[gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Ivan Yosifov]

Hello Everyone,

First of all - this is just an idea, if my impressions are wrong -
pardon. 
It is my impression that gentoo has way too many mailing lists wich by
themselves are not very active. For example I am a
gentoo-desktop-research subscriber for mounths and have not recived a
single message. 
I further believe that developer issues are always just developer
issues. A java-plugin can expose a browser bug. A ppc specific problem
my be a bug in the common kernel source. There is little reason for
having a dozen separate lists when the issues discussed on these lists
are related. As of now for a developer to have a full grasp of what
ideas are flying about and what problems bother the users most he has to
subscribe to ALL lists which is a lot of subscibe-me mails. 
Imagine a PPC user with security problem in the java plugin. Where can
he discus his problem ? On gentoo-desktop, gentoo-security, gentoo-dev,
gentoo-ppc-dev, gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java or somewhere else? Having
so many lists with so deeply connected topics is confusing and a waste
of valuable communication resources.
I propose the following. There should be a gentoo-announce list for
GLSA,release announces and whatever everyone must be aware of. There
should be a gentoo-dev for all development related issues (users having
problems go here). And there should be a gentoo-user for users that need
guidance (like how do I do this,where is that...).
Naturally the traffic on the dev and user list can get high. But no one
forces the PPC dev to read the X.org threads so this should not be a
problem.
Posting to Bugzilla (73642) as an RFE and to dev as an RFC. 

Ivan Yosifov.


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Simon Stelling]

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Hi Ivan,

Ivan Yosifov wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> First of all - this is just an idea, if my impressions are wrong -
> pardon. 
> It is my impression that gentoo has way too many mailing lists wich by
> themselves are not very active. For example I am a
> gentoo-desktop-research subscriber for mounths and have not recived a
> single message. 

Yes, we have a lot of mailing lists. No, most of them aren't that 
active, but i don't care if there is much traffic. I fact, i thank God 
there is not so much traffic. I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
relevant to me.

> I further believe that developer issues are always just developer
> issues. A java-plugin can expose a browser bug. A ppc specific problem
> my be a bug in the common kernel source. There is little reason for
> having a dozen separate lists when the issues discussed on these lists
> are related. As of now for a developer to have a full grasp of what
> ideas are flying about and what problems bother the users most he has to
> subscribe to ALL lists which is a lot of subscibe-me mails.

If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin, it's 
quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
and CC amd64@.

> Imagine a PPC user with security problem in the java plugin. Where can
> he discus his problem ? On gentoo-desktop, gentoo-security, gentoo-dev,
> gentoo-ppc-dev, gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java or somewhere else? Having
> so many lists with so deeply connected topics is confusing and a waste
> of valuable communication resources.

I agree, there are cases that are deeply connected, but i don't think a 
gentoo-problems list would make it better, because you just can't read 
every mail you get. You read what seems important to you, and that's it. 
I don't want to filter 90% of the mails i get out and read the oder 10%, 
finding out that only 5% are really what i wanted to read ;)

> I propose the following. There should be a gentoo-announce list for
> GLSA,release announces and whatever everyone must be aware of. There
> should be a gentoo-dev for all development related issues (users having
> problems go here). And there should be a gentoo-user for users that need
> guidance (like how do I do this,where is that...).

*This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. The 
only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
(gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.

> Naturally the traffic on the dev and user list can get high. But no one
> forces the PPC dev to read the X.org threads so this should not be a
> problem.

Sure. But it forces the PPC dev to filter them out, and that takes more 
time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
(well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))

In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution will 
bring us the expected improvements.

Greetings,

blubb

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Ivan Yosifov]

Hi blubb,

> I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
> counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
> I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
> relevant to me.

I agree that no one wants to get too much irrelevant mail. However if
there is a single dev list where improvements (and not user problems)
are discussed there will usually be several threads that just keep
growing. AFAIK Thunderbird (which you appear to be using) supports
message folding and threading. So if there are a dozen messages under
the XOrg message tree you can quickly tell that they are not for you. I
mean that just because there are 100 messages more , does not mean you
will need more than 10 seconds to filter them all.

> If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin,it's 
> quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
> important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
> bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
> amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
> most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
> and CC amd64@.

Ok , if concrete problems are discussed in the Bugzilla (the current
practice I believe) the less the chance you will get unwanted mail.

> *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. 

I agree. What I meant was that sometimes users have ideas about
improving Gentoo (apart from fix bug #####). And such ideas (i think)
are for gentoo-dev.

> The only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
> (gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.

Mind your own example with app-foo/bar-1.0 on amd64. Most bugs (and
problems) are arch independent. Especially problems like "How do I use
this app" , or "where is this in the gnome menu". And these are the
problems a user is likely to ask help for. You can't expect form a user
to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows is that gaim can not
connect. I believe that ppc,amd64,x86,etc users (and lists ) have more
experience to share than arch specific stuff. 

> time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))

I understand. However something currently going on the java list may
very well have to do with amd64 , and you may never know about it.

> In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution
> will bring us the expected improvements.

Well , this is an RFC. Fell encouraged to suggest other schemes to
improve communication in the gentoo world.

Cheers,

Ivan Yosifov.

On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 13:01 +0100, Simon Stelling wrote:
> Hi Ivan,
> 
> Ivan Yosifov wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> > 
> > First of all - this is just an idea, if my impressions are wrong -
> > pardon. 
> > It is my impression that gentoo has way too many mailing lists wich by
> > themselves are not very active. For example I am a
> > gentoo-desktop-research subscriber for mounths and have not recived a
> > single message. 
> 
> Yes, we have a lot of mailing lists. No, most of them aren't that 
> active, but i don't care if there is much traffic. I fact, i thank God 
> there is not so much traffic. I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
> counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
> I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
> relevant to me.
> 
> > I further believe that developer issues are always just developer
> > issues. A java-plugin can expose a browser bug. A ppc specific problem
> > my be a bug in the common kernel source. There is little reason for
> > having a dozen separate lists when the issues discussed on these lists
> > are related. As of now for a developer to have a full grasp of what
> > ideas are flying about and what problems bother the users most he has to
> > subscribe to ALL lists which is a lot of subscibe-me mails.
> 
> If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin, it's 
> quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
> important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
> bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
> amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
> most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
> and CC amd64@.
> 
> > Imagine a PPC user with security problem in the java plugin. Where can
> > he discus his problem ? On gentoo-desktop, gentoo-security, gentoo-dev,
> > gentoo-ppc-dev, gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java or somewhere else? Having
> > so many lists with so deeply connected topics is confusing and a waste
> > of valuable communication resources.
> 
> I agree, there are cases that are deeply connected, but i don't think a 
> gentoo-problems list would make it better, because you just can't read 
> every mail you get. You read what seems important to you, and that's it. 
> I don't want to filter 90% of the mails i get out and read the oder 10%, 
> finding out that only 5% are really what i wanted to read ;)
> 
> > I propose the following. There should be a gentoo-announce list for
> > GLSA,release announces and whatever everyone must be aware of. There
> > should be a gentoo-dev for all development related issues (users having
> > problems go here). And there should be a gentoo-user for users that need
> > guidance (like how do I do this,where is that...).
> 
> *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. The 
> only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
> (gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.
> 
> > Naturally the traffic on the dev and user list can get high. But no one
> > forces the PPC dev to read the X.org threads so this should not be a
> > problem.
> 
> Sure. But it forces the PPC dev to filter them out, and that takes more 
> time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))
> 
> In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution will 
> bring us the expected improvements.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> blubb


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Simon Stelling]

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Ivan Yosifov wrote:

> I agree that no one wants to get too much irrelevant mail. However if
> there is a single dev list where improvements (and not user problems)
> are discussed there will usually be several threads that just keep
> growing. AFAIK Thunderbird (which you appear to be using) supports
> message folding and threading. So if there are a dozen messages under
> the XOrg message tree you can quickly tell that they are not for you. I
> mean that just because there are 100 messages more , does not mean you
> will need more than 10 seconds to filter them all.

Yes, it does, and I use it. But the problem is, that many problems 
(especially those you are talking about) are not that clearly assigned 
to one herd/project. What about a user that finds an error in our 
amd64-specific documentation? Depending on his subject (i.e. "Found 
error in doc" or "amd64 technotes contain errors") I will miss it or 
not. To ensure I don't miss them (as I don't want users feel ignored)
I'd have to read them, and that's the problem. You say: "You can't 
expect form a user to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows 
is that gaim can not connect." Of course we can't. But the user that 
can't figure that out won't write a subject like "amd64 tcp/ip stack is 
buggy", he'd write "why is gaim unable to connect?". I'd completely 
ignore this thread, because I really don't bother about gaim. Perhaps 
the gaim maintainer would figure out that this is amd64-specific, and he 
would say: "amd64-guys, could you have a look at that?". Very likely in 
the same thread, with the same (boring) subject, and I still would 
ignore it. The user would feel ignored, and that's not what anybody want.

> I agree. What I meant was that sometimes users have ideas about
> improving Gentoo (apart from fix bug #####). And such ideas (i think)
> are for gentoo-dev.

I thought you thought so. ;)

> Mind your own example with app-foo/bar-1.0 on amd64. Most bugs (and
> problems) are arch independent. Especially problems like "How do I use
> this app" , or "where is this in the gnome menu". And these are the
> problems a user is likely to ask help for. You can't expect form a user
> to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows is that gaim can not
> connect. I believe that ppc,amd64,x86,etc users (and lists ) have more
> experience to share than arch specific stuff. 

see above. This is a very good example: The error could be a 
configuration error (interfaces, firewalls, even gaim), a bug in gaim or 
a bug in any other part of the OS related to internet connection. 
Someone will figure out where the error really is, but the responsible 
dev most likely will miss it. It's like spam: The more spam (unwanted 
mails) you want, the higher is the risk of missing an important information.


> I understand. However something currently going on the java list may
> very well have to do with amd64 , and you may never know about it.

Right, but if a java dev finds out that it has something to do with 
amd64, he will contact us. And he will do that on #gentoo-amd64, 
amd64@gentoo.org or gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org, or even in a bug, but not 
on gentoo-java@gentoo.org, as he knows that most of amd64 devs don't 
read the list (i dont know if this is true or not, at least i don't ;).
If the whole thread would be on -dev, he probably would ask us to have a 
look at it in the same thread, because we're actually receiving this list.

Another aspect could be bandwith: I know there are a few devs that are 
not reading/receiving -dev because it has such a high amount of traffic. 
Not everybody has a 1MB flatrate, there are still some people that have 
to use a 32kbit dialup.

Greetings,

blubb

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Ivan Yosifov]

Hi,

OK guys , it appears that I was wrong. My impressions that too many
lists bring only confusion are only partially correct and the proposed
solution will apparently bring more problems than it will solve.
Closing bug 73642 as WONTFIX. Thanks for your comments.

Ivan Yosifov.

On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 20:31 +0100, Simon Stelling wrote:
> Ivan Yosifov wrote:
> 
> > I agree that no one wants to get too much irrelevant mail. However if
> > there is a single dev list where improvements (and not user problems)
> > are discussed there will usually be several threads that just keep
> > growing. AFAIK Thunderbird (which you appear to be using) supports
> > message folding and threading. So if there are a dozen messages under
> > the XOrg message tree you can quickly tell that they are not for you. I
> > mean that just because there are 100 messages more , does not mean you
> > will need more than 10 seconds to filter them all.
> 
> Yes, it does, and I use it. But the problem is, that many problems 
> (especially those you are talking about) are not that clearly assigned 
> to one herd/project. What about a user that finds an error in our 
> amd64-specific documentation? Depending on his subject (i.e. "Found 
> error in doc" or "amd64 technotes contain errors") I will miss it or 
> not. To ensure I don't miss them (as I don't want users feel ignored)
> I'd have to read them, and that's the problem. You say: "You can't 
> expect form a user to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows 
> is that gaim can not connect." Of course we can't. But the user that 
> can't figure that out won't write a subject like "amd64 tcp/ip stack is 
> buggy", he'd write "why is gaim unable to connect?". I'd completely 
> ignore this thread, because I really don't bother about gaim. Perhaps 
> the gaim maintainer would figure out that this is amd64-specific, and he 
> would say: "amd64-guys, could you have a look at that?". Very likely in 
> the same thread, with the same (boring) subject, and I still would 
> ignore it. The user would feel ignored, and that's not what anybody want.
> 
> > I agree. What I meant was that sometimes users have ideas about
> > improving Gentoo (apart from fix bug #####). And such ideas (i think)
> > are for gentoo-dev.
> 
> I thought you thought so. ;)
> 
> > Mind your own example with app-foo/bar-1.0 on amd64. Most bugs (and
> > problems) are arch independent. Especially problems like "How do I use
> > this app" , or "where is this in the gnome menu". And these are the
> > problems a user is likely to ask help for. You can't expect form a user
> > to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows is that gaim can not
> > connect. I believe that ppc,amd64,x86,etc users (and lists ) have more
> > experience to share than arch specific stuff. 
> 
> see above. This is a very good example: The error could be a 
> configuration error (interfaces, firewalls, even gaim), a bug in gaim or 
> a bug in any other part of the OS related to internet connection. 
> Someone will figure out where the error really is, but the responsible 
> dev most likely will miss it. It's like spam: The more spam (unwanted 
> mails) you want, the higher is the risk of missing an important information.
> 
> 
> > I understand. However something currently going on the java list may
> > very well have to do with amd64 , and you may never know about it.
> 
> Right, but if a java dev finds out that it has something to do with 
> amd64, he will contact us. And he will do that on #gentoo-amd64, 
> amd64@gentoo.org or gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org, or even in a bug, but not 
> on gentoo-java@gentoo.org, as he knows that most of amd64 devs don't 
> read the list (i dont know if this is true or not, at least i don't ;).
> If the whole thread would be on -dev, he probably would ask us to have a 
> look at it in the same thread, because we're actually receiving this list.
> 
> Another aspect could be bandwith: I know there are a few devs that are 
> not reading/receiving -dev because it has such a high amount of traffic. 
> Not everybody has a 1MB flatrate, there are still some people that have 
> to use a 32kbit dialup.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> blubb



--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 15:18 +0200, Ivan Yosifov wrote:
> I agree that no one wants to get too much irrelevant mail. However if
> there is a single dev list where improvements (and not user problems)
> are discussed there will usually be several threads that just keep
> growing. AFAIK Thunderbird (which you appear to be using) supports
> message folding and threading. So if there are a dozen messages under
> the XOrg message tree you can quickly tell that they are not for you. I
> mean that just because there are 100 messages more , does not mean you
> will need more than 10 seconds to filter them all.

You must not have been on this list long.  Threads on this list tend to
"wander" from their original topic all the time.  In fact, many times a
thread seems completely unimportant to you, but 80 messages in, somebody
brings up something that directly affects you.

Having fewer, more on-topic emails is a plus, as it makes it easier to
search through them for things that relate directly to you.  I
definitely would not want to see every email that goes through
gentoo-ppc or gentoo-releng or gentoo-desktop all in one mailing list,
as it would present a ton of extra noise.

> > *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. 
> 
> I agree. What I meant was that sometimes users have ideas about
> improving Gentoo (apart from fix bug #####). And such ideas (i think)
> are for gentoo-dev.

Correct, but that isn't what you said at first.  That is definitely a
development-related issue and should be on this list.  Any
support-related issues should go to gentoo-user, or to bugs.gentoo.org
for the problem to be fixed.

> Mind your own example with app-foo/bar-1.0 on amd64. Most bugs (and
> problems) are arch independent. Especially problems like "How do I use
> this app" , or "where is this in the gnome menu". And these are the
> problems a user is likely to ask help for. You can't expect form a user
> to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows is that gaim can not
> connect. I believe that ppc,amd64,x86,etc users (and lists ) have more
> experience to share than arch specific stuff.

Actually, on some of the more exotic arch lists, there is very little
arch-independent stuff simply because they may or may not be a fully
supported platform on Linux.  Since I have started using non-x86
machines, I have noticed a dramatic difference in the way I view things.
Also, simply posting as much information as possible to a bug report
usually gets it to the right people.  There have been many bugs that
have had to have been passed around between various groups before the
true problem was discovered.  Having all of that extra noise on a single
mailing list wouldn't improve things, as the more noise there is, the
less likely people are to read through everything to see if it is
relevant to them.

> > time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> > really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> > (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))
> 
> I understand. However something currently going on the java list may
> very well have to do with amd64 , and you may never know about it.

Because none of the java guys would ever suggest "that might be an amd64
problem", right?  I'm playing Devil's advocate here.  It is very rare
that you see an arch-specific problem show up that doesn't get addressed
properly.  After all, if it works for me and I'm on sparc and x86 and it
doesn't work for you and you're on amd64, with all other things being
equal, I would think it is an arch-specific bug.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Operational/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Ivan Yosifov]

Hi blubb,

> I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
> counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
> I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
> relevant to me.

I agree that no one wants to get too much irrelevant mail. However if
there is a single dev list where improvements (and not user problems)
are discussed there will usually be several threads that just keep
growing. AFAIK Thunderbird (which you appear to be using) supports
message folding and threading. So if there are a dozen messages under
the XOrg message tree you can quickly tell that they are not for you. I
mean that just because there are 100 messages more , does not mean you
will need more than 10 seconds to filter them all.

> If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin,it's 
> quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
> important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
> bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
> amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
> most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
> and CC amd64@.

Ok , if concrete problems are discussed in the Bugzilla (the current
practice I believe) the less the chance you will get unwanted mail.

> *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. 

I agree. What I meant was that sometimes users have ideas about
improving Gentoo (apart from fix bug #####). And such ideas (i think)
are for gentoo-dev.

> The only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
> (gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.

Mind your own example with app-foo/bar-1.0 on amd64. Most bugs (and
problems) are arch independent. Especially problems like "How do I use
this app" , or "where is this in the gnome menu". And these are the
problems a user is likely to ask help for. You can't expect form a user
to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows is that gaim can not
connect. I believe that ppc,amd64,x86,etc users (and lists ) have more
experience to share than arch specific stuff. 

> time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))

I understand. However something currently going on the java list may
very well have to do with amd64 , and you may never know about it.

> In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution
> will bring us the expected improvements.

Well , this is an RFC. Fell encouraged to suggest other schemes to
improve communication in the gentoo world.

Cheers,

Ivan Yosifov.

On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 13:01 +0100, Simon Stelling wrote:
> Hi Ivan,
> 
> Ivan Yosifov wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> > 
> > First of all - this is just an idea, if my impressions are wrong -
> > pardon. 
> > It is my impression that gentoo has way too many mailing lists wich by
> > themselves are not very active. For example I am a
> > gentoo-desktop-research subscriber for mounths and have not recived a
> > single message. 
> 
> Yes, we have a lot of mailing lists. No, most of them aren't that 
> active, but i don't care if there is much traffic. I fact, i thank God 
> there is not so much traffic. I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
> counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
> I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
> relevant to me.
> 
> > I further believe that developer issues are always just developer
> > issues. A java-plugin can expose a browser bug. A ppc specific problem
> > my be a bug in the common kernel source. There is little reason for
> > having a dozen separate lists when the issues discussed on these lists
> > are related. As of now for a developer to have a full grasp of what
> > ideas are flying about and what problems bother the users most he has to
> > subscribe to ALL lists which is a lot of subscibe-me mails.
> 
> If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin, it's 
> quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
> important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
> bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
> amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
> most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
> and CC amd64@.
> 
> > Imagine a PPC user with security problem in the java plugin. Where can
> > he discus his problem ? On gentoo-desktop, gentoo-security, gentoo-dev,
> > gentoo-ppc-dev, gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java or somewhere else? Having
> > so many lists with so deeply connected topics is confusing and a waste
> > of valuable communication resources.
> 
> I agree, there are cases that are deeply connected, but i don't think a 
> gentoo-problems list would make it better, because you just can't read 
> every mail you get. You read what seems important to you, and that's it. 
> I don't want to filter 90% of the mails i get out and read the oder 10%, 
> finding out that only 5% are really what i wanted to read ;)
> 
> > I propose the following. There should be a gentoo-announce list for
> > GLSA,release announces and whatever everyone must be aware of. There
> > should be a gentoo-dev for all development related issues (users having
> > problems go here). And there should be a gentoo-user for users that need
> > guidance (like how do I do this,where is that...).
> 
> *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. The 
> only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
> (gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.
> 
> > Naturally the traffic on the dev and user list can get high. But no one
> > forces the PPC dev to read the X.org threads so this should not be a
> > problem.
> 
> Sure. But it forces the PPC dev to filter them out, and that takes more 
> time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))
> 
> In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution will 
> bring us the expected improvements.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> blubb


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