From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7609 invoked from network); 19 May 2004 18:41:10 +0000 Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (156.56.111.197) by parrot.ussg.indiana.edu with SMTP; 19 May 2004 18:41:10 +0000 Received: from parrot.ussg.indiana.edu ([156.56.111.196] helo=parrot.gentoo.org) by smtp.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BQW05-0006Es-G1 for arch-gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 18:41:09 +0000 Received: (qmail 21084 invoked by uid 89); 19 May 2004 18:41:09 +0000 Mailing-List: contact gentoo-dev-help@gentoo.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Received: (qmail 28936 invoked from network); 19 May 2004 18:41:08 +0000 Message-ID: <40ABAA3D.9020704@gentoo.org> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 13:41:01 -0500 From: Joshua Brindle User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stuart@gentoo.org CC: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org References: <200405180034.30388.stuart@gentoo.org> <200405182108.42231.stuart@gentoo.org> <1084966200.9124.18.camel@rivendell> <200405191906.17673.stuart@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <200405191906.17673.stuart@gentoo.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-web-user] Hardened PHP now in Gentoo X-Archives-Salt: 88729eb3-061a-4ac4-bc55-db6b883e40c9 X-Archives-Hash: 0b393f2d00ca309cf746beb332a16fe8 *sigh* this thread is already out of control but all the hardened devs agree with the use of the hardened flag. It wouldn't take choice away, anyone that ways hardened-php without the other hardened stuff can use /etc/portage/ .. that is why it's there, to help advanced users select use flags more granularly.. Stuart Herbert wrote: > On Wednesday 19 May 2004 12:30, foser wrote: > >>The second time you mention choice. I guess we know what Gentoo is about >>by now, the 'choice' argument is too often used just to end criticism. > > > If people are arguing against additional choice, then I guess that at least > some devs don't get that this is an important part of Gentoo. > You are confusing choice with excessive work, having 500 use flags *does not* help the choice cause, it increases work and therby decreases choice. > > Where do we have choice for the sake of it? > > Reducing choice does not always increase simplicity. > > heh, you name it :) but again, additional use flags *does not* equal more choice, there is a delicate balance >>I wasn't too happy with the introducation of local USE flags for just >>the reasons that are becoming a problem now. Too much flags, everybody >>adds them at will without good reasons. > > > USE flags allow users to switch on (and off I guess) optional settings. > > What would you prefer? > > a) hardened-php patch not available at all in Gentoo > b) hardened-php patch always included > > Because those are the only choices you are leaving. > that couldn't be more incorrect, check top point > > The installation manual used to cover just one architecture. > > I'm sure our users appreciate the vast improvements that the handbook > contributors have delivered since those early days. > > >>You have the choice. The real power is the easy way in which you can >>adapt it to your needs and the simplicity of doing so. > > > Which is exactly what USE flags currently provide - until someone figures out > a better way to deliver the same amount of choice. > > >>Huge loads of nobody-ever-uses them options don't help one bit. > > > Just because you don't use them, don't assume that no-one else finds them > useful. > But we can't help 100% of people, we can help the majority, anything more is more work for us, and more work for the vast majority of users. why should 90-95% of the users have to sift through hundreds of use flags that 5-10% of users use? It doesn't make sense. There are more things that gentoo offers than choice, just yesterday Stuart and I had a conversation about webapp-config and how convenient that is, and how other distros don't use it. We offer innovation and easy system administration. Choice is a primary concern but not that the expense of everything else, please keep this in mind. Joshua Brindle -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list