[gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
recruiting people to work on it? I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
those two are already...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Fluxbox, shell tools)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

I think it is supposed to be a cywgin version with portage... isn't it?


On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:30:40 +0000, Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
> charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
> recruiting people to work on it? I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
> this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
> far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
> there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
> those two are already...
> 
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Fluxbox, shell tools)
> Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
> Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global  Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Patrick Dawson]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
> charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
> recruiting people to work on it? I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
> this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
> far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
> there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
> those two are already...

I think Patrick Lauer is the only one who's actually doing stuff with 
Gentoo/Cygwin at the moment, so ask him. Judging by the extreme lack of activity 
on the gentoo-cygwin list, I don't think it's nearly at the stage where 
recruitment should start.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[tchiwam]

Patrick Dawson wrote:

> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
>> charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
>> recruiting people to work on it? I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
>> this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
>> far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
>> there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
>> those two are already...
>
>
> I think Patrick Lauer is the only one who's actually doing stuff with 
> Gentoo/Cygwin at the moment, so ask him. Judging by the extreme lack 
> of activity on the gentoo-cygwin list, I don't think it's nearly at 
> the stage where recruitment should start.


I would think this port would potentially open the biggest market to 
gentoo, and the scariest one too...

In order I would say:
-Learn about OSX and "system provided services"
-Take a look at the BSD and OSX to see if there is QC things that would 
be usefull to bring over.
 
Unless there is a team really needed it, I would wait until the 2 point 
have stabilised and feel comfortable.


Tchiwam
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Patrick Lauer]

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On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 11:13 +0200, tchiwam wrote:
> I would think this port would potentially open the biggest market to 
> gentoo, and the scariest one too...
Not really.
Cygwin is so horribly broken in some respects that sometimes I think a
complete rewrite would be easier ...
(e.g. broken linker, broken pathname handling, ...)

> In order I would say:
> -Learn about OSX and "system provided services"
OSX is BSD. Windows is windows.
The base of OSX is mostly usable for Portage, the base of Windows has
nothing in common with Unix. 

> -Take a look at the BSD and OSX to see if there is QC things that would 
> be usefull to bring over.
Gentoo/BSD has led to some nice portage modifications, but Cygwin would
need some really weird adaptations. I doubt that much could be
transferred from the BSD porting.

Having Portage on Win32 would be really neat if only from a PR point of
view, there seems to be some interest (mainly because cygwin has no
concept of package managment), but it won't be end-user friendly and
useful for a long time.

Patrick


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

tchiwam wrote:

> Patrick Dawson wrote:
>
>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
>>> charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
>>> recruiting people to work on it? I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
>>> this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
>>> far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
>>> there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
>>> those two are already...
>>
>>
>>
>> I think Patrick Lauer is the only one who's actually doing stuff with 
>> Gentoo/Cygwin at the moment, so ask him. Judging by the extreme lack 
>> of activity on the gentoo-cygwin list, I don't think it's nearly at 
>> the stage where recruitment should start.
>
>
>
> I would think this port would potentially open the biggest market to 
> gentoo, and the scariest one too...

I'm not sure I agree that the market is either big or scary. CygWin is a 
niche -- Linux folk constrained by corporate policies to run Windows; a 
fast way to get some open source tools up and running on a Windows 
system until a native port is available. It *isn't* dual boot, and it 
*isn't* VMWare Workstation. It *is*, however, gcc, grep, perl, sort, 
xorg-x11, guile, ruby, apache, postgres, clisp, etc., essentially all 
compatible with other GNU-based environments.

I work in a mixed Windows/Linux environment. Out of perhaps 150 - 200 
software engineers, two that I know of are using CygWin -- myself and 
another engineer on the same team that builds the same tools I do. I'm 
sort of a "Johnny Appleseed" of tools where I work; I test out stuff 
like Gentoo, CygWin, R, ns/nam, etc. at home and sneak them into the lab. :)

>
> In order I would say:
> -Learn about OSX and "system provided services"

I've come within a gnat's eyebrow of buying a Macintosh on several 
occasions, mostly because there are quite a few music tools that only 
run there. However, those tools, or their open source "equivalents", are 
mostly available under GNU/Linux. When I buy a 64-bit machine I'll take 
a look at both Macs and AMD-64s (and Intel 64-bit chips if they have 
anything in my price range). In any event, surely OSX is a bigger market 
than CygWin.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Patrick Lauer]

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On Mon, 2005-02-21 at 21:01 -0500, Patrick Dawson wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
> > charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
> > recruiting people to work on it? 
At the moment the project is in hibernation.
Portage is a moving target, and some parts of cygwin are not really
useful for Gentoo-style compilation
(e.g. the linker dies after about 30 program installations)

> I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
> > this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
> > far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
> > there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
> > those two are already...
Well ... it was a thing I did because it scratched an itch I had.
I don't mind if it won't be integrated into mainline Gentoo for a looong
time ...

> I think Patrick Lauer is the only one who's actually doing stuff with 
> Gentoo/Cygwin at the moment, so ask him. Judging by the extreme lack of activity 
> on the gentoo-cygwin list, I don't think it's nearly at the stage where 
> recruitment should start.
And there won't be any recruitment until there's some significant
progress. Even the debian/win32 project has run dry.
If people are really interested in getting Portage/Cygwin working and
want to invest some time they can mail me offlist and I'll see how I can
help them get a better experience with Portage on Cygwin.

Patrick

P.S. Small factoid: Starting portage on Win98 causes an immediate
restart ...

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Ned Ludd]

On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 13:32 +0100, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-02-21 at 21:01 -0500, Patrick Dawson wrote:
> > Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
> > > charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
> > > recruiting people to work on it? 
> At the moment the project is in hibernation.
> Portage is a moving target, and some parts of cygwin are not really
> useful for Gentoo-style compilation
> (e.g. the linker dies after about 30 program installations)
> 
> > I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
> > > this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
> > > far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
> > > there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
> > > those two are already...
> Well ... it was a thing I did because it scratched an itch I had.
> I don't mind if it won't be integrated into mainline Gentoo for a looong
> time ...
> 
> > I think Patrick Lauer is the only one who's actually doing stuff with 
> > Gentoo/Cygwin at the moment, so ask him. Judging by the extreme lack of activity 
> > on the gentoo-cygwin list, I don't think it's nearly at the stage where 
> > recruitment should start.

> And there won't be any recruitment until there's some significant
> progress. 

How about never. The complexity that this would add and the type of
crowd it would bring is just far to lame for mainstream Gentoo.

> Even the debian/win32 project has run dry.

> If people are really interested in getting Portage/Cygwin working and
> want to invest some time they can mail me offlist and I'll see how I can
> help them get a better experience with Portage on Cygwin.

Great please keep it as an external overlay project.

Here is a list of things we can support properly.
If it's not listed here then we _Gentoo_ have no business trying to
support it.

supported BFD targets:

elf32-i386 coff-a29k-big a.out.adobe aix5coff64-rs6000 a.out-zero-big
a.out-mips-little epoc-pe-arm-big epoc-pe-arm-little epoc-pei-arm-big
epoc-pei-arm-little coff-arm-big coff-arm-little a.out-arm-netbsd
pe-arm-big pe-arm-little pei-arm-big pei-arm-little b.out.big
b.out.little efi-app-ia32 efi-app-ia64 elf32-avr elf32-big elf32-bigarc
elf32-bigarm-oabi elf32-bigarm elf32-bigarm-symbian elf32-bigmips
elf32-cr16c elf32-cris elf32-crx elf32-d10v elf32-d30v elf32-dlx
elf32-fr30 elf32-frv elf32-frvfdpic elf32-h8300 elf32-hppa-linux
elf32-hppa-netbsd elf32-hppa elf32-i370 elf32-i386-freebsd
elf32-i860-little elf32-i860 elf32-i960 elf32-ia64-hpux-big elf32-ip2k
elf32-iq2000 elf32-little elf32-littlearc elf32-littlearm-oabi
elf32-littlearm elf32-littlearm-symbian elf32-littlemips elf32-m32r
elf32-m32rle elf32-m32r-linux elf32-m32rle-linux elf32-m68hc11
elf32-m68hc12 elf32-m68k elf32-m88k elf32-mcore-big elf32-mcore-little
elf32-mn10200 elf32-mn10300 elf32-msp430 elf32-nbigmips
elf32-nlittlemips elf32-ntradbigmips elf32-ntradlittlemips
elf32-openrisc elf32-or32 elf32-pj elf32-pjl elf32-powerpc
elf32-powerpcle elf32-s390 elf32-sh elf32-shbig-linux elf32-shl
elf32-shl-symbian elf32-sh-linux elf32-shl-nbsd elf32-sh-nbsd elf32-sh64
elf32-sh64l elf32-sh64l-nbsd elf32-sh64-nbsd elf32-sh64-linux
elf32-sh64big-linux elf32-sparc elf32-tradbigmips elf32-tradlittlemips
elf32-us-cris elf32-v850 elf32-vax elf32-xstormy16 elf32-xtensa-be
elf32-xtensa-le elf64-alpha-freebsd elf64-alpha elf64-big elf64-bigmips
elf64-hppa-linux elf64-hppa elf64-ia64-big elf64-ia64-hpux-big
elf64-ia64-little elf64-little elf64-littlemips elf64-mmix elf64-powerpc
elf64-powerpcle elf64-s390 elf64-sh64 elf64-sh64l elf64-sh64l-nbsd
elf64-sh64-nbsd elf64-sh64-linux elf64-sh64big-linux elf64-sparc
elf64-tradbigmips elf64-tradlittlemips elf64-x86-64 mmo pe-powerpc
pei-powerpc pe-powerpcle pei-powerpcle a.out-cris demo64 ecoff-bigmips
ecoff-biglittlemips ecoff-littlemips ecoff-littlealpha coff-go32
coff-go32-exe coff-h8300 coff-h8500 a.out-hp300hpux a.out-i386
a.out-i386-bsd coff-i386 a.out-i386-freebsd a.out-i386-lynx
coff-i386-lynx msdos a.out-i386-netbsd i386os9k pe-i386 pei-i386
coff-i860 coff-Intel-big coff-Intel-little ieee coff-m68k coff-m68k-un
a.out-m68k-lynx coff-m68k-lynx a.out-m68k-netbsd coff-m68k-sysv
coff-m88kbcs a.out-m88k-mach3 a.out-m88k-openbsd mach-o-be mach-o-le
mach-o-fat pe-mcore-big pe-mcore-little pei-mcore-big pei-mcore-little
pe-mips pei-mips a.out-newsos3 nlm32-alpha nlm32-i386 nlm32-powerpc
nlm32-sparc coff-or32-big a.out-pc532-mach a.out-ns32k-netbsd
a.out-pdp11 pef pef-xlib ppcboot aixcoff64-rs6000 aixcoff-rs6000
coff-sh-small coff-sh coff-shl-small coff-shl pe-shl pei-shl coff-sparc
a.out-sparc-little a.out-sparc-linux a.out-sparc-lynx coff-sparc-lynx
a.out-sparc-netbsd a.out-sunos-big sym a.out-tic30 coff-tic30
coff0-beh-c54x coff0-c54x coff1-beh-c54x coff1-c54x coff2-beh-c54x
coff2-c54x coff-tic80 a.out-vax-bsd a.out-vax-netbsd a.out-vax1k-netbsd
versados vms-alpha vms-vax coff-w65 coff-we32k coff-z8k elf32-am33lin
srec symbolsrec tekhex binary ihex trad-core


> Patrick
> 
> P.S. Small factoid: Starting portage on Win98 causes an immediate
> restart ...
-- 
Ned Ludd <solar@gentoo.org>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Ned Ludd wrote:
> > If people are really interested in getting Portage/Cygwin working and
> > want to invest some time they can mail me offlist and I'll see how I can
> > help them get a better experience with Portage on Cygwin.
> 
> Great please keep it as an external overlay project.
> 
> Here is a list of things we can support properly.
> If it's not listed here then we _Gentoo_ have no business trying to
> support it.
> 
> supported BFD targets:
[snip]

# file q821982.exe # it's a microsoft patch I had lying around
q821982.exe: MS-DOS executable (EXE), OS/2 or MS Windows
# objdump -f q821982.exe 
q821982.exe:     file format efi-app-ia32
architecture: i386, flags 0x0000010a:
EXEC_P, HAS_DEBUG, D_PAGED

efi-app-ia32 is on your BFD target list, so by logical inverse of your
statement, we do have business trying to support it.

However I will concur that until there is sufficent demand (and I agree this is
very hard to measure), getting Gentoo/Cygwin added to the tree probably won't
happen.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
E-Mail     : robbat2@orbis-terrarum.net
Home Page  : http://www.orbis-terrarum.net/?l=people.robbat2
ICQ#       : 30269588 or 41961639
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[Jim Northrup]

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># file q821982.exe # it's a microsoft patch I had lying around
>q821982.exe: MS-DOS executable (EXE), OS/2 or MS Windows
># objdump -f q821982.exe 
>q821982.exe:     file format efi-app-ia32
>architecture: i386, flags 0x0000010a:
>EXEC_P, HAS_DEBUG, D_PAGED
>
>efi-app-ia32 is on your BFD target list, so by logical inverse of your
>statement, we do have business trying to support it.
>
>However I will concur that until there is sufficent demand (and I agree this is
>very hard to measure), getting Gentoo/Cygwin added to the tree probably won't
>happen.
>
for those who like cygwin and gentoo but are not reading gentoo-dev, 
there is likely no demand.

even though I don't have a windows machine, I'm salivating at the thought.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo/Cygwin?

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

>Does anyone have any information on what Gentoo/Cygwin is? Who is in
>charge of this, and is it really at the stage where we should be
>recruiting people to work on it? I'm *extremely* wary of the idea of
>this kind of thing being committed without prior discussion -- there's
>far more difference between anything we currently have and Cygwin than
>there is between osx or bsd and linux-gnu, and we know how much work
>those two are already...
>
>  
>
I'm on the Gentoo/CygWin mailing list; I'm probably responsible for 
whatever small interest in Gentoo running on CygWin there is in the user 
community :). I'd certainly use it if available, and I'd certain test it 
thoroughly. But it wouldn't be the end of civilzation as *I* know it if 
nobody worked on it; I spend a lot more time, at home anyway, with a 
*real* Gentoo environment, and it won't make any difference at all to 
the Red Hat (and Windows) bigots where I work.

CygWin is my "command line of choice" on the Windows systems at work. I 
haven't gone so far as to mount a CAPP (CygWin/Apache/Postgres/PHP) 
server with it, but I just might someday.
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