pretty sure that could be added to GenBot or jeeves, wouldn't need
> yet another bot.

I don't care (allthough a special nick might just be easy in that no-one would 
need to know special commands except the admins of the bot). In any case that 
is an implementation issue.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression about voip (semi-technical)

[Jim Northrup]

> what i really replied for is to ask, if i can forward your email to a
> friend of mine who happens to be involved with telephony with his
> company, i know zero about that, i do know he does use VoIP, so maybe he
> finds your hack nifty
>
> |
> | Jim
>
> hope you better luck next time in #gentoo-dev
>
> Daniel


Yes, please.
 
roughly what I can spell out with patience is:

I have borrowed some qos configs elsehwere, applied occam's razor, and
been satisfied with controlling outbound traffic [using only vanilla
modules and no user-space].

wrt to throttling inbound traffic: I have googled, inquired, and seen
non-vanilla qos modules but have not found an authority with which to
ask a few very specific  questions about ingress.

this means that inbound traffic is not throttled and i just take it easy
on multithreaded transfers.

goals:
run 5-10% headroom inbound at all times for voip (and similar realtime
udp streaming) on broadband, inbound and outbound.  This reduces
upstream packet-queuing which can postpone delivery of voip packets

ideal solutions leading to the goal:
1) delay TCP packets, never drop.  so far I haven't found an *tables
vanilla kernel module which documents the delay facility of a packet
class.  the collective forum may have covered more ground than I have
covered
2) monitor all conntrack'ed tcp windows, delay ACK, and shrink windows
on large numbers of descriptors in realtime
3) files of implementation fit the regex  /etc/*.d/qos (with package
deps, but no artifacts)
4) lock down the reasons why IMQ non-vanilla module/patch is the only
documented sane inbound qos filter on googled sources and why not to
treat TUN vanilla module is not an identical facility...

The answer to my unfinished questions may exist in places I haven't
turned over, however, testing the variations of inbound and outbound qos
configs is a slow process with alot of phone downtime and advanced
router side-effects leading to reboots.

Jim
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